N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[shifty51008]

ok here is prob. a dumb suggestion. for those of us that have a hard time getting PO4 into our tanks or atleast enough of it to get the pellets to work. I have been reading alot lately about macro rocks haveing alot of PO4. would it be safe to say that if we were to add a couple of those rocks to our tank to raise the PO4 that it would be enough to get the pellets working and stay working after the rocks have been depleted? or has anyone come up with a safe way to add PO4 to the tank?

BTW I am not gonna try that yet as I just set up the BP's in place of my GFO so maybe I will have some PO4 later on.

[tmz]

pecan2phat
Registered Member



Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wallingford, CT
Posts: 3,845


Just found this from a 2009 thread, sounds like Joe's tank too:

Here is the formula which one of the large public aquarium uses:

"I have been dosing LaCl2 to the reef tank here, but at half the recommended dose rate, and also dilute it in 5 gallons of RO water, and slow drip into the sump.
Right now my dose rate has been 300ml/ 20,000 gallons, and that on average will drop my PO4's 0.10ppm/ dose. I'm using the SeaKlear Phosphate remover"

You can take the above formula and that will equate 3ml per 200 gallons of water.


Here is another link on lanthanum chloride it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...thanum+cloride

The Seakelar works fine . They package teh same procduct for pools and aquauriums . The MDS shows no impurities. I've use it a number of times.

Slow dosing via dripping upstream from a fine filtering medium to allow it to precipitate before the filter and to remove particulates is very important. It does remove PO4 quickly but can cloud a tank and kill fish and fine filter feeds as it seems to clog up there repiratory apparatuses . It dissociates to La and Cl in water . Then the La binds with PO4 and some binds with CO3 ,so it reduces alkalinity a bit.

[tmz]

Lanthaum is fast and gratifies instantly but with a significant degree of risk. I prefer gfo all things considered for most applications and with regenerated gfo relative cost becomes much less of an issue.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The MDS shows no impurities.

FWIW, I know it is just a copy annd paste, but that statement is meaningless. An MSDS wouldn't show 1% copper impurity in it if it contained it.

[tmz]

I get that. Thanks.

I did look up Cu msds too and it shows a slight hazard. Since the Seaklear is listed 64% lanthanum salts and 36% non hazardous, I thought copper would be listed if it was there but I'm not familiar with the rigor and thresholds or lack of it in msds .

In any case it is used widely without any indications of copper poisoning that I've read and I don't know it would be any less pure than more costly hobby lanthanum mixtures since they don't tell you what's in them.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I wasn't claiming I thought it had copper, just noting the laws on MSDS and the unsuitablility of using MSDS as a way to judge purity.

"MSDSs must be developed for hazardous chemicals used in the workplace, and must list the hazardous chemicals that are found in a product in quantities of 1% or greater, or 0.1% or greater if the chemical is a carcinogen. "

http://www.ehso.com/msds_regulations.php

I'm not sure if copper is considered hazardous in this context (probably), but 0.99% wouldn't need to be listed.

[thebanker]

I've looked at this bottle about 100 times at my LFS. Still haven't taken the plunge. From what I understand, you need to dose it carefully so it can react with water, then run that water through a mechanical filter like a skimmer or a sock.

The only thing I have that is close is my canister filter, in which I keep activated carbon, but no actual mechanical filter. My skimmer, I worry, is underpowered, and all of the LaCl would end up in the fuge. (in its precipitate forms of course)

[tmz]

Ok ,thanks Randy didn't know the .99% standard. Cu msds lists it as hazardous at a level 1, slightly hazardous ,so I guess it would be less than 1% if there. I understand msds not going to list every impurity and that even very low levels of certain things like copper as an example can be harmful. I'll be sure to include an appropriate caveat whenever I read or cite an msds.

[tmz]

I'd do more than pass it through a skimmer. Some precipitant will pass through a canister My understanding is it is about .5 micron from an earlier post by Boomer. Most filter socks in use are 100 micron.

The precipitant is nasty if the tank gets cloudy. I've seen ia yellow tang go down in a friend's tank where it was dosed right into the tank at 2ml of the brightwell's stuff for a 75 gallon. The healthy fish went down to the bottom within a few hours with labored breathing ; did not recover; lost it's equilibrium and died the next day. Folks have also reported problems with clams.

[pecan2phat]

In the past, I have dosed the above Brightwell product at 70mm (all at once) into a sump (on several occassions) that is attached to a 300g system without any fish casualties. Water clouded up for about 36 hours.

[rishma]

Any opinions on BRS PHA Biopellets vs TLF NPX Bioplastics? I guess these are two different plastics?

I need to place an order for salt fro DFS and some odds and ends at BRS. I have decided to try biopellets and the TLF is less than 50% the cost of BRS pellets. So what gives? Any reason I should use the PHA over the NPX?


Thanks in advance.

[thebanker]

Originally Posted by tmz

I'd do more than pass it through a skimmer. Some precipitant will pass through a canister My understanding is it is about .5 micron from an earlier post by Boomer. Most filter socks in use are 100 micron.

The precipitant is nasty if the tank gets cloudy. I've seen ia yellow tang go down in a friend's tank where it was dosed right into the tank at 2ml of the brightwell's stuff for a 75 gallon. The healthy fish went down to the bottom within a few hours with labored breathing ; did not recover; lost it's equilibrium and died the next day. Folks have also reported problems with clams.

That being said, will activated carbon take it out? GAC is sorta like an ultra fine mechanical filter, right?

Or am I off base here?

[tmz]

I don't think GAC will. Gac is an organic adsorbent primarily. Sand filters are the most known effective application. Some use 5 or 10 micron socks with a slow drip and some filter floss. Personally, when I used it , I dripped it into an overflow which exits into a a can full of live rock out into a sock filled with floss and then over a bed of sand to the sump near the skimmer intake. I've only used small amounts rarely since I rely mostly on vodka and vinegar dosing .
I have also used it on live rock that was leaching PO4 in curing bins . In that case I just dumped it in and swished off the rock before placing it back in the aquarium.
I've heard some get by with the cloudiness around livestock but it's too risky for my taste.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by APBonds

IME if you use both liquid and GFO it will knock out the PO4 faster. When the phosphates are gone change your GFO out and you will be good for a while.
Also you might not have enuff flow in your reactor, make sure the GFO on the bottom of the reactor is moveing around to. This is a mistake I made when I first started useing a reactor, I was told to have a light flow in the reactor so I just had the top of the GFO moving. I didn't see good results until I had the bottom of the GFO moving around to.

Yes, I was one of the guys that was told that too but over the last year have upgraded all of the maxijet600's to 1200 and have them going full power

That also stops the mulm from building up in the reactors.

The problem I am having in some cases is as the bryopsis dies some of it is being filtered through the reactors and plugging the small filter media in them.
Has any one run the tlf reactors without a bottom filter media?
I would think the top would be more important as the water is being pushed upward through the reactors

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by thebanker

The only thing I have that is close is my canister filter, in which I keep activated carbon, but no actual mechanical filter. My skimmer, I worry, is underpowered, and all of the LaCl would end up in the fuge. (in its precipitate forms of course)

If it is possible for you at this time I would invest in an excellent skimmer esp if using the pellets. The skimmer functions both as removing the dead excess bacteria produced in the reactors and adds oxygen to the tank which the bacteria consume.

[coltrref]

me the doubt arose as for the quantity of the product and every mark recommends a different dose: why?



some motive especially?

[coltrref]

Originally Posted by coltrref

me the doubt arose as for the quantity of the product and every mark recommends a different dose: why?



some motive especially?

I already modified it
will it be for to the size of the ?
or the used material?

[r0cksteady]

Hi All,

Some background\details first:

I started using NP bio pellets (in a reactor constantly tumbling) in hopes of helping with Phosphates as I have a very large tank (approx 510 gallons) and have a heavy bio load with a fully established reef (shrimp, anemones, corals, clams, inverts etc).

It’s been very stable over the last few years but Phosphate was slowly creeping up and running Rowaphos in a reactor was starting to add up cost wise (I was using 1000ml a month) so instead I switched to every dosing 100ml Lanthanum Chloride diluted into 2.5gallons of RO/DI via a drip feed into my skimmer chamber that has a 10micron filter sock attached to the outlet changed daily.

I started by adding the NP Bio Pellets 1000ml the first week, another 1000ml two weeks later and a final 1000ml two weeks after that.

I am running 2 cups of GAC in a filter sock changed weekly and perform 20% water changes weekly.

Since adding the first batch of NP bio pellets I’ve had a massive explosion of Red Slime \ Cyno Bacteria and its only gotten worse and worse no matter what I do. I’ve lost countless colonies of corals so far due to this outbreak.

My phosphate hovers between 0.03 - 0.10 (on two different Hannah Checkers) and my Nitrate has been 0 (Salifert) since I’ve ever had my tank.

I’ve tried doing multiple large water changes 40% but this only seems to slightly slow the rate of slime growth.

Currently I’m trying to reduce the amount of feeding to every second day and I read that the bio pellets don’t work well with an Ozonizer\Redox which was constantly at 400ppm.

Other than these two things I’m completely out of ideas as I originally thought it was due to Phosphate but even before I started focusing on phosphate I’ve never had Cyno even when it used to be 0.25 back in the day.

Should I reduce the amount the NP bio pellets are tumbling at the moment the top 30% tend to be bouncing around heaps whilst the rest is only slightly moving around?

Should I get rid of them totally or is it all a coincidence and I should ride it out?

Is my tank old enough to suffer from ‘Old Tank Syndrome’ and need to replace some live rock?

My other ideas so far are reducing the MH lights down to 6 hours a day from 8 hours.

I looked into the new Red Sea NO3:PO4-X but I just think it’s over complicating something I’m missing. I’m sure it’s a matter of too much fish waste\food but am hoping to explore all other avenues before having to get rid of my larger fish\eel etc.

Please help!

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by r0cksteady

Hi All,

Some background\details first:

I started using NP bio pellets (in a reactor constantly tumbling) in hopes of helping with Phosphates as I have a very large tank (approx 510 gallons) and have a heavy bio load with a fully established reef (shrimp, anemones, corals, clams, inverts etc).

It’s been very stable over the last few years but Phosphate was slowly creeping up and running Rowaphos in a reactor was starting to add up cost wise (I was using 1000ml a month) so instead I switched to every dosing 100ml Lanthanum Chloride diluted into 2.5gallons of RO/DI via a drip feed into my skimmer chamber that has a 10micron filter sock attached to the outlet changed daily.

I started by adding the NP Bio Pellets 1000ml the first week, another 1000ml two weeks later and a final 1000ml two weeks after that.

I am running 2 cups of GAC in a filter sock changed weekly and perform 20% water changes weekly.

Since adding the first batch of NP bio pellets I’ve had a massive explosion of Red Slime \ Cyno Bacteria and its only gotten worse and worse no matter what I do. I’ve lost countless colonies of corals so far due to this outbreak.

My phosphate hovers between 0.03 - 0.10 (on two different Hannah Checkers) and my Nitrate has been 0 (Salifert) since I’ve ever had my tank.

I’ve tried doing multiple large water changes 40% but this only seems to slightly slow the rate of slime growth.

Currently I’m trying to reduce the amount of feeding to every second day and I read that the bio pellets don’t work well with an Ozonizer\Redox which was constantly at 400ppm.

Other than these two things I’m completely out of ideas as I originally thought it was due to Phosphate but even before I started focusing on phosphate I’ve never had Cyno even when it used to be 0.25 back in the day.

Should I reduce the amount the NP bio pellets are tumbling at the moment the top 30% tend to be bouncing around heaps whilst the rest is only slightly moving around?

Should I get rid of them totally or is it all a coincidence and I should ride it out?

Is my tank old enough to suffer from ‘Old Tank Syndrome’ and need to replace some live rock?

My other ideas so far are reducing the MH lights down to 6 hours a day from 8 hours.

I looked into the new Red Sea NO3:PO4-X but I just think it’s over complicating something I’m missing. I’m sure it’s a matter of too much fish waste\food but am hoping to explore all other avenues before having to get rid of my larger fish\eel etc.

Please help!

Hi rocksteady , i too had in the first month's an outbreak of cyano , that was consumining my hair algea for the last bits of N or P .
Even when the hairalgea was gonne it took my a while to get rid of it (especialy on the sand near rocks).
I did 3 things that work very well :

1) vacuum the cyano as much as possible in the display
2) rinse all deepfreeze food before feedings (+feeding in small dosages so that every thing got eaten)
3) i added vinegar in combo with the pellets ,uping it from 4 ml every 25 G a day to 10 ml every 25 g a day until it's gone , then slowly reduce the vinegar and let pellets do there work.

greetingzz tntneon

[rinconmike]

I am having so so success with the BRS pellets in a BR-140. I have a 150 FO tank with a wet/dry sump with bioballs. The tank was set up in March 2010. I run GAC in a BRS single reactor and GFO in a Jumbo Reactor. I really never had any hair algae issues, instead I have this red algae that is hard to clean off the overflow covers when I take them out. I also have it on dead coral skeletons but on there, there is a bit of fuzz.

I did start adding some BRS dry pukani Rock after I cured it for several months. I now have around 20 pounds of it in there. I added some on 5/1/11, then 5/25, and 6/4.

I stated running bio-pellets on 5/6 with 1 cup, I had a bloom within a week. Around 2 weeks later it went down. I added another cup on 5/29 and a few days later I got another bloom, but not as bad. It never cleared up all the way but I did add a 3rd and probably final cup of pellets on 6/12 (3 cups is the recommended amount).

My water is still cloudy. I am not sure if the cloudy water is solely due to the pellets or if I am over feeding. I feed every other day and have:

6" porc puffer
24" snow flake eel
6" red breasted wrasse
5" H. Butterly
2" blue damsel

I feed a prosalt frozen carnivore mix and sometimes do frozen prawns or silversides instead. I probably do a 1.5"x1.5" to 2"x2" chunk. I do rinse it 2 or 3 times with RO water after defrosted.

My nitrates did drop from over 50ppm to around 20 to 25ppm (maybe even less) using a salifert kit. When I started pellets, I stopped the GFO. However, my phosphates started to climb a bit and I noticed more of the red algae growing with a little of green on the rock I added on 5/25 so this past weekend I added the GFO back in and phosphates are back close to 0.

Phos readings using a hanna checker have been:

5/22/2011 - 0.15
5/29/2011 - 0.36
6/11/2011 - 0.48
6/13/2011 - 0.03 (after adding GFO back in)

I have been changing water at least 10% weekly. The first couple of weeks with pellets I did it twice a week.

One more note, the flow I have in my tank is return two pipes in each rear corner (it is a perfecto with two overflows). On the back wall, there is almost a line of where some brown algae starts on the wall. I starts around 1/3 down from the top. Above the line, the glass is clean, below the film starts.

Any comments are appreciated.

thanks,

Mike

[r0cksteady]

Thanks tntneon for the reply.

Rinconmike your referring to the same problem as myself with Cyno\Red Slime Algae so the same advice would apply.

[rinconmike]

is there a link on using the vinegar? What type of vinegar?

[r0cksteady]

I think ive figure out the problem after reading all over the joint, also reading up on Bio Pellets VS the new Red Sea Coral Care program.

Found this handy little post here: http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...=420101&page=6

Basically ive gotten my phosphates and nitrates down so low that its a battle of Cyno Vs Zooxanthellae to the point that my hard and soft corals are starting to fade. Im thinking because ive been manually pulling down Phosphates with the Lanthanum Chloride the NP Bio Pellets are kicking in and also reducing Nitrate and Phosphate which is basically meaning im not leaving the corals with much to work with. What do you guys think of that conclusion?

If this is the case then by me leaving the Redox off, Stopping dosing of Lanthanum Chloride, Siphoning the Red Slime Algae\Cyno, Doing regular water changes, running the skimmer wet things should become more stable BUT now ive got the issue of whether to dose trace elements etc like the Red Sea Nutrition \ Coloration Program? Mind you its not designed for larger tanks like mine and it means that 500ml would only last me 10 days. Is it worth a punt to try and get things back on track and then let nature take its course?

[tntneon]

nice link rocksteady ,
It confirms what i also was thinking and experiencing , if N / P are zero you got to feed more ( zoo -: phytoplancton and others) to keep the corals healthy.

greetingzz tntneon

[BuckeyeTodd]

Has anyone had starts and stops in production with pellets? I am running BRS pellets in Octopus 110 reactor. I had played around with another reactor for a month with bad results, and have been using in Octopus with proper tumble for a month. Last week for 2-3 days I got amazing production and thought the pellets had kicked in. I didn't change anything, and my production went back to normal. I am using an ATB Elegance skimmer, and so far can't even fill the cup once a week with a fairly heavy load.

I just order some microbacter 7 to try and seed the pellets, is there anything else I can do or is stopping and starting normal?