N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by DarkSephiroth

I always thought O2/CO2 are on a scale like CA/ALK. The more CA you have, the lower the ALK is. So having more CO2 will reduce O2. So by increasing O2 level it will lower CO2?

At this point, from reading everyone post, im going to assumed that this theory is wrong then?

With regard to Ca, Mag, pH - Randy summarized the relationship back in June 2006 RK magazine: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

I think the point is that there are lots of different factors that effect the CO2/O2 relationship in an aquarium, if you're focusing on gas exchange, the composition of your ambient environment also plays a role. I'm sure there is a good summation out there somewhere...

SJ

[DarkSephiroth]

Yea i don't know why this tank is having a hard time keeping PH at 8.3 ish. My last tank had no problem with it, i checked it at night, noon, day and its hovering at 8.2-8.4 all the time.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I always thought O2/CO2 are on a scale like CA/ALK. The more CA you have, the lower the ALK is. So having more CO2 will reduce O2. So by increasing O2 level it will lower CO2?

At this point, from reading everyone post, im going to assumed that this theory is wrong then?

That is correct that it is wrong. They do not impact one another. The reason they sometimes move in opposite directions is that respiration uses O2 and produces CO2, and photosynthesis uses CO2 and produces O2.

But both can be high (like during the day in a highly photosynthesizing aquarium in a home with elevated air CO2 levels) and both can be low (like at night in a tank using limewater with normal home air CO2 levels), or one up and the other down.

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by DarkSephiroth

Yea i don't know why this tank is having a hard time keeping PH at 8.3 ish. My last tank had no problem with it, i checked it at night, noon, day and its hovering at 8.2-8.4 all the time.

I really believe that the low pH is a direct consequence of carbon dosing... your pellets are respirating. The more bacteria you develop, the more respiration you have in your system. During respiration; available O2 is used up, and the amount of CO2 increases. This leads to lowered pH. Surface agitation will help to liberate some of that CO2 from your aquarium, provided you don't already have an abundance of CO2 in your ambient air (lots of occupants; small space; air-tight house/building; etc could lead to this abundance of CO2).

I think that's the take away from this last page or two of discussion.... you have low pH because your tank has high CO2; because you are feeding/proliferating bacteria through carbon dosing. Solution invovles making use of (macro algae); or getting rid of (gas exchange) excess CO2.

Regards,

Sheldon

[ReefAus]

Well, I'm not so happy with the results of the BPs on my tank and it's probably due to my lack of understanding in their use. I basically followed the instructions given by the place I bought them from and my tank has never looked so bad. Details are as follows.

- Placed 1ltr of NP BPs in a RO Phosfusion 2000 reactor with a 2000ltr p/h pump with the ball valve adjusted to 3/4 on. Tank is 570lts net. (I now realise that I should have gradually introduced the pellets)
- Continually adjusted the flow to try and get the pellets turning over at the recommended rate.

Pellets have been running for about six weeks and the water has only just cleared. The anemones have totally retracted their tentacles which I have never seen happen before and the corals are looking rather sick. I've kept the water parameters within recommended ranges but to know avail. The Ph has continually been an issue to which I understand is as a result of the bacteria. So much for the product requiring less maintenance than other reactors such sulphur reactors. The reactor itself probably requires less maintenance but it introduces other issues that require more attention, so to me no benefit. If anyone has any suggestions or can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

Rgds

Steve

[purge43]

[[[ph is a factor with my particular case with using the brs bio pellets. I do not use kalk but rely strictly on brs two part. My ph was normally 8.1-8.3 lights on cycle and as low as 7.8 ( a few times 7.7)in the dark cycle. About three or four days into the start of the pellets my ph stabalized at 8.3-8.4 night and day, for a few days. My reactor is a home made device which dumps the effluent water into my sump from a heigth of about one foot. After about a week my ph slowly climbed to 8.9 during the end of the light cycle and down to 8.6 during the dark cycle. Now after about two weeks the ph is gradually coming down about a tenth of a point a day. No other changes were made and testing is done exactly the same.]]]

I am getting no replys about my post. My case seems to be the exact opposite then everyone elses. I cannot understand why my ph is going in the other direction.

[tntneon]

@purge :

-It's really looks strange that your Ph is climbing to an staggering 8.9 .
I would first check and recheck your Ph measurement if i where you
How high is your alkinity in your system ?

greetingzz tntneon

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by ReefAus

Well, I'm not so happy with the results of the BPs on my tank and it's probably due to my lack of understanding in their use. I basically followed the instructions given by the place I bought them from and my tank has never looked so bad. Details are as follows.

- Placed 1ltr of NP BPs in a RO Phosfusion 2000 reactor with a 2000ltr p/h pump with the ball valve adjusted to 3/4 on. Tank is 570lts net. (I now realise that I should have gradually introduced the pellets)
- Continually adjusted the flow to try and get the pellets turning over at the recommended rate.

Pellets have been running for about six weeks and the water has only just cleared. The anemones have totally retracted their tentacles which I have never seen happen before and the corals are looking rather sick. I've kept the water parameters within recommended ranges but to know avail. The Ph has continually been an issue to which I understand is as a result of the bacteria. So much for the product requiring less maintenance than other reactors such sulphur reactors. The reactor itself probably requires less maintenance but it introduces other issues that require more attention, so to me no benefit. If anyone has any suggestions or can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

Rgds

Steve

Please provide more details... All your parameters (particularly pH & dKH) as well as your skimmer type and size. Your tank is only 150g and if you had high levels of N & P, your livestock will be stressed due to the sudden drop/shock, as well as the probable drop in pH. Your account of the extended cloudiness reminds me of an account by someone who mentioned that if you don't run a skimmer the bacterial bloom will occur repeatedly.

Some more details re your equipment, and parameters will help us chime in.

SJ

Originally Posted by purge43

[[[ph is a factor with my particular case with using the brs bio pellets. I do not use kalk but rely strictly on brs two part. My ph was normally 8.1-8.3 lights on cycle and as low as 7.8 ( a few times 7.7)in the dark cycle. About three or four days into the start of the pellets my ph stabalized at 8.3-8.4 night and day, for a few days. My reactor is a home made device which dumps the effluent water into my sump from a heigth of about one foot. After about a week my ph slowly climbed to 8.9 during the end of the light cycle and down to 8.6 during the dark cycle. Now after about two weeks the ph is gradually coming down about a tenth of a point a day. No other changes were made and testing is done exactly the same.]]]

I am getting no replys about my post. My case seems to be the exact opposite then everyone elses. I cannot understand why my ph is going in the other direction.

Sorry Purge - guess we were waiting for someone who had a similar experience to weigh in.... I'm drawing a blank on this one... all I would suggest is perhaps to hold off on the two part, or other things individually and monitor any changes if any... you have to experiment a little I would say. Your account is certainly running against the grain of all the other reports provided so far???

Regards,

Sheldon

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am getting no replys about my post. My case seems to be the exact opposite then everyone elses. I cannot understand why my ph is going in the other direction.

It must be from something else, or from measurement error. There is no mechanism for organic carbon dosing to boost pH.

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I am getting no replys about my post. My case seems to be the exact opposite then everyone elses. I cannot understand why my ph is going in the other direction.

It must be from something else, or from measurement error. There is no mechanism for organic carbon dosing to boost pH.

I would agree 1000%..

Sounds like a case of parallax error - i.e. wrong results caused by wrong perspective; the error of misalignment...

In the very least, some component of your particular husbandry is combining with the pellets to yield the results you are finding... time to experiment with process of elimination... let us know how it turns out.

Good Luck... and congrats.. you've just been inducted to the coral reefs school of science experiments... bp division..!!

SJ

[DarkSephiroth]

Update: Not sure if its a coincident or what but after raising my power heads to the top and have it running 100% of the time instead of pulsing, my P.H is now 8.0 and i've tested every day for the past 3 days. One in the morning, one at night.

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by DarkSephiroth

Update: Not sure if its a coincident or what but after raising my power heads to the top and have it running 100% of the time instead of pulsing, my P.H is now 8.0 and i've tested every day for the past 3 days. One in the morning, one at night.

coincident with move of powerheads... aba-solutely
reason.... breaking up surface tension; facilitating gas exchange; CO2 out - [likely] O2 in.... pH up; fish and coral happy-er.

Good work to correct.

SJ

[HCO]

I have a 90g and I'd like to start with the biopellets, I have a 2LF 150 reactor but I read that it won't help much. What's the best reactor to run them and which pump should I use, thanks!

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by HCO

I have a 90g and I'd like to start with the biopellets, I have a 2LF 150 reactor but I read that it won't help much. What's the best reactor to run them and which pump should I use, thanks!

-I'm strongly for the open top reactor , being fed directly with drain(s) coming from display.
An open reactor you can stir everyday , reducing "dead spaces" within the pellets
you have to soack the pellets at least for 48 houres else they don't sink .
when you first start up the reactor i would slowly increasse flow , because to much flow may blow the pellets in your sump or skimmer.

greetingzz tntneon

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I recommend the BR-110 Super Reef Octopus with a mag 3 pump!
This will likely work like a complete charm.
The pump will have adequate flow and the beads will neverrrr cluster
because of the round bottom design of this very, very well built
unit. The reactor will cost you about 180 bux and the pump will cost
you about 60.... for 240 plus NP pellet cost and valve cost you will be in business with a reactor
that can hold up to 800ml of NP pellets (more then you will need but it
will handle your upgrade likely) and work like a dream.


I am using the BR-140 for my 300 gallon system (just the next size up
and it works perfect!!!!!)

The beads will float for 2 days some of them due to air being stuck to
them.....(nottttttt reactor fault!!!!!!) In two days or so they will
sink and then tumble with the rest perfectly....

I recommend a ball valve so you can adjust the flow and fine tune it
to a slowwwwwwww tumble.

Exhaust the reactor to in front of your skimmer intake in sump.

I started off with 1/2 the recommended amount and then added the
other 1/2 a week later....do notttttttttt let the beads see AIR once
you have began to use them or it will kill bacteria on contact.

PM me and I will tell you where I bought mine if you wish as I do not know
what the rules are about posting company names on here etc....

Tim

[HCO]

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

I recommend the BR-110 Super Reef Octopus with a mag 3 pump!
This will likely work like a complete charm.
The pump will have adequate flow and the beads will neverrrr cluster
because of the round bottom design of this very, very well built
unit. The reactor will cost you about 180 bux and the pump will cost
you about 60.... for 240 plus NP pellet cost and valve cost you will be in business with a reactor
that can hold up to 800ml of NP pellets (more then you will need but it
will handle your upgrade likely) and work like a dream.


I am using the BR-140 for my 300 gallon system (just the next size up
and it works perfect!!!!!)

The beads will float for 2 days some of them due to air being stuck to
them.....(nottttttt reactor fault!!!!!!) In two days or so they will
sink and then tumble with the rest perfectly....

I recommend a ball valve so you can adjust the flow and fine tune it
to a slowwwwwwww tumble.

Exhaust the reactor to in front of your skimmer intake in sump.

I started off with 1/2 the recommended amount and then added the
other 1/2 a week later....do notttttttttt let the beads see AIR once
you have began to use them or it will kill bacteria on contact.

PM me and I will tell you where I bought mine if you wish as I do not know
what the rules are about posting company names on here etc....

Tim

Thanks alot Tim I replied your PM

[eaquinta]

Hello friends,
some of you know if there should be relationship between N and P.

this ratio is 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphate to be fully processed by the bacteria? ( this affirmation is correct ? )


Tato

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, that is not correct for processes that can include hypoxic areas where nitrate can be used as an oxygen source, producing N2. So the consumption of nitrate in such organic carbon dosing regimens can be a lot higher than that ratio to P.

For example, here's a cut and paste from one of my articles on nitrate:


In oxygen-containing environments, the reaction looks very similar to that shown above for plankton (ignoring phosphorus here):

organic + 175 O2 → 122 CO2 + 16 NO3- + 16 H+ + 138 H2O

where organic stands for a typical organic material ((CH2O)80(CH2)42(NH3)16). In the absence of O2, and taking the nitrogen species completely to N2 (which may happen in several reaction steps), we have the following overall reaction:

organic + 124 NO3- + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

That is from:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

[plankton99]

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

I recommend the BR-110 Super Reef .

I started off with 1/2 the recommended amount and then added the
other 1/2 a week later....do notttttttttt let the beads see AIR once
you have began to use them or it will kill bacteria on contact.

What do you mean by DO NOT LET THE BEADS SEE AIR? when you disconnect and add pellets, air will get into the reactor, or if the pump comes above the water line, aie will get into the chamber.

Are you suggesting that any air will kill bacteria and you will have to start over?

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

No, that is not correct for processes that can include hypoxic areas where nitrate can be used as an oxygen source, producing N2. So the consumption of nitrate in such organic carbon dosing regimens can be a lot higher than that ratio to P.

For example, here's a cut and paste from one of my articles on nitrate:


In oxygen-containing environments, the reaction looks very similar to that shown above for plankton (ignoring phosphorus here):

organic + 175 O2 → 122 CO2 + 16 NO3- + 16 H+ + 138 H2O

where organic stands for a typical organic material ((CH2O)80(CH2)42(NH3)16). In the absence of O2, and taking the nitrogen species completely to N2 (which may happen in several reaction steps), we have the following overall reaction:

organic + 124 NO3- + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

That is from:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

Thanks Randy... Looks like I have some reading to do!

Sheldon

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Some guy was telling me months ago that he wanted to clean out his
bio bead reactor etc..... I told him that you cannot dump those beads
out and expose them to air because if you do..you will *kill* the bacteria
that you have been trying to populate them with...To add beads just
pour them in basically but do notttttt remove the water from the existing
beads and expose them to air....the guy I talked to was going to do that.


Tim

[BuckeyeTodd]

Originally Posted by plankton99

Does anyone have this problem? I have the Reef Octopus BR-70 pellet reactor and am using Bulk reef supply pellets and they are clogging the unit.

When i first connect it the flow is a strong biol (see pic below) and then overnight the little pellets get caught in the slits at the bottom and clogs up the whole thing to where it barely boils.

Should I use another pellet? I just ordered the NP Bio Pellets from Marine depot, they seem rounder and may not clog like the BRS pellets.

This is what I ordered from Marine Depot:
http://www.marinedepot.com/NP_Biopel...FMCHNR-vi.html

This appears to be only on the small model. Tim reported on the 140 his had a different design. I just received the 110 tonight, and thankfully it had a different design(as I am running BRS pellets as well). If you can't get something easily worked out with Coral Vue, check with BRS(and explain-you sell these as a combo, and they don't work together) and have them upgrade you to the 110. I just hooked my 110 with a maxi jet 1200 and it works great, I saw your post the day after I ordered mine and was freaked out that I'd have the same problem. It gave the pellets a fast boil which I turned down with the valve that was included(I thought I had to buy my own). It is so nice not having a dead spot anymore

[Rhodes19]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

No, that is not correct for processes that can include hypoxic areas where nitrate can be used as an oxygen source, producing N2. So the consumption of nitrate in such organic carbon dosing regimens can be a lot higher than that ratio to P.

For example, here's a cut and paste from one of my articles on nitrate:


In oxygen-containing environments, the reaction looks very similar to that shown above for plankton (ignoring phosphorus here):

organic + 175 O2 → 122 CO2 + 16 NO3- + 16 H+ + 138 H2O

where organic stands for a typical organic material ((CH2O)80(CH2)42(NH3)16). In the absence of O2, and taking the nitrogen species completely to N2 (which may happen in several reaction steps), we have the following overall reaction:

organic + 124 NO3- + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

That is from:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

Thanks Randy,

I'm going to have to break out my organic chemistry books again. LOL

[eaquinta]

Thanks Randy ... in my aquarium nitrate is not a problem, but it could be a limiting nitrate a problem to lowering phosphate ?

Tato

[thebanker]

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

you cannot dump those beads
out and expose them to air because if you do..you will *kill* the bacteria
that you have been trying to populate them with

How do you know?