Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[john f]

Brian,
You got one of my positions correct:
1. Ich is always present in a reef tank. Maybe not ALWAYS (strong word) but petty damn close

But I did not say quarantine isn't necessary or helpfull. I said it has never helped me prevent an ICH outbreak. It is a good practice for other things, just not ICH.
Also, I have no idea who Terry B is and did not "Come out of the woodwork" to argue with him. We had a discussion (your word) in another thread and it has carried over into this thread because both are about Crypto.

He advocates hyposalinity (Can't do it in a reef tank anyway) and I advocate elevated temps (can do in reef tank) as a way to stop an ICH outbreak.
He thinks proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks and I do not. These are our disagreements.
Since I have a regular job like most of us I don't really have the time or know how to conduct scientific experiments using controls in order to study this situation. If someone else on this board does I would be glad to assist financially in the undertaking.

John

[BrianD]

John, I understand what you are saying. We will just agree to disagree

[Terry B]

Hey John,
Call it a battle if you will, but you had better come well armed (well informed). First lets clarify something. I never said that low level infections are not possible. There is a small degree of resistance in some fish that have been previously exposed. If you have a precarious balance between the fish and the parasite anything that tips that balance can cause the infection to manifest and progress. It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay in tack for years. What I said is that it is not always present. It has been proven in clinical trails that Cryptocaryon irritans will die out from a lack of host fish. It can also be eliminated from a system and the fish by correctly administering an effective treatment. As I mentioned in a previous post much of the confusion lays in the fact that most people don’t understand all the ways that Crypt. can be imported.
Staph does not rely on a host fish to survive. It can be found most anywhere like on your cutting board at home, or in an operating room. The word obligate means the pathogen cannot survive by feeding on other things. This means the host must be present. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate pathogen unlike most bacteria.
There is not one single public aquarium to my knowledge that does not strictly practice quarantine, and for good reason. I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine. Ich is always present in nature, but our aquariums are a highly different matter.
I would like to know who you would acknowledge as an authority on this subject. You seem to have dismissed three experts that I have already sited. Would you say the two leading experts in the United States on Aquatic Medicine are not good references? How about Dr. Colorni? Dr. Colorni is considered the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. I do correspond with Dr. Colorni and he is a very nice person. I address many of your questions in an up and coming two-part article that will appear in the near future in FAMA.
I can supply you will scientific journals to look up or books to buy. Can you support any of your contentions in the same manner?
HTH,
Terry B

[Outerbank]

Jim, I would see if you could coax your shrimp into a trap or out with some food. I would recommend hyposalinity for treatment according to Terry. This could also potentially rid your system of ich is you do it for 6 weeks or so. Watch your pH and dKh and adjust as needed. I am a big advocate of the hyposalinity but lack the researched info to support it--that's ok for me anyways, so many research studies have a lot of arguable methods and database analysis. It has just worked great for me and the fish did not seem stressed at all. That's my 2 cents of advise and I am not here to argue/discuss about ich presence, appropriate research articles, etc. I will leave that to those that are so willing to study this for us for our benefit.

Scott

[Lobster]

Hi Jim. I'm also in Costa Mesa, right near South Coast Plaza.

But anyway, I have found that there are a couple of assumptions you can make that can help you battle ich. First of all, assume that it is always present. Semantics are irrelevant, lets just assume (or pretend depending on your stance) that it is present. Second, assume that the reason the ich has escalated is the existence of a stressor.

With this in mind, you combat ich by subduing the parasites while eliminating the stressor -- the latter of these being the key. Most would agree that eliminating the parasite from the fish without eliminating the stressor is futile, as your fish will likely be reinfested. Find what is stressing your fish, whether it is temperature fluctuations, a dietary deficiency, harassment by a tankmate... whatever. I must say that six months seems a little young to be housing delicate fish, but that's certainly arguable.

I would certainly stay away from medicinal treatment for your main tank, including Melefix (no offense GM). This stuff smells like soap. Anyway, what I would do is continue the garlic treatment with dried nori, and perhaps some soaked in Selcon now and then. Saturating food with garlic lets you concentrate treatment on the fish and not the tank. Also, while I certainly won't say "brocolli is useless" as a food, I will say that you should not rely on it as the only vegetable (or other) matter in your tang's diet. Variety will provide better nutrition.

Anyways, I treated some gobies and wrasse with garlic this way, and the cysts had bailed by the next morning. At the same time I searched for the cause of the stress. I thought it may be stray voltage, so I first added a grounding probe and did a minor water change for good measure. After a couple of days, I stopped the garlic treatment, but the ich began to reappear. Apparently voltage was not the problem, but I noted my temperature fluctuated quite a bit with the onset of summer (as much as 10F, ouch), so I took measures to stabilize it. After straightening that out, I stopped the garlic treatment a few days later, and the ich never showed up again.

As always, this is merely offered for consideration and not intended to serve as "the rule".

[john f]

Hey Terry,
Whats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.
The fact that your are well read on this subject does not defacto make your case.

"I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine"

So what, how does that prove your point that proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks?

I have not had ICH for over a year in my 135 (this is the only tank I have had problems, out of several) I also have in quarantine 2 pyramid butterfly fish which have shown no outward signs of disease for 2 months.
Want to bet that when I add them to my 135 which has a large, nasty tomato clownfish, they will get ICH?

If Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.

"It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay intact for years" Do you have any proof of this? Sounds like speculation to me.

Terry,
Lets cut to the chase. Do you advocate hyposalinity for treatment IN THE REEF TANK?
If not it is pointless to advocate it at all for many reefers. Many of us will simply not tear apart a longstanding reef system in order to catch all the fish for treatment in another tank.

What we need is a reliable, in tank treatment. I believe this can be found.

I also think an expert in any disease is the guy who knows how to cure it, not simply describe it. So bring on all your references and pointy headed scholars. Not one of them has a reef safe treatment for ICH, and I am telling you from 10+ years keeping reefs that elevated temps have worked with greater than moderate (but not total) success for me.

Come up with a better method and I will try it. I always have an open mind, unlike some

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-15-2000).]

[jim]

Thanks for all the advice.

I am now feeding my fish a combination of formula 1 & 2, Angel formula, brine shrimp, Broccoli, Nori and spirulina flakes.

The house is air conditioned / heated so temp only changes @ 1 degree per day.

The stressor may be harassment from other fish, but it is not really directed toward either sick fish.

I do agree that I should have waited longer to put these two fish into this young tank.

I am in the process of lowering my salinity to 1.009 for 4-6 weeks. This should take a week.

I am trying to catch my 3 shrimp with an acrylic trap, but may have to sacrifice them if they can't be caught in the next week.

Also, since my tank is only 1/2 stocked, I may have other outbreaks. I know people on this board don't like copper, but it is much easier to administer than hypo, expecially in ongoing problems. I will try the hypo this time, but next time . . who knows.


Jim

[Larry M]

John--I think you are out of line with your approach to this discussion. I don't see anywhere that Terry claimed to be an expert. What I have seen him do is help many people over the years save their fish. Not everyone agrees with his approaches, that is fine. But I have seen countless posts from hobbyists thanking him for his advice which saved their fish.

Until you can produce something other than "this works for me" I don't think you have any room to talk.

If you wish to disagree, you are most welcome to. If you want to attack for no good purpose, that will make you not welcome here very fast.

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[Phishmon]

Your Powder blue is most likely fighting a little with the naso and yellows
they tend to fight for territory
also Powders get HUGE
and tend to be ich magnets in any size system

the personifer is prolly being stressed out by the flame angel
since it is new to the sysem
they will arrive at a pecking order eventually

were the yellow tangs added before or after the powder blue???
pairs of yellow tangs are more aggressive than odd numbered schools


you can help break up the territories
by feeding Nori (seaweed for sushi rolls)
on different clips and attached to rocks with rubberbands
(we call them Nori bombs) sorry garf we trademarked that term

this allows the angels and tangs to feed in seperate areas
they will get more food and it will be less stressful
broccoli isnt really doing much but passing through thier systems with litle nutritional value
I dont care what anyone says it is not helpful even for HLLE

using the garlic will help
boosting the immune sysem is key
but the problem here is stress (MOST LIKELY)
Iit sounds like stress from the system or other fish not a personal thing
all tangs and angels are exposed to chemicals after collection that doesnt help the personifer much

selcon is good to add to the foods for boosting the system

you dont mention your salinity at that temperature your running
just curious
low salinities in systems for long periods of time will stress the fish out also

as for hyposalinity

not a good idea in a tank with invertebrates
not just the cleaners are the verts
the rock may as well be considered as well
the critters in the sand bed will
populate the rocks


also I wouldthig about gettig more life i the sand bed
since ich is part of the meiofauna of the system
it contributes to that small but huge food chain for the little critters of our system



HTH


[This message has been edited by Phishmon (edited 09-15-2000).]

[john f]

Fine Larry, I'll give in.
I don't think if you read my posts they were EVER attacking Terry. I was having a discussion about some advice I disagree with.
I have been visiting and posting to this site for quite some time and just because I disagree with Terry on this issue does not make me out of line. We probably agree on 99% of all issues so I do not see Terry as my enemy. I am simply trying to debate a point.
In his last post I thought he was rather rude and arrogant in his reply to me. He seems to think because he knows people or writes an article for FAMA (my neighbor has done that) that his position is correct.

Let me clarify my points one last time before I go, maybe to never post again (I'm sure that would break you up Larry)

1> Ich is ALMOST always present in REEF tanks containing several fish, even if no recent addition have been made.

2> Hyposalinity is NOT a valid treatment IN the REEF tank itself.

3>Elevated temps have worked well FOR ME.
They are not a 100% cure all, but have helped ME.

If you or anyone else wants to show me articles which prove either 1 or 2 wrong, please do so.

As for #3 this is just my anecdotal observation so I do not expect it to be accepted as fact.

I do not doubt Terry gives lots of great advice and I do not question his knowledge or credentials. I simply disagree on these key issues and attemped to debate him on these. Nothing more.
Sorry to have offended you sensabilities.

See you at MACNA???

John

[billsreef]

Jim,
I think Phishmon hit nail on the head for the stressors. Watch their behavior closely, you might need to make some decisions on who to keep and who to take out for the sake of long term stability.

John,
I think you'll find that Terry advocates methods that come very close to 100% cure rates. The secret to an Ich free tank (yes I do believe this is possible) comes from rigorous quarantine from day one and fish #1 as any fish that is not Q'd can be a carrier. Also I think if you were to ask Terry for his list of references, rather than attack them, he would be glad to provide them. If you get those references from Biosystems and read them I think you will find that Terry does indeed research his info quite well.

As to reef safe remedies I haven't seen one yet that is truly reliable over a broad range of instances. The reason that is so difficult to find a reliable reef safe remedy is that so far anything that can reliably kill ich also has a negative impact on inverts, I don't see how this invalidates Dr. Colorni's information. As for 86F for treating ich, I have seen it infect fish at those temps without effecting a cure and to go much higher than that will also have a negative effect on many inverts.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos
ICQ 56222784

[Biosystems]

Not that I think it is any point to keep arguing or giving the appearance of ganging up on John-but I will get the articles to him this weekend and he will see that the published optimal temp for crypto is 30C; however, that does not make him wrong.


There is more to his temperature theory than anecdotal evidence that crypto is killed at high temps. It has been used in the past with success and has been published as such-for certain types of fish it is safe. I only argue that I do not think that fish should be subjected to these temps for the reasons stated in the other post.


Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.


Tim

[Doug]

Hi Jim,

All of the others have given great advice but I just wanted to share what I have done to treat my sick fish with some limited success and also offer my opinion on fish and ich.

Whenever I would see the first sign of ich on my fish I would start feeding them food soaked in Selcon. While I do not have any scientific background I have had some good success using this product. I have treated at least five fish using Selcon over the last couple of years and have had an 80% success rate. These were mild cases of ich (I say mild cases because the fish were still eating well) on the fish which I detected early on but it did seem to work very well for me.

Here are some of the reasons that I have used Selcon over other treatment methods.
With the way my tanks are setup I would have to remove all of the rock and corals to catch a sick fish so the q-tank option is not an option for me. Also, I have not had ich (knock on wood) since I learned of Terry's hyposalinity method so I have never had to use it and cannot comment. While I did try copper a long while back in a hospital tank I ended up killing all of the fish I was treating because of some bad advice on the copper level and a bad test kit. As far as the reef safe products I just do not feel safe using a that type of product. Not because they do not work but because it is something that I do not feel safe with myself.

It seems to go back to what both Phil and Bill said about stress and the immune system. Although fish and people are very different we see the problems that stress can cause on the human body and in other amimals.

So, just from my own observation it does seem that vitamin supplments such as Selcon can help a fish recover from illness but as long as the stress is still in the tank the fish will never fully recover no matter how much we try to boost the immune system. I also feel that some fish are better able to deal with stress than others. I have seen a tank with damsels chase and nip each other and live without illness for a long time and I have also seen a coral beauty chase a flame angel to illness and death in a short period of time. So not only do we need to deal with stress in general it seems, from my observation, that the type of fish is a factor in how much stress will affect a particular fish.

Again, this is just my opinion and I hope it just may give you a little more info and help in treating your sick fish.

As far as if ich is in our tanks at all times or not, I have no clue and cannot prove it either way so I can't comment. All I care about is providing my animals with the best enviorment possible in captivity and treating them in the best way I can if they do become ill. No matter what the cause of the illness is the main thing that I am concerned with is the recovery of the animal and hopefully minimizing the change of the illness occuring again.

Best wishes Jim and I hope everything works out not matter what you choose to do.

Doug

------------------
Doug's Reef and Fish Page

Before you break the door down with an axe, try the doorknob first!

[Lobster]

Phishmon sounds right on the money. Separate feeding areas is a great idea.

I've never heard of anyone claiming Selcon directly fighting ich, but like Doug said, its good stuff. I suppose its entirely possible that the stressor could be an improper diet, so taking steps to rule this out (which it sounds like you are) is a really good thing.

As I said above, fight the ich AND the stressor and you're on the right track.

Treating the tank via hyposalinity or medication just seems like a bad idea to me, but this is merely opinion. Yes, shifting salinity may very well knock the cysts off, but I would worry that the salinity change could cause the inhabitants (sick or not) even further stress.

Regarding the in-tank ich treatment - dont hold your breath. Even if one does show up, I wouldnt pour the assumably vile substance in my reef until a 5-10 year track record proved it had absolutely NO effect on anything other than ich, which is highly unlikely.

Good luck, Jim!

[O'Man]

I thought that the goal of elevated temp. was to increase respiration and therefore "speed-up" the ick's lifecycle. I remember reading that ick treatments tended to work best when the ick was in the free swimming and not the cyst stage. A faster life cycle ment less time in the cyst stage and more opportunity to attack it while it was free swimming. I always figured it was a gamble to see if you could knock-off more of it that the quantity that came back and attached to the fish.... maybe this is outdated info or just an old wives tale. Got me

Also, reducing stressors and using cleaner shrimp to keep the ick in check while the fish's immune system goes to work, has worked for me. Not 100%, but it has kept the losses to a minimum. Fish in an understocked, stress free tank seem to do best.

[lori344]

John and Terry,

Please, Please, Please step back, do some square breathing and ease up on each other. Personally I don't want to loose either of you. I'm learning a boat load from your discussion!!! Both of you are guilty of passive agressive and defensive language in this discussion. Perhaps John shouldn't have used the word "battle" in his first respose, I don't think he meant to be so harsh. (IMO, I don't know John) The information you two are sharing with us is important and VERY appreciated. Opinions, and experience matter. It is said wisdom comes from experience. And everyone's including yours, mine and Dr Colorni's matter. IMHO we all may learn something here from you two. Speaking for myself, I have already learned more about treating Cryptocaryon irritans, I have more options should i have to face it again. A debate shouldn't get into mud slinging (boy there is a lot of testosterone on this thread.) Please, gentlemen you are both invaluable. Don't muddy the water with competition.

Best Regards,
~lori


------------------
Like fine wine, reefs take patients & time

[This message has been edited by lori344 (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Terry B]

John,
At first I thought your intent was a good old-fashioned debate. I can appreciate that, because I enjoy a good debate. Then you became antagonistic with comments like “Whats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.� For the benefit of other reading this thread I will respond. Some of the information that is contained in the two part article has not, to my knowledge ever been published in a hobbyist magazine. It describes what we know now about the life cycle and updates this information. I also go into some details about how the parasite can be imported that we did not understand previously. I expect with your attitude that you would have nothing good to say about it and you probably won’t learn a thing.
My point in saying that all public aquariums quarantine is to point out that they all believe it is beneficial and does greatly reduce the chances importing it into their displays. I guess you stand-alone on this one. Then you show your blatant disrespect for the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. You said “If Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.� Your idea of raising the temp to treat SW ich is a very old one. Did you think you were the first with the idea? It has been used with FW ich for a very long time. The problem is that it does not work for saltwater. I guess if someone says they cured ich by putting peanut butter in their tank that we should believe that is what happened despite any scientific evidence to the contrary. This sounds like a don’t confuse me with the facts attitude. Then you accuse me of speculating yet this is all your opinion is based upon.
Why don’t you ask anyone on this board if I have ever advocated using hyposalinity in a reef tank? I can say that I have strongly advocated disease treatments that actually work on a consistent basis, and an awful lot of people have thanked me for helping them save their fish. How about you? If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide.
I am not particularly an advocate of using garlic to treat Ich. The reason is not that garlic doesn’t work. It is because other methods are more consistently effective. I don’t see anything wrong with using it as a stop gap method to control an infection in a reef. You don’t believe it works at all, but there are many more people that believe it helps. To sum it up, you discount methods that do work in favor of one that doesn’t based on your personal experience. Do you even know for sure your fish actually had Crypt? There have been dozens of treatments over the years that claim to cure Ich. There is always someone that says something like “Coral Vital cured ich for me.� Sometimes people get lucky, sometimes people think white spots are always Ich when it’s not, and yes once in a while ich does go away on its own. Why don’t you put yourself to your own test and answer the same questions that you ask others? You have not in any way come up with a reef safe cure. People reading this thread would be wise to stick to methods that actually have shown to work on a consistent basis, especially those that have been proven scientifically. Don’t bet your fish’s lives on one person’s “it worked for me.�
Terry B

[billsreef]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Biosystems:
Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.

---

Tim that would be a great idea

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos
ICQ 56222784

[john f]

Terry,
Why don't you read #3 and my follow up to it above.
And it is your (pardon me) arrogant attitude which caused me to become slightly antagonistic. If you can't understand that and back down a little we will have to agree to disagree.
I never have claimed that elevating temps is some kind of new idea. I got the idea from Frank Hoff who got the idea from Spotte apparently.
It seems your major argument with me is the elevated temps. Fine, I have no proof it works, just observations. This seems the same to me as the garlic crowd yet you seem to favor or at least remain neutral to that for in reef treatment.
"If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide"
This is the kind of attitude that gets me (and anyone else you try it on) going.
I did not think we were trying to win a personal experience argument.

If someone posts to this board with fish IN THE REEF tank having ICH and does not/cannot catch the fish out, your advice can't help them past eliminating stressors, increasing water quality, etc. Same stuff we ALL know.
I'm not claiming I can help them either. I'll just help myself.
I appreciate the help you have given to many over the years.
So tell me this:

????How do you propose I eliminate the possibility of an ICH outbreak in my 135 reef with 8 resident fish, some of which have been in the tank for 9+ years???

I can't (have tried) catching them out, and I quarantine new additions for 1-2 months in a coral growout system before adding them to my 135. I mention this beacuse I have 2 butterflyfish ready to go in the tank, but I know when they do go in they will get ICH.

I hope to meet you at MACNA so maybe we can kiss and makeup. As I said above we probably agree 99% of the time, and it's always nice to meet and learn from others.


John

[Steve Richardson]

"but I know when they do go in they will get ICH"

really. Bummer. Never had it myself.

juuuust lucky, I guess.

John - just to satistfy my own curiosity about stocking levels, etc.. can you describe your fish (make/model /size) please?

-S

[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 09-16-2000).]

[john f]

Yes I'd be glad to.
This tank is the only one out of several I have and currently run that seems to have an Ich problem, and I have been very frustrated over the years when I try and put new fish in.

Tank: 135 reef ready.

Circulation: Iwaki 100rlt with twin sea swirls.

Live sand bed (4") and about 200lbs LR (Figi and Marshall island, as well as some Florida from the old days.

Lights: two 250 watt MH 12K and one 400 watt 12K

corals: Dozens, from shrooms, leathers, and xenia, to Acropora, montipora, seriatopora, as well as 2 anenomes (1 bubble tip about 10 months and 1 H. crispa about 3 years)

Fish: 1 pair ocellaris clownfish (10+ years)
(raised about 4 groups of offspring)
1 yellow tang (5 years) 4 inches
1 sand goby (6 years) 3 inches
1 black blenny (1 year) 3 inches
1 pair Bangai cardinal 2 inches each (3+ years and 4 sets of offspring)
1 3" anthias unknown species(5 months)
1 Fire (or tomato) clownfish (2 years)

The large clownfish I believe is the cause of Ich on my new additions lately as he is a major bully. Unfortunately I can't seem to catch him. Have tried traps, hooks, nets, etc. He is VERY elusive and smart (for a fish)

I also think the yellow tang caused some of my past problems as I have tried to add other
tangs (kole, blue) and he laid a whooping on
'em.
I think when I add the pyramids the tang and the clownfish may take turns on them. This is why they might get Ich.
But since I have quarantined them and not had ANY additions (corals included) for the past 5 months they should be fine according to all you guys, right

John

[Steve Richardson]

"they should be fine according to all you guys, right "

well... no. No need to get defensive. Trust me - we are all on the same side here.

Sounds like you know what your problem is though. You are fortunate enough to have some aggressive fish. The multiple Clownfish will lead to agression in A.frenatus, no doubt. I had to remove my percula clowns away from 'Big Ben the Killer Tomato' for the same reason. (Actually, I should hall her 'Benita'.



The same can be said for your Yellow Tang... many have had success keeping a yellow and something else like a Purple or Sailfin together, it doesnt really surprise me you have had trouble there as well.

If you have a chronic problem with ICH, you may want to consider doing something about your combating occupants. Have you considered giving away your perculas or yellow tang? Perhaps things would improve next time you choose to add something.

Of course, like I said... this comming from a guy who has never dealt with it. But, I'm a big believer in the 'stress' thing.

thoughts,

Steve

[john f]

Steve,
The comment "never had it myself, juuuust lucky I guess" is what put me on the defensive. In fact this whole thread has me on the defensive. Sorry to jump ugly on you.
I feel as though because I disagree with Terry on a couple points, my overall Reef/fish keeping ability has been questioned. As you can see from my tank specs and stocking list I do have some idea about how to do this reef thing right.

You are correct and I already know that aggression has caused my Ich problems. Can't remove the ocellaris from this tank though. Had them for over 10 years. The tomato has got to go. I have a slurp gun on order from the local dive shop and I am hoping to catch him with it.
The tang has actually mellowed somewhat over the years and I think with the tomato gone I may have better luck than in the past.
It's just when you get an Ich outbreak people tend to say "Oh, you must have poor water conditions, or you must not quarantine your fish, or maybe (as Terry implied) you don't even know what Ich(crypto) is"
I resent that as I know very well all of these things and can still get Ich outbreaks in this tank.

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Steve Richardson]

No problem... and yes - I probably am 'juuuuuust lucky', but it works for me.

Slurp gun might do the trick. Perhaps start feeding more often by hand at the surface... get the rascal used to eating from your hand.

I've trained mine this way... so if she ever gets to be a real problem, it might be easy to net her. (The ol' 'bait and switch tactic muahahaha! )

Understand you though... I've had her for 2 years, so unless things got really bad - I couldnt just give it away.

good luck with it,

-S

[Purple Tang]

I had trouble interducing a Flame Angel to my Tank. I had a Coral Beauty in there which is about .5 inches better.
It chased the Flame Angel vilantly around the Tank, so I knew this couldn't continue.
He was even injuring himself from hitting rocks.
I spent 2 hours tring to caught the Coral Beauty, ended up removing my rock etc.
Put him in another tank for a week.
switch my rock all around.
The Flame Angel was doing pretty good.
Then I put the Coral back in the tank.
The Coral only shows minor signs of aggression know, he pretty much leave the Flame Angel alone Know.