N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I would suggest you start your own thread in this section(reef chemistry)
These posts are probably being overlooked by the chemistry experts as it is a very long specific thread

Thanks Capn... Just might do that although I would have thought my quere was related to any form of carbon dosing including np pellets. I was at one of the local fish stores yesterday and noticed similar behaviour. He was using a modest dose of np pellets, and the calc reactor was the more updated upward flow, so the melt was not streaking downward in the primary although there was a pile of calc residue at the bottom of the second pass-thru chamber...

I'll give it some more time, and if nobody bites, then perhaps I'll relocate the question as you've so keenly suggested.

Cheers,

Sheldon

[tntneon]

Hi Scej 12 ,

-I'm not an calcium/alk reactor specialist (more a noob ) , because i dose my Ca and alk. with 2-channel dosing pump.

-But could it be that your media is covered and impregmented with bacteria , causing it to melt away by the extra provided CO2 from bacteria on a microscopic level , maybe not measured (Ph-wise) in the reactor water because the reaction is also inside the aragonite media??

---> if this would be the case , maybe installing a small UV-unit on the inlet hose of the reactor could do the trick;
No bacteria would enter the reactor chamber , so no bacteria there ?

Are you sure that the white sludge is not dead /alive bacteria ?
If it's sand-like it probably will not be the case and then it could be some sort of perticipation.

greetingzz tntneon

[reeftivo]

Interesting thought! Seems to make sense!

Tagging along.

[tmz]

---> if this would be the case , maybe installing a small UV-unit on the inlet hose of the reactor could do the trick;
No bacteria would enter the reactor chamber , so no bacteria there ?


I have lots of bacteria clogging my gfo reactors from time to time ; hadn't thought of pre uv fitration ; might try it. Thanks.

[thebanker]

Tom if you try that, let us know how it works out. My GFO reactor always gets clogged with detritus. I think a mechanical inline pre-filter would be better right?

[Robert Patterso]

I haven't jumped on board as of yet with the pellets so in the mean time been dosing vineager with kalk. Got the dry look on my acros. Not a pretty sight to say the least. Should be getting pettets in a week or so.........

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by tntneon

Hi Scej 12 ,

-I'm not an calcium/alk reactor specialist (more a noob ) , because i dose my Ca and alk. with 2-channel dosing pump.

-But could it be that your media is covered and impregmented with bacteria , causing it to melt away by the extra provided CO2 from bacteria on a microscopic level , maybe not measured (Ph-wise) in the reactor water because the reaction is also inside the aragonite media??

---> if this would be the case , maybe installing a small UV-unit on the inlet hose of the reactor could do the trick;
No bacteria would enter the reactor chamber , so no bacteria there ?

Are you sure that the white sludge is not dead /alive bacteria ?
If it's sand-like it probably will not be the case and then it could be some sort of perticipation.

greetingzz tntneon

FWIW - I also think the solution will be to add a uv prefilter; as I really do think the behaviour is due to bacteria in the water column finding an intentional or unintentional home in the calc reactor. Your theory about the bacteria degrading the aragonite from within is an interesting one... I'm just not enough of a chemistry guy to be able to assess what exactly is happening... but as far as I can observe:

• The reactor is maintaining some undissolved gas at the top (mostly due to the fact that it is not an upward flow reactor, however this is a definite change in function nonetheless);
• Although my CO2 feed is definitely reduced, while media-melting is accelerated, the actual amount of CO2 dictates my achieved Ca and dKH levels no matter how much the media melts otherwise...

The above being the case; perhaps you are correct in that the residue could be some form of precipitate??? Perhaps PO4??? but that's a heck of a lot. And if so, why does the water within the reactor have such a reduced capacity to dissolve CO2 gas... or perhaps the gas dissolving capacity could be due to the water being occupied by some other forms of gas.. say N2??? What if, for argument sake, the bacteria is spending so much time within the CaCO3 reactor that it is dying off within; releasing it's P to precipitate with Calcium Phosphate or something of the like; and releasing it's N to form N2 gas at the top of the reactor... But then again, the media is definitely being reduced (lost about 3-4 inches in height over the past couple of months... this too is an acceleration of the norm)

I wish there was an easy way to test this stuff...

Thanks for throwing some thoughts into the mix.

Regards,

Sheldon

[tmz]

Tom if you try that, let us know how it works out. My GFO reactor always gets clogged with detritus. I think a mechanical inline pre-filter would be better right?

Don't know,It might just clog as well as the reactor will. A uv wouldn't help detritus but could reduce bacteria which is what grows in mine.

[tmz]

My question(s)

1. How exactly does a Calcium reactor produce CO3: does fed-in CO2 associate w
2. Does my above deduction make sense re: bacteria O2 consumption; CO2 production; and effect on CO3?
3. ith O2 to produce CO3 thereby raising system carbonate hardness?
4. If the answer to the first question above is affirmative; then what process allows bacterial activity to acidify the environment within the calcium reactor, while not registering any noticeable pH drop in the effluent from the second chamber... could this chamber (of aragonite) be actually buffering pH back up to overall system levels even though its media is also melting away albeit not as aggressively as the first chamber's media?
5. What other possibilities could explain the above described phenomenon that have not been considered or described...???

I read your post 3885 and subsequent posts. I don't know precisely what's going on but organic carbon might be getting into the low flow pressurized reactor environment which could fuel heterotrophic bacterial activity there leading to increased dissolution of the media due to localized low ph.

The CO3 comes from the disassociation of calcium carbonate to calcium and carbonate at lower ph,ie more H+ whether from CO2 forming carbonic acid or another source like hydrogen sulfide, for example..

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Scej12

• ....
• Although my CO2 feed is definitely reduced, while media-melting is accelerated, the actual amount of CO2 dictates my achieved Ca and dKH levels no matter how much the media melts otherwise...

....

-Then i think this would be the evidence that it is some sort of precipitation , what mechanism i don't know....

Very intressting though , you could do some sort of a voting poll on how much " Ca-reactor combined with carbon dosing users" have the same issues you have.
I guess you will not be alone....

This definitly is a subject for guru's like Boomer and Randy if you ask me.

greetingzz tntneon

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by tmz

My question(s)
I read your post 3885 and subsequent posts. I don't know precisely what's going on but organic carbon might be getting into the low flow pressurized reactor environment which could fuel heterotrophic bacterial activity there leading to increased dissolution of the media due to localized low ph.

The CO3 comes from the disassociation of calcium carbonate to calcium and carbonate at lower ph,ie more H+ whether from CO2 forming carbonic acid or another source like hydrogen sulfide, for example..

Thanks for chiming in Tom. I would certainly bet that organic carbon is in deed getting into the reactor... What do you think the bacteria might be feeding on... the actual media...?? I was thinking this morning after responding to tntneon's post, that if the bacteria was in fact dying in the reactor wouldn't it be visible by brownish/blackish residue.. the reactor melt is completely white/calc. looking. I still can't seem to figure out why the pH is not below 7.9 - 8.1 within the reactor and all of that media is dissolving like crazy.. perhaps it is indeed heterotrophic activity doing the dissolving

In any event - I believe I could easily figure out how to put a bandaid solution together to eliminate the symptoms but am nonetheless curious as to what actual mechanics are taking place to cause this carbon/bacterial based consequential effect. When I find the time, I might just opt to switch around the plumbing to a upward-flow arrangement; and add a settling area at the bottom of the pass-thru chamber. This way, both chambers will stay relatively clean (no streaking); and I will be able to resume a normal Ca and CO3 maintaining dose of CO2.

Originally Posted by tntneon

-Then i think this would be the evidence that it is some sort of precipitation , what mechanism i don't know....

Very intressting though , you could do some sort of a voting poll on how much " Ca-reactor combined with carbon dosing users" have the same issues you have.
I guess you will not be alone....

This definitly is a subject for guru's like Boomer and Randy if you ask me.

greetingzz tntneon

Thanks for the suggestions. Though I believe the effect is not as noticeable with the reverse-flow calc reactors with two chambers, unless you look specifically at the bottom of the second chamber.

I think I might have to lure Randy and Boomer to this question with a couple of pms...

Regards,

Sheldon

[Plantbrain]

Seems you could also use the by products of bacterial respiration and waste, eg fermentation(Vodka etc) and the other, particularly where O2 is low......acetic acid, which dissolved the CaCO3 quite well, it'll also lower dKH.

This could be tested also:

Use a small dosing pump to dose acetic acid, say 5% distilled and pH controlled via pH controller.

This could be used in place of CO2 and supply an organic reduced carbon source as well.

Cheaper and simpler than CO2 I would think.

[tntneon]

hi scej12 ,

-Have you tryed to collect some of the "melt away"-substance , to exame it if it's sandy or not ?

a question that came to mind :

Isn't there a lower limit of PH in wich nitricificating bacteria thrive ?
I thought i somehere have read that the " nitrificing bacteria" die under a certain PH , don't know if it's true though....


greetingzz tntneon

[tmz]

Isn't there a lower limit of PH in wich nitricificating bacteria thrive ?

Not sure what it is;mot likely in the reactor though as these bacteria thrive in freshwater at much lower ph. However, denitrifying bacteria wane when they use up all the O2 and nitrate in the water at which point sufate reducing bacteria take over. They use the O from SO4(sulfate). This could easily occur in a reactor environment with low flow.

[tmz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmz
My question(s)
I read your post 3885 and subsequent posts. I don't know precisely what's going on but organic carbon might be getting into the low flow pressurized reactor environment which could fuel heterotrophic bacterial activity there leading to increased dissolution of the media due to localized low ph.

The CO3 comes from the disassociation of calcium carbonate to calcium and carbonate at lower ph,ie more H+ whether from CO2 forming carbonic acid or another source like hydrogen sulfide, for example..

Thanks for chiming in Tom. I would certainly bet that organic carbon is in deed getting into the reactor... What do you think the bacteria might be feeding on... the actual media...?? I was thinking this morning after responding to tntneon's post, that if the bacteria was in fact dying in the reactor wouldn't it be visible by brownish/blackish residue..

I'd expect to see that too; but it does occur in sand beds on and off as evident in dissolution and some forms of clumping without apparent residue.

[syedjilani]

Subscribed....

[DarkXerox]

I'll hypothesize that there is an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source. The difference being that films on teeth are swept away more by our tounges, saliva, and brushing. Whereas in calcium reactors there is low flow and no film removal.

But where my idea is weak is why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

[Safedad]

How often do I need to add more Microbacter 7 or Zeovit since I have started using NP Biopellets?

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by DarkXerox

...an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source.....
....why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it...

-That is a great analogy , don't know if it's the same mechanism though ,but it makes sense to me.

-There must be others doing carbon dosing and having downstream Ca-reactors having that issue ??

greetingzz tntneon

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by Plantbrain

Seems you could also use the by products of bacterial respiration and waste, eg fermentation(Vodka etc) and the other, particularly where O2 is low......acetic acid, which dissolved the CaCO3 quite well, it'll also lower dKH.

This could be tested also:

Use a small dosing pump to dose acetic acid, say 5% distilled and pH controlled via pH controller.

This could be used in place of CO2 and supply an organic reduced carbon source as well.

Cheaper and simpler than CO2 I would think.

Interesting experiment for sure... Would certainly explain the low dKH I'm experiencing but not the low Ca as well? Would be nice to dig a little deeper to see if both behaviours can be explained. I know at least one person who tried to use the effluent of a conventional anoxic denitrator to feed a calcium reactor, however, I think in the end it didn't acheive what he was hoping for... can't recall why, but I think it was because he wasn't able to get a low enough pH perhaps.

Originally Posted by tntneon

hi scej12 ,

-Have you tryed to collect some of the "melt away"-substance , to exame it if it's sandy or not ?


greetingzz tntneon

IIRC, the consistency is one of a very fine pasty/muddy texture; and as you can see is the same colour as the media. I would say that it's broken down past the level of grainy sand... I'd say powder!

Originally Posted by DarkXerox

I'll hypothesize that there is an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source. The difference being that films on teeth are swept away more by our tounges, saliva, and brushing. Whereas in calcium reactors there is low flow and no film removal.

But where my idea is weak is why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

Now that's a great analogy!!! It actually works IMO hand in hand with Tom's suggestion that there could be some sort of heterotrophic activity going on. I happen to be talking to someone who has a micro-bio background and in response to my questioning him on this topic he started suggesting that their could be some types of bacteria that in nature feed on coral/CaCO3 substances, then I showed him your post on my blackberry, and he seemed to agree that something of the like is entirely possible. I would go so far as to suggest that your post certainly closes a few gaps in my understanding of this whole bacteria food-chain issue.

And BTW - your idea is not weak at all since the system for which the query applies is actually a vodka-dosed system and not a BP system. I also previously mentioned that I saw a similar media melt accumulation at the bottom of someone else's dual chamber calc reactor on a system that was employing biopellets. His was an upward flow reactor which is only significant because the media appeard to be clean (no internal reactor downward streaking), even though there was a pile of the same powdery residue at the bottom of his second chamber which served as a pass-thru (not recirculating) chamber.... But once again - I think you made a key analogy here!!

[tmz]

We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

The ph in the water is higher in the tank than in the reactor where low flow and extra cocentrations of CO2 are in play,which is why the argonite media dissolves in the first place. Relatedly sometimes sand clumping occurs in substrate attributable to on/off localized low ph from anaerobic bacterial activity. The coraline would dissolve as readily as the rock at ph much under 7.7.

[Scej12]

Oh and BTW - the dental reference I understand only because I've had way too many lectures from my dentist stating that "... even though you have apparently perfect teeth (i.e. no cavities) if you don't pick up on your flossing regime you're going to have perfectly healthy teeth falling out of your mouth due to bone loss..." In other words: a good dentist will tell you that flossing helps to remove the tarter/bacteria from below the gum line; If you allow this bacteria to form and grow there, it will gradually erode your jawbone down further and further until you don't have enough bone coverage holding the roots of your teeth in place, and therefore your teeth will eventually pop out!!!

DarkXerox... you just provided one very relate-able example of heterotrophic bacterial activity

Bacteria eating away at your calcium-based bones is not too far a stretch from bacteria eating away at CaCO3 Media... Of course as an inventor, I'm thinking how can we make use of this knowledge ... but am really just happy to understand a little more of what is going on.

SJ

[DarkXerox]

Yeah well being the son of a dentist and having a masters in bio makes my brain link things in strange ways haha.

The enamel of teeth is made up of mostly hydroxylapatite which is similar to CaCO3, but has a lot of phosphate present in it and is a little more resistant to dissolution (starts having problems at ~pH 5.5). So it is starting to make sense now that you can have this dramatic effect at "higher" (~7.7) pH levels.

[Scej12]

Linking huh You know that in life there are many, many specialties to pursue; but my favourite move [not just in basketball] still remains the cross-over... this is indeed where the best innovations are found

In any event, why do you think the Ca and dKH are not at levels consistent with the apparent dissolution? Could it be assumed that the bacteria is consuming this as well...? Any bio-chem buffs wanting to chime in...

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by Safedad

How often do I need to add more Microbacter 7 or Zeovit since I have started using NP Biopellets?

I dose ZeoBak a couple times a week per the recommendation on the bottle. I would probably go with the recommended maintenance dosage for any bacteria source I decide to supplement a carbon dosing regime with.

Regards,

Sheldon