Dinoflagellates.

[karimwassef]

Cyano and dinos have different causes and different fixes.

My conclusion is that dinos are in every system but are kept under control by the algae that normally occupy that part of the food chain and N, P cycles. When all things are in balance, algae take up excess N and P and dinos can't take over.

Overzealous reef keepers who remove all algae by eliminating either N or P (chemicals, C dosing) create an environment without limits to dinos. Once they take hold, dinos alter the chemistry to keep algae out.

The fix is to decimate their population and reestabliah safe zones for algae to thrive and rebalance the system. This sometimes includes adding N and P back to allow normal algae growth.

[Starvin Marvin]

Originally Posted by arkuranel

One should read 000 microsiemens but not even 001.
Root causes should be eleminated at first?

In most case people are going with TDS meter but around 005 - 006 microsiemens.

Ali,

Just to clarify, are you saying that a TDS meter should be giving results in microsiemens? I always thought it gave results in Total Dissolved Solids Parts Per Million.

Is it possible that a difference of 004 on a TDS meter will cause nuisance Algae issues?

By the time the RO comes out of my Tubing, it is approx 6 PPM TDS.

After it sits in the bucket for days, it usually is 8-11 PPM TDS.

Thank you for clarifying.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[africangrey]

I think this will help you to be familiarized with mohms or microsiemen for ultra pure water, or water for injection. Not sure if we need this kind of purity.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898154

Originally Posted by Starvin Marvin

Ali,

Just to clarify, are you saying that a TDS meter should be giving results in microsiemens? I always thought it gave results in Total Dissolved Solids Parts Per Million.

Is it possible that a difference of 004 on a TDS meter will cause nuisance Algae issues?

By the time the RO comes out of my Tubing, it is approx 6 PPM TDS.

After it sits in the bucket for days, it usually is 8-11 PPM TDS.

Thank you for clarifying.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bertoni]

Water should come out of a RO/DI setup at 0 ppm TDS. Once carbon dioxide and other compounds start entering it, the TDS will rise. That's not important as long as the containers are food-grade and not contaminated.

A TDS above zero out of a RO/DI unit means that the DI is shot:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

That article has more on what happens then.

[taricha]

Neat. 2 UV successes on less common species.
Hefner's = small cell amphidinium (like a. carterae) - UV won't work on common large cell amphidinium.
Trmiv's = Coolia


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[arkuranel]

Hello Steve,

Looking at the link of Randey Holmes:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

We read this:

“Monitor the DI resins by measuring the effluent’s conductivity, either with an inline meter (set to its most sensitive level), or by measuring the effluent manually. If you are using a TDS or conductivity meter, then the measured value should drop to near zero, or maybe 0-1 ppm TDS or 0-1 mS/cm. Higher values indicate that something is not functioning properly, or that the DI resin is becoming saturated and needs replacement. That does not necessarily mean, however, that 2 ppm TDS water is not OK to use. But beware that the flow of impurities and the conductivity may begin to rise fairly sharply when the resin becomes saturated. Do not agonize over 1 ppm versus zero ppm. While pure water has a TDS well below 1 ppm, uncertainties from carbon dioxide in the air (which gets into the water and ionizes to provide some conductivity; about 0.7 mS/cm for saturation with normal levels of CO2, possibly higher indoors) and the conductivity/TDS meter itself may yield results of 1 or 2 ppm even from totally pure water by not being exactly zeroed properly. Also note that the first impurities to leave the DI resin as it becomes saturated may be things that you are particularly concerned with (such as ammonia if your water supply uses chloramine or silica if there is a lot in the source water).”

The difference –apart from what they are- with TDS Meter and Conductivity Meter is simple: The probe is the same for conductivity and salinity, but for salinity readings a correction factor is applied to the conductivity value. The correction factor takes the conductivity reading and converts it to ppm of NaCl (table salt). Salts, minerals, and even dissolved gases contribute uniformly to the conductivity of a solution. This means that the conductivity can be used as an indicator of the amount of dissolved materials in a solution. TDS can be used fairly accurately when determining the concentration of a single salt, such as NaCl, but error can arise when trying to compare two different types of solutions.

So, in short I would offer a conductivity meter and to read 000 micro Siemens.


Returning back to “cause” of cyane and dino blooms (yes, I know the differences..) I put sand bottom and rocks slowly and continuously leaking phosphate, I am wondering whether there is any method to get aware of this? Apart from limewater or water changes? May be this:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2582403

Meaning we might rinse sand and/or rock with such a product –like a cure for 20 days- and then with RO water and then put it to the tank?

Would you offer any product –at this moment- for this purpose Bertoni?

[arkuranel]

Originally Posted by arkuranel

Hello Starvin,

Looking at the link of Randey Holmes:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

We read this:

“Monitor the DI resins by measuring the effluent’s conductivity, either with an inline meter (set to its most sensitive level), or by measuring the effluent manually. If you are using a TDS or conductivity meter, then the measured value should drop to near zero, or maybe 0-1 ppm TDS or 0-1 mS/cm. Higher values indicate that something is not functioning properly, or that the DI resin is becoming saturated and needs replacement. That does not necessarily mean, however, that 2 ppm TDS water is not OK to use. But beware that the flow of impurities and the conductivity may begin to rise fairly sharply when the resin becomes saturated. Do not agonize over 1 ppm versus zero ppm. While pure water has a TDS well below 1 ppm, uncertainties from carbon dioxide in the air (which gets into the water and ionizes to provide some conductivity; about 0.7 mS/cm for saturation with normal levels of CO2, possibly higher indoors) and the conductivity/TDS meter itself may yield results of 1 or 2 ppm even from totally pure water by not being exactly zeroed properly. Also note that the first impurities to leave the DI resin as it becomes saturated may be things that you are particularly concerned with (such as ammonia if your water supply uses chloramine or silica if there is a lot in the source water).”

The difference –apart from what they are- with TDS Meter and Conductivity Meter is simple: The probe is the same for conductivity and salinity, but for salinity readings a correction factor is applied to the conductivity value. The correction factor takes the conductivity reading and converts it to ppm of NaCl (table salt). Salts, minerals, and even dissolved gases contribute uniformly to the conductivity of a solution. This means that the conductivity can be used as an indicator of the amount of dissolved materials in a solution. TDS can be used fairly accurately when determining the concentration of a single salt, such as NaCl, but error can arise when trying to compare two different types of solutions.

So, in short I would offer a conductivity meter and to read 000 micro Siemens.


Returning back to “cause” of cyano and dino blooms (yes, I know the differences..) I put sand bottom and rocks slowly and continuously leaking phosphate, I am wondering whether there is any method to get aware of this? Apart from limewater or water changes? May be this:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2582403

Meaning we might rinse sand and/or rock with such a product –like a cure for 20 days- and then with RO water and then put it to the tank?

Would you offer any product –at this moment- for this purpose Bertoni?

[arkuranel]

sorry for this duplicate. I couldn't edit or delete my messages. Wish post number 4331 would be deleted by modarators.

[karimwassef]

Reducing phosphates for cyano is ok, but for dinos it isn't. For dinos, you actually need phosphates.

My best solution to reduce N and P is an algae scrubber.

[Magik]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

My conclusion is that dinos are in every system but are kept under control by the algae that normally occupy that part of the food chain and N, P cycles. When all things are in balance, algae take up excess N and P and dinos can't take over.

Overzealous reef keepers who remove all algae by eliminating either N or P (chemicals, C dosing) create an environment without limits to dinos. Once they take hold, dinos alter the chemistry to keep algae out.

Exactly my experience. Had dinos only once in my 7 years of reefing, soon after I started to dose vodka to keep my water "cleaner"

[nvladik]

Help ID for a friend please

[taricha]

Ostreopsis sesame seeds

[nvladik]

Originally Posted by taricha

Ostreopsis sesame seeds

Thanks, that's what I thought also.

[Crackem]

http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/cr...dfdzv.mp4.html


Hopefully this link works. It's a video. I'm hoping it's not Dino's.

[nvladik]

Originally Posted by Crackem

http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/cr...dfdzv.mp4.html


Hopefully this link works. It's a video. I'm hoping it's not Dino's.

Can't pull up the video...

[Hefner413]

Originally Posted by Crackem

http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/cr...dfdzv.mp4.html


Hopefully this link works. It's a video. I'm hoping it's not Dino's.

Video works fine for me. Could be cyano or dinos or both. You can tell better with a microscope or by doing some of the tests gone over previously in the thread (I'm not as familiar with these because I just used my child's toy microscope).

[taricha]

Originally Posted by Hefner413

Could be cyano or dinos or both. You can tell better with a microscope or by doing some of the tests gone over previously in the thread

Yeah. Microscope. If not, at least search for paper towel dino test.
I see a bunch of snails in the vid. Are they alive? If they are dead/dying, definitely dinos.
If the snails are healthy, then you'll have to do other tests.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[Crackem]

Originally Posted by taricha

Yeah. Microscope. If not, at least search for paper towel dino test.
I see a bunch of snails in the vid. Are they alive? If they are dead/dying, definitely dinos.
If the snails are healthy, then you'll have to do other tests.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

A lot of snails are dead, but I think it's mainly cause they fell over and couldn't turn back over. There are definitely a lot of snails that are alive.

[bheron]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Cyano and dinos have different causes and different fixes.

My conclusion is that dinos are in every system but are kept under control by the algae that normally occupy that part of the food chain and N, P cycles. When all things are in balance, algae take up excess N and P and dinos can't take over.

Overzealous reef keepers who remove all algae by eliminating either N or P (chemicals, C dosing) create an environment without limits to dinos. Once they take hold, dinos alter the chemistry to keep algae out.

The fix is to decimate their population and reestabliah safe zones for algae to thrive and rebalance the system. This sometimes includes adding N and P back to allow normal algae growth.

Thanks great comments! I completely agree however I'm still battling them. I rid them in the past by going "dirty" and basically overfed for weeks. Then started a huge GHA problem. Then installed a ATS. Tank got clean and now dinos back. I just confirmed I have the Amphidinium sp type.

So two questions based on your comments:

1) besides overfeeding how can I raise P04?

2) do I still run my ATS? Seems like a bit counterproductive?

[karimwassef]

wait.. you have a functioning scrubber and dinos? Are you sure?

dinos will generally kill a scrubber. Can you share some pics?

[jason2459]

IME, cyano and dinoflagellates go hand in hand and have had the same cause and fix in my system.

I've also had a thriving ATS and have had cyano and dino blooms at the same time.

I would not try and pin one thing to a species as diverse as dinoflagellates.

[bheron]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

wait.. you have a functioning scrubber and dinos? Are you sure?

dinos will generally kill a scrubber. Can you share some pics?

Here's a pic of my ATS. Not a great pic. The yellow in the middle is a result of their too much flow or too much light I believe.

So I have stump remover to raise NO3 but what should I use to raise PO4? My nitrates are usually at 5PPM so they're in check. but PO4 is always undetectable with a hanna low range checker.

[karimwassef]

ATS pulls on both N and P. If you're limited on one of them, you'll have less growth.

My readings for both N and P are usually very close to zero with my setup. That just means that my feeding is less than or in balance with the uptake in my system as a whole.

I'm not sure how to add just P.

I terms of cyano and dinos teaming up. They are linked but only one way. Dinos can create opportunities for a cyano "alliance" . But cyano doesn't always imply dinos are present or are coming - in my system at least.

[taricha]

Bheron, are you dosing anything other than ca,alk, stump remover?
I've come to conclusion that overfeeding is a really bad way to elevate nutrients when fighting dinos. I'll post links later, but basically macroalgae processes simple forms of N better than complicated ones (duh). But weirdly dinos uptake complicated forms of N (aminos) better than simple ones.
Stump remover is "better" than extra fish food.

Seachem flourish phosphorus is straight p and a (teensy bit of k).
For the more reckless, high p miracle grow liquid fertilizer is something I've used to raise p. At the levels we're talking about (
<.10ppm phosphate) the other things in there are vanishingly small. And if I'm running healthy algae in my system, I'm not worried about accumulation of weird trace metal stuff.

Cyano: From what I've seen ostis are not closely associated with cyano. amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye.
Jason's dinos showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano much like amphidinium in other systems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[bheron]

Originally Posted by taricha

Bheron, are you dosing anything other than ca,alk, stump remover?
I've come to conclusion that overfeeding is a really bad way to elevate nutrients when fighting dinos. I'll post links later, but basically macroalgae processes simple forms of N better than complicated ones (duh). But weirdly dinos uptake complicated forms of N (aminos) better than simple ones.
Stump remover is "better" than extra fish food.

Seachem flourish phosphorus is straight p and a (teensy bit of k).
For the more reckless, high p miracle grow liquid fertilizer is something I've used to raise p. At the levels we're talking about (
<.10ppm phosphate) the other things in there are vanishingly small. And if I'm running healthy algae in my system, I'm not worried about accumulation of weird trace metal stuff.

Cyano: From what I've seen ostis are not closely associated with cyano. amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye.
Jason's dinos showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano much like amphidinium in other systems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Thanks Taricha, great stuff. I was hoping to find a better way of dosing P and heard about the Seachem Flourish product. I'm thinking this is the route for my specific Dinos since the overfeeding seemed to control them before. I'm going to give this a try, along with stump remover, to keep N and P at optimum levels. N between 5 and 10 PPM and P you say between 0 and 0.1 PPM?

Also interestingly the scenario you outlined sounds like what happened to me - "amphidinium frequently follows cyano and happily colonizes a cyano mat, sometimes turning it brown to the eye....showed up on the sand and seemed hand in hand with cyano..."

Finally, you said "I'm running healthy algae". Can you expand on what you mean by that? I'm in the process of adding more space to my system, specifically for refugium purposes. Planning to stock it with the right microfauna, phytoplankton, zooplankton (still learning here).