New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[SPotter]

Im really curious to see if there's any heat transfer thru the prop housing on an external application. Temp issues could be a deal breaker for me.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by Johnseye

I contacted BRS to see if I could exchange it. They said they'd test it for me but if it's just running hot that's not a cause for exchange or return as it still does what it's supposed to, pump water. I also asked Tim Marks if he could help out and his statement was "We cannot do anything about this return as the OEM because we have no control over BRS or their policies. "

As more people use this pump then we'll learn its impact on water temp and know whether these are just anomalies. I personally can't have a 3-5 degree increase in my tank. I don't run a chiller, don't want to and I don't want to add fans. My next step may be to either buy another Red Dragon, or try a Fluval A/C pump rated at a similar flow to see if I get a temp increase.

John
Did you read my post today about all the tests I conducted. I did it to try to help you. I am guessing the Vectra might not be a good pump for your skimmer because it is trying to maintain a stated flow rate. Why don't you take it off your skimmer and run it submerged as a return or even just a closed loop and see how it does? That would answer the question about skimmer use. Best of luck.

RJ

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by SPotter

Im really curious to see if there's any heat transfer thru the prop housing on an external application. Temp issues could be a deal breaker for me.

All external pumps do transfer some heat to water through the device. I set mind up externally just to test the pump and EcoSmartLive. Pump was warm but not hot. I have a Panworld pump on my mix station to mix and lift water from basement. I get warmer than the Vectra at least after a few hours of operation. The Vectra seemed to warm up quicker than the cast iron Panworld and seemed to cool off quicker.

RJ

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by rjallen

All external pumps do transfer some heat to water through the device. I set mind up externally just to test the pump and EcoSmartLive. Pump was warm but not hot. I have a Panworld pump on my mix station to mix and lift water from basement. I get warmer than the Vectra at least after a few hours of operation. The Vectra seemed to warm up quicker than the cast iron Panworld and seemed to cool off quicker.



RJ

Was there a significant increase in water temp? I get zero increase in temps with my dolphin 4750 pumps and I'm running two on my closed loop systems. The motors get really hot but nothing transfers to the water...one of the reasons I chose the pump.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by rjallen

John
Did you read my post today about all the tests I conducted. I did it to try to help you. I am guessing the Vectra might not be a good pump for your skimmer because it is trying to maintain a stated flow rate. Why don't you take it off your skimmer and run it submerged as a return or even just a closed loop and see how it does? That would answer the question about skimmer use. Best of luck.

RJ

I did see your post and thank you. I could run a test and put two 90 elbows returning the water back into the sump and see if there's a temp increase. I could also try swapping it with my RD3 as a return. No closed loop for me. A shame this pump won't work with the skimmer. Thanks for the help RJ.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by SPotter

Was there a significant increase in water temp? I get zero increase in temps with my dolphin 4750 pumps and I'm running two on my closed loop systems. The motors get really hot but nothing transfers to the water...one of the reasons I chose the pump.

As I said previously, I cannot detect any change in temps in my 120.

RJ

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by rjallen

As I said previously, I cannot detect any change in temps in my 120.



RJ

Ok perfect!

[Eastamherstbias]

Originally Posted by Johnseye

I contacted BRS to see if I could exchange it. They said they'd test it for me but if it's just running hot that's not a cause for exchange or return as it still does what it's supposed to, pump water. I also asked Tim Marks if he could help out and his statement was "We cannot do anything about this return as the OEM because we have no control over BRS or their policies. "

As more people use this pump then we'll learn its impact on water temp and know whether these are just anomalies. I personally can't have a 3-5 degree increase in my tank. I don't run a chiller, don't want to and I don't want to add fans. My next step may be to either buy another Red Dragon, or try a Fluval A/C pump rated at a similar flow to see if I get a temp increase.

This whole thing sounds weird. There must be another factor playing a role into your increase. You have a lot of the same equipment as me and I do not have any noticeable increase in temperature. An 80w pump won't raise a 120g tank 5 degrees and if you are running it at 40w, it would play a small role in the temp of the tank. We need to move past one person "alleged" issue. It just sounds like you don't like it and are looking for a way to return it claiming an issue.

[CoralNerd]

It's two people now as pciscott mentioned on post 453. When there is smoke there is fire.

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

It's two people now as pciscott mentioned on post 453. When there is smoke there is fire.

His comment only says that the pump is hot which I would expect. He made no mention of tank temps.

[CoralNerd]

Originally Posted by pciscott

I put a M1 online last night in closed loop mode on Reef Crest yellow setting. The pump is mounted external and I am surprised how hot it is running and it ramps up and down. It is more than warm to the touch. I will look at my graphs in a few days to see if anything changed temp wise on Apex, this pump replaced a Reef Octopus 5500 DC pump on a closed loop on my frag tank.

Looking forward to hearing what your apex data reveals on tanks temperature.
Hopefully all is good.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

It's two people now as pciscott mentioned on post 453. When there is smoke there is fire.

He has a real problem and we have been trying to trouble shoot a new product. He is an experience aquarist with a good rep. on RC.

RJ

[Eastamherstbias]

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

It's two people now as pciscott mentioned on post 453. When there is smoke there is fire.

This whole thing is exhausting, It is two people. All pumps will give off some heat. Yes some heat of course will go into system. But there is no "if there is smoke there is fire kinda thing". I don't see any issue on this and I am normally all about conspiracy theories.

[CoralNerd]

I think we need more users to comment if the pump is hotter than norm. Too early to say either way, and in my book the jury is still out.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by Eastamherstbias

This whole thing sounds weird. There must be another factor playing a role into your increase. You have a lot of the same equipment as me and I do not have any noticeable increase in temperature. An 80w pump won't raise a 120g tank 5 degrees and if you are running it at 40w, it would play a small role in the temp of the tank. We need to move past one person "alleged" issue. It just sounds like you don't like it and are looking for a way to return it claiming an issue.

I said exchange not return. My hope was something was wrong with my pump, not the line. I was interested in exchanging mine for another.

If I didn't like the pump I would have said it and not wasted my time.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by coralnerd

i think we need more users to comment if the pump is hotter than norm. Too early to say either way, and in my book the jury is still out.

+++1

rj

[laverda]

If you put a pump in the sump that is using 50 watts more then your old pump. it is pretty much the same as adding a 50 watt heater that is on all the time to your system. The amount of heat introduced when run externally will be substantially less as most of the heat is dissipating to the air around the pump. One big advantage of external pumps is much less heat transfer depending on the pump. Running the pump internally will keep it cooler, so it should last longer.

[Eastamherstbias]

Originally Posted by rjallen

You are right 60-70watts vs 145 watt for the MAG18. It just the cooler temp. make it impossible to know why something is happening. If you ask what I believe, I think the M1 runs far more cooler than the MAG18. Wattage figures do not lie. But, so far, I have been unable to measure this.

RJ

I agree.

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by laverda

If you put a pump in the sump that is using 50 watts more then your old pump. it is pretty much the same as adding a 50 watt heater .... The amount of heat introduced when run externally will be substantially less as most of the heat is dissipating to the air around the pump. One big advantage of external pumps is much less heat transfer depending on the pump.

This

Originally Posted by gcarroll

You are correct for external pumps but for internal pump it is effectively a heater. The RD3 does loose some heat through the controller but if used internally all watts going into the pump motor would exit the pump as heat. The Ecotech also looses heat in the same manner but if internal it's gonna put out as much heat as is going to the pump motor as well just like any other pump.

And this.

Originally Posted by Johnseye

Wouldn't how that pump dissipates heat be a factor?

No. If it is submersed, the power used by the pump is dissipated into the water as heat.

Originally Posted by Johnseye

Or wouldn't how many watts used at the pump vs controller be a factor? If one pump which uses more power at the pump than another which uses less at the pump and more at the controller feels cooler than the other then wouldn't that be an indicator?

Yes, the power consumed by the controller will count towards the total power used, but unless there is a significant defect in the controller, the power consumption shouldn't vary much from unit to unit. Even it it does, that will not affect how much the pump heats the water. What you are hypothesizing is that one pump/controller combo has a pump that is using significantly less energy than average and at the same time a controller that is using significantly more; essentially two defects that occur at the same time to offset each other. Possible but very unlikely.

Originally Posted by Johnseye

I don't think there is any way to know how much power is being used at the pump vs. controller except perhaps with the Vectra where ESL displays only the pump wattage used.

In general no. There are ways of indirectly measuring current and voltage, but most of us won't be able to do that.

Originally Posted by slief

post removed

As gcarroll said, internal vs external is a totally different game. With internal all of the power consumed is transferred to the water. With external pumps, it is either transferred to the water or to the air. The relative proportion of these depends very much on the design of the pump. Your RD3 pump is not somehow keeping all the power consumption in the controller, rather is just more efficient at dissipating the heat to the air so it doesn't transfer it to the water.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

No. If it is submersed, the power used by the pump is dissipated into the water as heat.

Your RD3 pump is not somehow keeping all the power consumption in the controller, rather is just more efficient at dissipating the heat to the air so it doesn't transfer it to the water.

How then could one pump be more efficient at dissipating the heat outside of water but not inside?

The RD3 is 80w at the wall and the M1 is 90. With the RD3 having a controller it could be 70w at the pump and the M1 80 at the pump.

I'm very very tempted to use a Fluval SP4 in the same application to compare temps. It's an 88w pump but AC. No controller. Theoretically all 88w of heat will go into the water. The tank water should then increase from what it is now. Something I found interesting in that pump's advertising is "Low heat transfer to energy consumption. Fluval pumps run at a relatively cool temperature to avoid affecting the water temperature of the tank, whether running internally or externally." Not sure exactly what that means if 88w in is 88w out.

[rjallen]

I would like to get back to all users experiences with the system that makes up the Vectra and controllers. Heat is just one aspect and doubt it of major importance.

One last thing about this heat discussion. I am not an engineer or scientist and I am sure there are others out there better suited to explain all this but I will give one LAST attempt as I understand it.

First, it is very good general rule to say watts mean added heat in the aquarium. A 100 watt...pick your equipment... will put more heat into your system than a 50 watt version of the same type of equipment. But just because any piece of equipment consumes a certain amount of power does NOT mean all 80 watts are converted to heat. That would make the equipment 100% efficient and nothing is 100% efficient. In fact our heaters are far more efficient in producing heat from electrical power than pumps. I know I am stating the obvious but I think this needed to be said.

Pumps use those watts to do work and, as a by-product, heat. DC pumps are more efficient than AC pumps that is why they can move the same amount of water using less power. than an AC version. So DC pumps also produce less heat. So an 80 watt pump DOES NOT produce 80 watts worth of heat. A good bit of the power goes moving the impeller thus moving water. Some pumps produce less heat for a certain amount of work- moving water. There are many variables as why one pump would be more efficient than others and I will let that go as you can already figure out most or all of them.

If I am wrong on the above, I invite someone with more experience in this field to explain the error of my ways. If not, a lot of what has been previous said, right or wrong or just confused has taken up much space. So some 80 watt pumps are more efficient than others. It is too early to understand where exactly where the Vectra stands.

I sure would like to hear from other Vectra owners about their install, use and satisfaction or disappointment in their pumps.

RJ

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by SPotter

Im really curious to see if there's any heat transfer thru the prop housing on an external application. Temp issues could be a deal breaker for me.

I would expect to see some (particulately with a convection cooled pump), though I'd expect it to be just a small fraction compared to an internal installation.

[tkeracer619]

Originally Posted by rjallen

One last thing about this heat discussion. I am not an engineer or scientist and I am sure there are others out there better suited to explain all this but I will give one LAST attempt as I understand it.

First, it is very good general rule to say watts mean added heat in the aquarium. A 100 watt...pick your equipment... will put more heat into your system than a 50 watt version of the same type of equipment. But just because any piece of equipment consumes a certain amount of power does NOT mean all 80 watts are converted to heat. That would make the equipment 100% efficient and nothing is 100% efficient. In fact our heaters are far more efficient in producing heat from electrical power than pumps. I know I am stating the obvious but I think this needed to be said.

I am an engineer and while I don't want to pick your statement apart it is incorrect. The water moved by a pump requires energy to move it, this part of your statement is correct. What you are missing is that the water that is moved holds energy and as the water slows to a stop due to friction will release that energy as heat. Thus 100% of the energy supplied to an internal pump is transferred to the water as heat. A 100w submersible pump and a 100w heater supply exactly the same amount of heat to a water column. A watt is a unit of heat.

I just logged in after a few weeks of drowning in work + some personal issues and am honestly surprised at where this thread is. I'm going to take a minute and see how you folks got here...

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

I am an engineer and while I don't want to pick your statement apart it is incorrect. The water moved by a pump requires energy to move it, this part of your statement is correct. What you are missing is that the water that is moved holds energy and as the water slows to a stop due to friction will release that energy as heat. Thus 100% of the energy supplied to an internal pump is transferred to the water as heat. A 100w submersible pump and a 100w heater supply exactly the same amount of heat to a water column. A watt is a unit of heat.

I just logged in after a few weeks of drowning in work + some personal issues and am honestly surprised at where this thread is. I'm going to take a minute and see how you folks got here...

Never taken a fluid dynamics course in my life so I have some trouble with this as I wonder where all the heat genterated from 5 submerged pumps and 2 prop pumps goes? Think I have a total or around 300 watts from these sources and I STILL HAVE TO USE a 300 watt heater to maintain a 2-3 degree differerent with my house? It seems to me you are saying a pump it a machine that is 100% efficient as a heater? Does not make sense to me.....

Thanks for the input and I look forward to hearing more although we might want to transfer to another thread.

RJ

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

What you are missing is that the water that is moved holds energy and as the water slows to a stop due to friction will release that energy as heat. Thus 100% of the energy supplied to an internal pump is transferred to the water as heat.

1st law of thermodynamics

I'm tagging along hoping for more reviews of the pump, less about the anecdotes of excessive heat transfer!