Algae Scrubber Advanced

[Psyops]

Not as experienced as you guys but I have been running my scrubber for 2 years now. This thread sounds interesting to me. I did notice something interesting last week. I have been running a calcium reactor for 2 weeks now and have noticed a great improvement with my growth. This is obvious why, but I don't know what the longterm affect would be on my system with my scrubber growing more. Meaning possibly taking up too much nutrients. On one of the comments earlier, can you just turn off one side of the scrubber lights and leave the other side on and alternate?

Interested to see what the O2 sensor info is going to provide.

[maglofster]

Interesting to hear. I have heard and also experienced this about the growth getting improved by either a reaktor, kalkwasser or ca/kh additives being added.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I just learned that if you have low CO2 due to high scrubber algae growth, then the algae will start assimilating bicarbonate (alk) instead, but I haven't heard anything about growth affecting calcium uptake.

specifically:

Alkalinity may in some cases be decreased, because of algae's ability to use bicarbonate to get CO2, but this depends on how much CO2 is in your water, and how strong your scrubber is. If you have lots of CO2 (low pH), then alk will not be affected, and pH will be raised.

[Psyops]

Hopefully some algae experts can tune in here to give some perspective.

[srusso]

Here is my PAR reading from my CFLs to my screen.

226 at 4" and 302 at 3"
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1308421562.648358.jpg

Used my fish net to push my hanging light an inch closer.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1308421676.600470.jpg

FYI I did push the screen back to account for the 1" sensor width.

Bulbs are two months old.

I hang them horizontally which creates a more even light coverage. This corrects "hot spots" on algae screens when the CFL is pointed at the screen. Unfortunately or fortunately (depends how you look at it.) this puts 100+ PAR in my sump which has created wonderful place for mysis, pods and worms live undisturbed.

[jbannick18]

Originally Posted by srusso

If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.

This would be awesome, just started looking into this instead of going the skimmer route and reading 70 pages could give me a headache

[jh2pizza]

Is it Par that you are seeking or levels of particular spectrums? What is the spectrums that most algae goes at?

[Melifluonze]

Maybe this isn't the spot, but...

I've been reading about Chillers (Had the Dorm Fridge idea stuck in my head and it's really good that I did some reading!).

The thing I've tripped over a number of times is using evaporation to chill, 8,000 BTU per gallon evaporated, "they" (we?) say.

So, is it safe to say that an open Algae Scrubber, say 26" long by about 12" high, running in open air, is a good chiller solution?

I seem to run up to about 80 degrees inside the house during the day, and the 90 gallon test tank I have runs itself up to a frightening 84 degrees (maybe more if I leave the lights on! ).

On the "real" 220g tank I'm setting up (with a scrubber), my sump is in the basement and the scrubber would be working in basically 65 degree air all the time. There's a 3/4 HP return pump and I'm going to run three 175W halides + some fluorescents to start, right over the water, but separated from it by... something... (working on that now).

Think the evap from the scrubber (+ 30g open scrubber sump, + 120g open sump tank) will work?

Think this'll work?

[Floyd R Turbo]

In short, yes. Even better, put a fan on it. You will want a temp controller because an open-air screen with convection will drop your temp very well.

just to be clear, you're running the MHs and Fluorescents where?

[Melifluonze]

Lights are over the display tank. Just mentioned them as the heat generators in the system (waste heat generators, that is)

[srusso]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

In short, yes. Even better, put a fan on it. You will want a temp controller because an open-air screen with convection will drop your temp very well.

just to be clear, you're running the MHs and Fluorescents where?

Reading his post and writing my reply in my head as I read, you wrote almost the exact words I was going to type.

+1

[pskelton]

We all know that an ATS can allow us to significantly reduce our water change frequency. This is a touchy subject that a lot of people feel strongly about and the above statement is usually followed by the disclaimer stating that this is if the purpose of water changes is for nitrate reduction.

The major reason for an ATS system to get periodic water changes would be to replenish trace elements and such. I was wondering if anyone had thought about developing a DIY food which would naturally contain such trace minerals. I would think that if you could feed your tank with such a food you could maintain your trace elements through feeding and further push out your water changes. I understand you can buy supplements and dose your tank accordingly but this is just something I have been thinking about.

[Floyd R Turbo]

This is exactly what I do. Rod's Food is great because it's a total tank food. My local club gets together every 6 months or so and makes about a 3 gallon batch of DIY food that contains various seafood, off-the-shelf fish food, and coral foods like Cyclopeeze, Reef Chili, etc. It's essentially a DIY version of Rod's.

I don't do any PWCs unless it's a last resort, like one of those 'gut' feelings, like I notice something odd and I default to doing a water change to see if it helps (which, so far, it has made no difference)

[slow_leak]

I would warn about taking a type of filtration as a sole ideology. Salt water parameters are measured by basic parameters. Some would argue that not doing any water changes will cause a closed reef tank to crash hard eventually. MudShark is one of the few TOTM examples I ever saw that was excellent condition. He eventually moved away from technique. I run Skimmer and scrubber. Scrubber product is negligible.

ATS will remove inorganic nitrogen and phosphates with ease however.

As far as trace elements go, if you choose to use them, I like the idea of using only elements that are known to deplete readily. The ones that depleted readily can also lead to excess algae growth. I have tried Iron Gluconate, Potassium Iodine, and Potassium Sulfate. I would like to have evidence if ATS can deplete potassium like vascular fresh water plants do. I am currently using a little TLF Sea Elements. I am not a fan of control bleaching experiments like Zeovit personally. It looks risky and unnatural.

I have enjoyed results of scrubber over last 9 months. Cyano faded and hair has made a very slight come back. I will just use a few herbivores as I got away with just snails in last 9 months. Coloration and maintenance are easy and will keep running it.

[pskelton]

I understand the debate on filtration ideology and I understand it is not without risk. I also don’t want to suggest one method over another or even say the method I use is better or worse than another. What I want is to see how far this technology can be pushed and where its limitations are.

My tank is running with a scrubber as its only filtration and I know there are proven methods available that work well and produce beautiful reef tanks. For me I like the excitement of doing something different and the experimentation that is involved.

Anyone wish to share how long they have gone without a water change on their scrubber only filtered tanks? Has anyone had any problems or any lessons learned?

[slow_leak]

What do you mean by limits? Bad growth, crash, algae everywhere?

[Floyd R Turbo]

There is a fundamental limit to the amount of algae that can be grown on a screen of given size with given flow and given light from a given source. Word of the day: given

As far as limits go, many of them are generally assumed based upon anecdotal data, but not many have been truly (scientifically) tested. Such as the upper limit of copper presence before algae is killed or growth/filtraion is hindered, actual uptake rates of certain nutrients, I could go on but you get the general idea.

I do know that someone did carry out an experiment of sorts to see what effect iron dosing had on growth. It went so far as to dump an entire bottle (I think 500mL) of Kent's Iron/Manganese into a 90 gallon system in one shot. This resulted in a lot of coral mortality, but it gave insight into the scrubber's ability to handle such a large dose. Not scientific either.

Some of these things are tests I might try to perform once I get finished with my LED experiements.

[Psyops]

One of you guys mentioned carbonate intake by ATS. My ATS was working ok for 2 yrs. I finally added a Ca Reactor 3 months ago. I noticed immediately that my GHA was growing at an alarming rate. What I noticed was that my Alk readings stayed about the same but my Ca numbers were slowly creeping up. From 400ppm to about 415-425. Everything else staying consistent. Like you guys are saying. Provide more nutrients and your ATS will work better. My calcium reactor effluent dumps before my ATS intake pump. Hope this contributes to any helpful info for you guys.

[kcress]

Psyops; Wait, the GHA you're referring to is your ATS GHA? So this is good right?
That would mean for more GHA to grow there is going to be more N and P uptake.

[madean]

Just curious as to what peoples take on the idea of using an ats for filtration for breeding. In a breeding setup, lets say for clowns, there is a large amount of feeding going on a large amount of waiste. And there can be a large turnover with fish entering and leaving the system. Plus were talking about growing fish from eggs to adolescents. Does anybody see any issues with an ats interferring with the growth of fish. possibly uptaking too many nutrients or the wrong nutrients that can affect growth in fish. This idea seems like it would be great for a fish breeding system. Just trying to get other peoples opinions to make a good decision for my application.

[kcress]

I would think an ATS would be ideal for breeding. Large nitrate excursions should be handled in stride. You'll probably be getting some pods into the water column that fry would love.

[Dave1NC]

Just following along...

Someone earlier asked about doing water changes when running an ATS. I don't do them in my 240g mixed reef. I do however add ALK, CAL, Mag, Lugol's, SeaChem Reef+ and top-off with Kalk. I've been doing this now for about 4 months and have had good success. I also use Phosban when my PO4 levels start to creep up.

[Psyops]

Originally Posted by kcress

Psyops; Wait, the GHA you're referring to is your ATS GHA? So this is good right?
That would mean for more GHA to grow there is going to be more N and P uptake.

Kcress; yes ATS GHA. My Ph is around 8.15-8.22. I guess maybe I have too little CO2 so myATS is using up carbonate. I agree, it is a good thing. My system is healthier as a result, but I dose soda ash in my top off water to keep the Alk around 9. If you have any other ideas on what I could do to maintain alk please let me know.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by Psyops

Kcress; yes ATS GHA. My Ph is around 8.15-8.22. I guess maybe I have too little CO2 so myATS is using up carbonate. I agree, it is a good thing. My system is healthier as a result, but I dose soda ash in my top off water to keep the Alk around 9. If you have any other ideas on what I could do to maintain alk please let me know.

Kalk... In your ATO... Both Kh and Ca

[Psyops]

Originally Posted by srusso

Kalk... In your ATO... Both Kh and Ca

I don't need Calcium. My levels are ok from the reactor. Our guess is it's probably the carbonate is beng taken up from the ATS. But thanks for the input. Don't want to minimize your comment by any means. My calcium levels are actually gone up a little.

I also forgot to mention that my Skimmer air intake is from outside. It makes sense that maybe I would have less CO2 in my system. I guess I can experiment and have my skimmer intake from inside the house. Too chicken to change things at this point.