almost 35 year old reef pictures

[Paul B]

That could be because they overstock and overfeed and their systems become relatively sterile compared to the ocean and Manhatten mud

My tank is overstocked and overfed and I rarely have to change water, I wonder why.


Capn, do you know of any old DSBs?


Why not?

I go on 5 of these forums and that is about 20,000 people.
I doubt three of them with DSBs are over ten years old. Most of my fish live twice as long as that. Do you have to tear the tank apart every 5 or 10 years to put in a new DSB?

Do you think that your substrate lasted as long as it has because of the RUGF?

No, the substrait would last forever no matter what type of system it is but I feel the RUGF is what kept the tank going with no crashes for so long. It is a very forgiving system and it could be maintained, moved around or cleaned as needed.
A DSB eventually will cease to operate no matter what you do unless you replace it. The sand grains will clog with dead bacteria and the thing will gradually stop working.
Gravel would also clog eventually if you just let it sit on the bottom of a tank without disturbing it.

I don't want to get into another DSB debate so when you show me a 20 year old DSB that has not been replaced, then I may have to re think my theory

[conorwynne]

I have three DSB's in my sump, and have been running skimmerless for some months now. Each DSB is quite small -- 2x 500g tubs (Old Calk tubs) and one 1kg epsom salts tub. All are filled with argonite, mineral mud, and topped off with crushed coral, and the water flows over the top layer of each. I have NO idea if it does anything, and how could I possibly tell anyway? How can anyone tell? Is DSB a myth or is there any scientific evidence to back it up?

I believe you have proven the RUGF system "just works"(tm).

p.s.: the only reason I am skimmerless is because my tunze doc needs a clean, but is covered in lots of sponges and I would rather not kill them. I powered it off two months ago, with no ill effects algae wise (Cotton candy algae aside, I had nothing to eat it, now I do)

I also don't like the fact that skimmers skim out plankton, although I cannot see any, I'm sure I could with a microscope....hmm must get one... I really like the whole ecosystem idea, it's very hippy - like my vegetable garden.

What are your thoughts on this subject Paul?

Conor

[Paul B]

Is DSB a myth or is there any scientific evidence to back it up?

We all know that DSBs reduce nitrates. That is a scientific fact. My problem with them is that can not do that for long.
Sand particles will clog especially in an aquarium envirnment where we add food every day and the fish poop, algae and pods die. All of the solids we add to the tank stay there except the inert stuff like pod shells, detritus etc. How much solids do we add to a tank in a year? I am sure it is a few pounds. That stuff goes between the sand grains and stays there because you can't disturb a DSB. Even a pile of bricks will clog evetually.
Unless there is magic in your tank, the thing can not work forever.
The fact that worms and other creatures burry into the bed forever is also bogus. I have been digging for creatures on sandy beaches all of my life (and I'm old ), after an inch or two down, nothing lives there. There is no reason for creatures to burry deep if all the food and oxygen are at the surface.
They can't breathe there. No way, not gonna happen.
OK lets say there are worms digging there. There is still no appreciable circulation of water to be treated. Some water will flow into the sand but where is the mechanism that will push the water out of the sand? Gravity will get it there, and it will stay there. OK lets say the worms or David Copperfield push the water out of the sand at a high rate (yeah right )
Those worms and other sand critters will stop re producing in time. Many will die in months, some will last a few years, but thats it.
OK then lets say that the worms live forever and the water somehow manages to get down into the sand. In any granulated bed like a DSB or even a gravel system the smaller grains will eventually make their way deep down to the bottom of the bed leaving the larger grains on top. You can even see this in a pile of gravel. Those small particles and even tinier particles form mud at the lowest parts of the bed. Even in my UF filter there is sand that made it's way down under the filter plates. It is about 1/4" deep. This is made up of broken pieces of gravel, tiny snail shells, dead bacteria and detritus. It will gradually keep building up forever. In my system, it will do no harm for 30 years or so because the UG plate is about 3/4" above the glass but in a DSB those tiny particles which are basically mud will effectively totally clog the sand rendering it useless for our purposes.
So if Jacque Cousteau can tell me how a DSB could work for many years I would like to know the magic. So far, no one can tell me how it overcomes the obstacles I have mentioned. And there are no old DSBs to study (I wonder why)

A RUGF is also not perfect, it too has issues. But I know exactly how it works. I can see the water circulating through it. 150 gallons per hour in my tank. I can stir it up and see all the life in it all the way to the bottom and under it. I can see thousands of tube worms all through it which are really tiny efficient filters.
I can see through the glass bottom of the tank and follow the worm trails as they live in the flowing oxygenated layers under the bed.
I can lift a handful of my gravel and see multitudes of pods all over my hand, and thats forty years after that gravel has been anywhere near the sea. (my gravel has never been in the sea and my rocks were bleached by me after I collected it)
I can read almost no nitrates in a 100 gallon tank with about 30 overfed spawning fish. I rarely need to change water and never have to change it for nitrate control. The water I add has more nitrates than what is already in my tank so I know something in there is reducing nitrates. The water and animals stay healthy, I don't even have to quarantine (probably has nothing to do with the RUGF though)
I know almost all people think my system can't work and thats fine. I like having the oldest tank and have no fear that a DSB will last longer
If one does, I will be dead anyway and I will haunt you

[Paul B]

I also don't like the fact that skimmers skim out plankton, although I cannot see any, I'm sure I could with a microscope....hmm must get one... I really like the whole ecosystem idea, it's very hippy - like my vegetable garden

Connor, forget about the plankton. There is no real plankton in a tank. The pods are almost all on the rocks or on your sand. Much of what goes into a skimmer comes out the other side and goes back to your tank unscathed. The skimmer benefits far outweigh and negatives. My skimmer effluent is sometimes almost purple and it stinks, I am real happy I got that out of my system.
A skimmer is not a filter and does not "filter" anything. It is a water treatment device which removes a certain type of pollutant that happens to make foam.
You can see this foam on a beach at the surf line. If there is any foam the water is slightly polluted. If the waves crash and there is no foam, "generally," the water is pure.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Paul B
Connor, forget about the plankton. There is no real plankton in a tank. The pods are almost all on the rocks or on your sand. Much of what goes into a skimmer comes out the other side and goes back to your tank unscathed. The skimmer benefits far outweigh and negatives. My skimmer effluent is sometimes almost purple and it stinks, I am real happy I got that out of my system.
A skimmer is not a filter and does not "filter" anything. It is a water treatment device which removes a certain type of pollutant that happens to make foam.
You can see this foam on a beach at the surf line. If there is any foam the water is slightly polluted. If the waves crash and there is no foam, "generally," the water is pure.

I still maintain that alot of the longetivity of your tank depends on the Manahattan mud and real sea water that you introduce to your tank from time to time. Also that algae trough that you have is a fantastic innovation and probably reduces a good share of nitrates and phosphates in your tank.

I am really begining to believe that deep sand beds or rubble sand beds or any sand beds are the least effecient means that we have at our hands now for reducing nitrates. And with the fact that they don't function for ever they are last on my list now for recommending to anyone for nitrate reduction.

Now that I have my feet wet again in fresh water I see the beauty of being able to reduce the ammonia and nitrates in the system by water changes, vaccuming the substrate really good on a weekly basis and relying on a super cannister filter to develop the biotic medium.
My next reef tank will have a one inch coarse pebble base and to heck with having to worry about whether or not the deep sand bed works for a few years or not.

BTW
Connor---Paul has an excellent skimmer on his system--diy--but its a beauty

[Paul B]

I see the beauty of being able to reduce the ammonia and nitrates in the system by water changes, vaccuming the substrate really good on a weekly basis and relying on a super cannister filter to develop the biotic medium.

Capn, even though I am retired I would never have time for all of that. I am glad my nitrates stay low no matter what I do or don't do. I feel bad for all of you guys that have to do all of that stuff to lower nitrates.
I only wish my fish could help me clean this new boat to get it ready for the fourth.

Have a great day. And an even better day tomorrow.
Paul

[Rae C.]

How much mud do you add? If all your substrate is dolomite, where does it go? How do you maintain the UF, when you do maintain it?

How do you tell if the DSB is no longer functioning? I think I've asked this before, but I can't remember what the answer was.

[Paul B]

How much mud do you add? If all your substrate is dolomite, where does it go? How do you maintain the UF, when you do maintain it?

I add very little actual mud, less than a teaspoon a year. I usually like to put some mud in a container in the tank for a few days to let the bacteria colonize my tank, then I remove the mud and discard it.

To maintain the Reverse UG filter, a few times a year I use a diatom filter (which is a good canister filter) I stir up where I can and suck out any detritus. I can stir it up all the way down to the filter plates. I use the strong current from the diatom filter for this. After 25 years I removed all of the rock to stir up all of the gravel and sucked out the detritus with a diatom filter. In another 25 years, I will do it again, only if it needs it

How do you tell if the DSB is no longer functioning? I think I've asked this before, but I can't remember what the answer was.

If your nitrates are rising, your DSB is not functioning or it is barely functioning. You should never have to change water to lower nitrates. Your DSB or whatever else you have should do that for you. Changing water should only be needed to replenish trace elements and remove substances not removed by bacteria and skimming but never to reduce nitrates. Thats what a DSB is supposed to do. If it doesn't do it, why are you using one?

[ddinox64]

So. If I go RUGF with Dolomite, and I'm currently 45 years old. Then in 25 years I'll be 70 and not give a ship to what happens with my set up. I've just solved all maintenance issues with my set up for as long as I care.

Paul, you're a stud. If it were only that simple huh?

Now do you think using the dolomite is part of the key to your RUGF? Is it 100 percent dolomite or is there a percentage of sand? Can all sand be used in your opinion? How deep is your substrate?

Because as you see in my little about me section. Procrastination is getting tired of being in the garage. He and I would rather learn from grandpa reef(you) than some one else on the next set up.

I went DSB on this(30g) because of much reading and I like the look of it.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Paul B
Capn, even though I am retired I would never have time for all of that. I am glad my nitrates stay low no matter what I do or don't do. I feel bad for all of you guys that have to do all of that stuff to lower nitrates.
I only wish my fish could help me clean this new boat to get it ready for the fourth.

Have a great day. And an even better day tomorrow.
Paul

Paul I have no nitrates in my system and I do nothing now other then harvest a good hunk of cheato once a week.

I think your system could run quite well without a rugf too

[Aquarist007]

Have a look at this one--I now have a nice burn whole in my cabinet too.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1665341

[Paul B]

Now do you think using the dolomite is part of the key to your RUGF? Is it 100 percent dolomite or is there a percentage of sand? Can all sand be used in your opinion? How deep is your substrate?

I think the dolomite works great, I would imagine anything about the size of rice will work.
All sand can not work with a UG filter it needs gravel.
There is a little sand in my system, I don't think I need it but over the years some sand became mixed in. It comes from the sea when I add amphods, rocks and other things, I also have some sand mixed in. I also think a few years ago I added some "live sand" from a store. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't usually add anything from a store. I am quite sure the thing would work just as well, maybe better without the sand.
My dolomite is about one and a half inches deep but it varies from zero to 3". The fish dig nests all over the place but a good UG filter is designed with small holes the largest of which are furthest from the intake pipe.

Paul I have no nitrates in my system and I do nothing now other then harvest a good hunk of cheato once a week.

Capn while you have a beautiful, healthy system, it is very young. A DSB that young works great. It will probably also keep working great for a few more years then start to slow down and your nitrates will rise. Luckily for us, we are old and don't have to worry what will happen in too many years.
But I will bet that in about 7 or 8 more years you will be changing that bed . Just a theory of mine.

I think your system could run quite well without a rugf too

I don't think so Capn. The RUGF is the heart of the system. There is no way to keep gravel (or sand) healthy besides running oxygenated water through it. It will not reduce nitrated as fast at first but, nitrogen reduction is not my only concern. All of those creatures in my gravel are interspersed all the way through the gravel to the glass. There are almost as many tube worms as there is gravel. This is a healthy condition as these things consume wastes and tiny particles. The bacteria we all have do nothing for particulate matter. The fact that these tube worms are there in such nimbers means there are substances in the water that they are removing. A DSB would only have bacteria.
Boreing old bacteria that are just laying there waiting for some nitrate laden water to slowly permiate down to them by the wriggling action of some oxygen deprived worm.

In my 6' tank there is 150 gallons of water an hour travelling past those tube worms. It isn't much for that size tank, it would be like having a tiny powerhead connected to my UG filter.
It is just enough to keep the bed healthy while not being enough to supply too much oxygen to the anerobic bacteria hiding in the detritus between the gravel grains. I am sure the tube worms and other things utilize a good portion of that oxygen.
I like the idea that when I lift a handful of the gravel I see nice clean gravel full of life and not stagnant ,compacted, darker, dead stuff which is on the verge of manufacturing deadly hydrogen sulfide.
I guess thats it, a DSB is always on the verge of crashing. You can't disturb it, you can't maintain it and the smaller particles will gradually migrate to the lower regions forming an impermiable mud which will do nothing except maybe produce hydrogen sulfide. Maybe thats why so many of them crash and there are no old ones.

You can see the dolomite here

[ddinox64]

Paul? Now can you direct me towards a FUGF system? I've done a search over search but seem to come up short.

Also. If the water is flowing upwards. How is anything going to settle compactly? I can understand in areas here and there but not across the entire floor.

I sure like the idea of distrubing the bed without too much gunk becoming suspended. Not that I go around disturbing it. Just sometimes it gets messed with because of one reason or another.

Usually due to a couple of monster snails I have. They're like tanks.

[conorwynne]

Hi DD, I did a google for you, it's called a RUGF not FUGF, which is why you probably couldn't ind it.

http://www.alltropicalfish.com/content/view/109/101/

Loads more:
http://www.google.ie/search?q=revers...ient=firefox-a

Conor.

[Aquarist007]

"I don't think so Capn. The RUGF is the heart of the system. There is no way to keep gravel (or sand) healthy besides running oxygenated water through it. It will not reduce nitrated as fast at first but, nitrogen reduction is not my only concern. All of those creatures in my gravel are interspersed all the way through the gravel to the glass. There are almost as many tube worms as there is gravel. This is a healthy condition as these things consume wastes and tiny particles. The bacteria we all have do nothing for particulate matter. The fact that these tube worms are there in such nimbers means there are substances in the water that they are removing. A DSB would only have bacteria.
Boreing old bacteria that are just laying there waiting for some nitrate laden water to slowly permiate down to them by the wriggling action of some oxygen deprived worm."

My system is doing great because I have listened to some great mentors on here like you Paul.

I don't believe my system or even yours is receiving much nitrate reduction from the sand beds. In both our display tanks the sand beds are not that deep--min is 2 inches and yours doesn't appear to be even that.
I believe the primary nitrate reduction in both are systems are the algae--cheato in mine and the algae trough in your. Plus the live rock that we have.

As to the rugf encouraging the growth of pods and other small inverts in the dolomite bed--I totally am into that.
For those of us not fortunate enough with having met you earlier and set up a rugf---would you suggest lightly basting our substrates and once a month adding a cup of substrate from the refugium would encourage the growth of inverts you have?

As always it is a honour to be able to discuss things with you--not many guys with your experince and success are as approachable and sincere as you

[ddinox64]

Yeah. I know. My fingers don't always go where I point them or where I'm looking.

More stuff comes up about Cichlid tanks than marine. I sure like my DSB though. I can see things down to about two inches deep. So maybe I'll start researching animals that borough and just how deep they go to determine my sand bed on my next set up.

Was in Ol' Ireland, the Emerald Isle a couple of months ago. In Bodyke.

[ddinox64]

Make that burrowing. I realized when doing a search on burrowing, I thought back to this and that I missplelled it.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by ddinox64
Yeah. I know. My fingers don't always go where I point them or where I'm looking.

More stuff comes up about Cichlid tanks than marine. I sure like my DSB though. I can see things down to about two inches deep. So maybe I'll start researching animals that borough and just how deep they go to determine my sand bed on my next set up.

Was in Ol' Ireland, the Emerald Isle a couple of months ago. In Bodyke.

Have you read this blog on deep sand beds. There are some links at the bottom to go threads and articles too.

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=355

[Aquarist007]

this is also an outstanding thread with a really great diagram to it

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1652103

[Rae C.]

OK, I'm thinking about my compost pile. When you build a huge compost pile, it's recommended to put a PVC pipe vertically through the middle of the pile. The PVC has holes drilled in it all along the length, which provides oxygen to the bottom of the pile. I'm wondering if a similar procedure can revive a dead DSB?

[ddinox64]

Thanks Capn'. Those look familiar but I'll read again. Or for the first time.

That vent pipe might be more for releasing methane than adding Oxygen. A compost pile can build enough heat that it will combust.

I've seen piles of manure self ignite into a firery heap of you know what.

Funny Rae. Before reading this, I was reading about the problem with DSBs is inadequate flow through them. I was thinking about a low or very low GPH pump and running some tubing with many very small holes in it through or under the sand bed to add flow to where there would be very little or no flow in a DSB.

Capn', Paul, anyone with an opinion. Rae. I know you're already thinking it.

[Rae C.]

certainly could be done in the initial setup, like a bubble wall or something? But once the sand has been there a while, I would think that would release the bad gas. Like onion rings to my husband. Whereas, a vertical tube would end above water and keep those gases out of the water stream. So the house would end up smelling like my husband after onion rings!

[eyesinthedrk]

quote:
I don't believe my system or even yours is receiving much nitrate reduction from the sand beds. In both our display tanks the sand beds are not that deep--min is 2 inches and yours doesn't appear to be even that.
I believe the primary nitrate reduction in both are systems are the algae--cheato in mine and the algae trough in your. Plus the live rock that we have.:




i've though about this, and in addition to the algae trough, i think the hollow pvc skeletons in a lot of pauls live rock (providing it has open ends) and the bottles, creat a good low flow/low oxygen zone for nitrate eating bacteria. the same concept as a DSB but one that cant get clogged with detrious over time,

I've toyed with the idea of using an old UV steralizer i have to do this same thing. Hiding it behind the live rock with one open end sticking out about a foot away from the nearest power head. Water would be pushed gently through this 1/2" pvc network. Im not looking forward to breaking down my live rock again to do this so when i add some in a few weeks i'll probably give it a try then

opinions?

[Paul B]

Also. If the water is flowing upwards. How is anything going to settle compactly? I can understand in areas here and there but not across the entire floor.

I don't thibnk I understand this question. Gravel is heavy and it will sink no matter how much flow you have.

I don't believe my system or even yours is receiving much nitrate reduction from the sand beds. In both our display tanks the sand beds are not that deep--min is 2 inches and yours doesn't appear to be even that.

You may be correct on this. But everyone's system uses live rock, why do so many people have nitrate issues? I don't really know.

Before reading this, I was reading about the problem with DSBs is inadequate flow through them. I was thinking about a low or very low GPH pump and running some tubing with many very small holes in it through or under the sand bed to add flow to where there would be very little or no flow in a DSB.

You can't get flow through a DSB, it gets compacted and very little water will flow through it, if any. It is supposed to work by infusion but I feel that process is much too slow to be of much benefit.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Paul B


You may be correct on this. But everyone's system uses live rock, why do so many people have nitrate issues? I don't really know.

I definetly would not want to generalize here but possible answers to that would be:
relying too much on the dsb or expecting too much out of it.
I can remember you advising a certain grasshopper on here to cut back on the flake food he was using because even two dsb's could not handle that load

Poor circulation in the tank

Infrequent water changes or too many really small water changes(Randy recommends 30 per cent at one time to acutally reduce the nitrate levels)

Not maintaining the sand bed especially the top layer of it----too many predators munching on the top level of the sand bed--eg sand sifting starfish, hermits, horshoe crabs.

Vacuuming a sand bed----IMO its one thing to stir up the sand bed lightly which I do once a week with a turkey baster--but to stir it up and vacuum to me is removing some good bacteria and microscopic inverts/algae that are essential to passing nitrates down to the lower levels of the sand bed.

I really do believe that new reefers should be encouraged not to have deep sand beds but be encouraged to set up refugiums and put at least 1.5 lbs of live rock per gallon in their tank. This is one of the hardest things I find convenciencing people to do---spend the money on quality live rock ---"what that live is going to cost the same amt as my tank--no way"


After they get some experience under their belts then try a dsb but remotely from the display tank.

Paul, have you ever turned off the rugf for three or 4 days and monitored the nitrate levels in your tank. My bet is that you would never notice any difference???