Poison warning: serious stuff, venom, toxins. Hospital stuff. [pix of items]

[shred5]

Was was busting some bubble algae in the middle of some paly's and it messed me up for a while.. took me a while to figure it out.

I had a Gigantea anemone once that while it was in the store stung a girl and she ended up in the hospital and almost died.

[matt_97055]

I have been squirted in the face by a rose bubble tip before and it put me on the couch for about 10hrs. My eyes burned like nothing I have never felt before. I didn't know that they could do that. It was a very painful learning experience. I handle them completely different now.

[RGS2]

Originally Posted by nitro4kthompson

I have had an allergic reaction to brushing my arm against one of my maxi-mini carpet anemones during a water change. I did know I needed to be careful around them, but I didn't realize I would require an ER trip for wheezing,swelling, and pain. I had to move the rocks with the nems to a spot in the back of the tank so I will not be likely to make that mistake again. I can't bear to get rid of them because they are so beautiful.

I too have been "grabbed" by a maxi mini and had swelling, redness, etc. Fortunately didn't require ER.

In January, my tube anemone wrapped several tentacles around my pinky finger. Still today it is bruised/purple a little.

[tkeracer619]

I spent 20 or so hours in the ER from Palytoxin. Do not tread lightly here.

While some people have different sensitivities to some of the toxins in tanks know that palytoxin is not one of those. It is a neurotoxin and will kill you if exposed to enough of it through phyiscal contact, ingestion, or inhalation from steam transport.

Regardless of how you feel if you suspect you have been exposed to palytoxin go to the ER and insist they contact poison control. The longest time from exposure to death on the books is 18 hours from sudden heart failure. You NEED to be at the hospital. Even if they have no experience with it (they likely don't) poison control will.

My ER didn't have experience with it, there was an active line to poison control for 18 hours.

I'm not even going to touch your tank if it has palys.

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

I spent 20 or so hours in the ER from Palytoxin. Do not tread lightly here.

While some people have different sensitivities to some of the toxins in tanks know that palytoxin is not one of those. It is a neurotoxin and will kill you if exposed to enough of it through phyiscal contact, ingestion, or inhalation from steam transport.

Regardless of how you feel if you suspect you have been exposed to palytoxin go to the ER and insist they contact poison control. The longest time from exposure to death on the books is 18 hours from sudden heart failure. You NEED to be at the hospital. Even if they have no experience with it (they likely don't) poison control will.

My ER didn't have experience with it, there was an active line to poison control for 18 hours.

I'm not even going to touch your tank if it has palys.

My experience with Palytoxin and the hospital stay was 60 hours. I remember telling the EMT what I believed I had. He goggled it, look at me and said "Holy s***, it says it is the second deadliest marine reef toxin". After the ER doctor got done talking with Poison Control, and asked. "oK, if this is going to kill me, how will I die?" Answer - organ failure, heart, kidney, liver. Next question, What can be done. Answer, nothing observe and treat what starts to go wrong. With me it was respiratory failure and steroid treatments which I will be taking for the rest of my life. Sure I am 70, and did have asthma before this happened , but it did do significant and irreparable damage to my lungs. The lung damage may have occurred because my method of contact was inhalation.


Zoas are dangerous things and they will never see the inside of my tank either.

[tkeracer619]

That is terrible Gary, I am sorry for the damage that happened. I too inhaled it with steam. I think if you make it past the initial time frame that was laid out to me the symptoms seem to be treatable with modern medicine, which IS the only thing they can do anyways, treat the symptoms. That said I know the process is not easy and the hospital stay can last a long time. I think Tommy was in the ER for 2 to 3 weeks .

We are lucky.

[JRR1285]

I always wear gloves in my tank now. I used to never have a reaction to anything. One day during the move to our new house I became short of breath and had what felt like flu symptoms towards the end of the move. We finished up and I ate what I could of dinner and went to bed. I felt like death for the better part of a day and a half. Figured it was just a quick bug/illness, basically no big deal.

It happened again a week or so later after moving some rocks around bare handed. Have not put my hands in the tank again without shoulder length gloves. Yeah they suck to wear and remove your dexterity but is it worth your health? At the very least I will wear nitrile gloves if I am doing something that required precision.

[Sk8r]

CDC Statement:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...cid=mm6431a4_e

[Hitch08]

Can all zoa's cause this? Anything else?

[liverock]

Originally Posted by Hitch08

Can all zoa's cause this? Anything else?

Yup...shellfish

Took the boat over to Grand Bahama last june....with the other 1/2....

she enjoyed the beach and sun/pool/food.

In the marina there was a 'conch shack'. Fried conch..raw conch...conch fritters....you name I conched out everyday. About day 7 I started to get a heat rash under my arms....ok...been fishing everyday...that happens.

Couple of days later...rash down both sides of my torso...next day rash all over...and small bubble like blisters ...and itching like I have never itched before.

Next day..face puffed up eyes almost closed looked like the Hulk.

Day later...could not take it anymore, went to the Local Bahamian doctor....he gave me some cream...great...

Two days later heading across the gulf stream and my body was on fire and the itching was beyond control. Got to the dock and hit a CVS for some desitin as it was not available on the island. Six hour ride home in the truck...on fire. Cream did nothing. Couple more days...getting worse...doctor time...I know what I had...but I have been eating shellfish and a lot of it all my life...shrimp/lobster/clams/scallops/CONCH.....

Turns out that in june/july in the Bahamas especially on grand cayman.. the conch build up a heavy dose of toxin...especially the big ones I was catching/eating....raw..

Doc said...you just turned from a surf and turf kind of guy to a turf guy.

Steroids...lots...injections...creams...slowly dissipated.

So a month ago I got the urge again, broke out some lobster tails and shrimp from the freezer...on the grill..

Next morning....puff the magic dragon again..pace all puffed up...eyes almost closed...

So...I have capitulated to the 62 year old body, gave all my shellfish in the freezer to the neighbor and from now on it is porterhouses...shellfish, unfortunately is out of my life and that stinks

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

[Hitch08]

Wow! That's some really scary stuff.

[Sk8r]

There's a difference between an allergen, and a food sensitivity, and a toxin. All of them can kill you, but they operate a little different medically as I understand. Poor comfort for the person who gets hit by them.

Palytoxin is a true toxin, ie, a poison.

I kept palys for years with no issues, before this was generally known, but then again I was very careful not to crush or wound the specimens, which is generally where you get into trouble, through splashes into the eyes, etc. But most softies will exude 'discouraging' chemicals when annoyed by another coral or a nippy fish, and I would suspect that these in the case of palys are not nice.

Wear gloves and rubberband them to your wrist if you have sores or hangnails, wear a pair of low-power reading glasses or the like when working with the tank, especially while fragging, wash your hands, don't mouth-start a siphon with angry palys in the tank, run carbon, and don't leave tank discard water sitting about. I don't have the knowledge to say it will prevent all problems, but they are precautions to take.

MANY marine organisms have chemical defenses, including some fish, and you should not take a sting, even from a bristleworm, as something you can tolerate forever with impunity, no matter if you have no other allergies or sensitivities. The more often stung or affected, the more extreme an allergic or sensitivity reaction may become over time.

And a toxin is toxic (poisonous) the very first time it gets into your system. As I understand it (IANAD---or biologist) the question then is the size of the dose.

[liverock]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

There's a difference between an allergen, and a food sensitivity, and a toxin. All of them can kill you, but they operate a little different medically as I understand. Poor comfort for the person who gets hit by them.

Palytoxin is a true toxin, ie, a poison.

I kept palys for years with no issues, before this was generally known, but then again I was very careful not to crush or wound the specimens, which is generally where you get into trouble, through splashes into the eyes, etc. But most softies will exude 'discouraging' chemicals when annoyed by another coral or a nippy fish, and I would suspect that these in the case of palys are not nice.

Wear gloves and rubberband them to your wrist if you have sores or hangnails, wear a pair of low-power reading glasses or the like when working with the tank, especially while fragging, wash your hands, don't mouth-start a siphon with angry palys in the tank, run carbon, and don't leave tank discard water sitting about. I don't have the knowledge to say it will prevent all problems, but they are precautions to take.

MANY marine organisms have chemical defenses, including some fish, and you should not take a sting, even from a bristleworm, as something you can tolerate forever with impunity, no matter if you have no other allergies or sensitivities. The more often stung or affected, the more extreme an allergic or sensitivity reaction may become over time.

And a toxin is toxic (poisonous) the very first time it gets into your system. As I understand it (IANAD---or biologist) the question then is the size of the dose.

So being I totally OD' on something here...they symptoms described do not match what I had

http://www.foodsmart.govt.nz/elibrar..._shellfish.htm

any ideas?
a scientific name....lol...ate too much conch, dummy

[Swensos]

Maybe we could save up for a high performance liquid chromatographer to detect palytoxin and distinguish between zoanthids and palythoas... here's a study on some samples found in the aquarium trade, noting the difficulty in visual identification.

"During this investigation, we found that many of the zoanthids commonly sold in the home aquarium trade are non-toxic or weakly-toxic, but a highly toxic variety of Palythoa (possibly P. heliodiscus or P. toxica) is indeed available. It often occurs as a tank contaminant and can be unintentionally introduced with more desirable species or on live rock."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...ne.0018235.PDF

[Sk8r]

Palythoa heliodiscus: a photo of one of the more toxic types.
http://www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2676

I cannot find a useable photo of palythoa toxica, but it seems to be another of the large polyp palys, looking similar to heliodiscus. I suggest you carefully copy the Latin names (always the most accurate) and look them up: familiarize yourself with them. Most zoas are mild, and collectors probably don't like to mess with these toxic types any more often than we do---but they can get included in with others, especially when small.

Unfortunately many zoa reefers are young folk, and may not have the background yet to read the science articles, but this is an area of the hobby where good handling practices are required.

As stated above, many marine species have defenses, and repeated exposure can make them into a hobby-ending problem. Gloves and glasses are such an easy precaution.
A few marine organisms have serious toxin, and toxin can be a life-altering if not life-ending problem. It's like keeping various sorts of animals: know what you're handling, and take appropriate precautions.

I would (my own opinion) urge anybody who thinks they do have one of the seriously toxic types, which they have identified, to remove it, dispose of it in a safe way, as you would dispose of an unwanted box of poison, and please not to trade it on. Our hobby has many safe ones. Let's not proliferate this problem.

[hkgar]

Yup this is the one that got me:

http://www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2681

[Panta rhei]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medi...you/ar-BBlJXZ7

[JamesHolt]

The one in the picture below, top rock on left side, If I touch it my hand goes numb, I wear gloves around it now..

[moneymm]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

3. repeated exposure of human skin to water in which corals are carrying on chemical warfare can sensitize an individual to reef water---so badly that they will ever after break out in a rash as a consequence of touching such water. This has happened to two lfs owners that I know. Wear gloves.

so once I add corals to my tank i always need to wear gloves when touching the water?

when handling corals, i need to wear goggles?

[Sk8r]

Ideally, yes. It also depends on type of coral, and your tendency to put your hands into the tank for every minor thing (don't!) and on a variety of circumstances including possibly your own body---although there is a profound difference between a sensitivity (which some reefers do get in repeated exposure!) and a toxin (an outright poison which will affect every person thus exposed). Many corals exude chemicals to which we can become sensitized. TWO or at least a few species of palythoas (palys) which closely resemble zoanthids (zoas) ---aka buttons---are highly TOXIC, ie, poisonous. If you work with palys, you should avoid palythoa heliodiscus and palythoa toxica---the two species this thread has uncovered (read the whole thread!!!! including the pix) that are the prime problems. There may be others. Look at the pix. See if you have one of these two types. If you do, I would, frankly, get rid of them, by some same means of disposal that does not involve exposing your eyes, nose, hands, or breathing fumes or getting splashed with the liquid.

As to the advisability of goggles---while fragging anything, especially with a dremel, yes! living coral in the eyes is not good. Wear glasses or goggles. If handling corals, even gentle hammer---yes, wear gloves. If you are going to be (as lfs owners are) dipping your hands into your tank multiple times a day---exposure even to the water in that frequency is not good: wear gloves.

The best gloves for sensitive operations are nitrile exam gloves, your local pharmacy, even grocery. If you have a wound or hangnail, rubberband the wrist of that hand so it stays dry while you work.

When pipetting or starting a siphon, use methods other than mouth for suction, especially if you have zoa-types in the tank.

These are basic precautions that can keep you happy and healthy in the hobby, and your corals will also be happier --- they have tiny stinging cells that get ripped from their tissue by our finger-ridges and pores, and they're much happier not having to 'heal up' after a human has fingered them bare-handed.

[kelp47]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

CDC Statement:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...cid=mm6431a4_e

From this article: "Throughout the Mediterranean region, palytoxin exposure has been linked to fever, conjunctivitis, and respiratory symptoms in persons exposed to marine aerosols during proliferations of palytoxin and palytoxin-like compound–producing marine algae (i.e., algal blooms) (5), but detailed inhalation studies in animal models are lacking."

So am I reading this correctly that certain algae can produce palytoxin-like toxins? Does anyone know what kind of algae, and if there are any typically found in a home aquarium?

Also, the article describes "marine aerosols" as being produced by scrubbing or placing the coral in hot water. So if you don't do these things, are the toxins confined to your tank water? I can take precautions to protect myself when working in my aquarium, but I want to be sure I don't have any kind of toxins getting into the air to affect others in my household. I actually don't have any zoas or palys in my tank (and don't plan to), but I still want to take the best precautions against any other corals that may release toxic chemicals.

[Sk8r]

I have no idea, but caulerpa weed, which is a pest in the Mediterranean thanks to an escape, is certainly too toxic for many fish.

Main thing is, re family safety, dispose safely, be clean and orderly with disposals, wash nets and tools and store, and put locks on all your sump and storage cabinets if you have inquisitive kids: marine toxins aren't all they can get into.

[liverock]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I have no idea, but caulerpa weed, which is a pest in the Mediterranean thanks to an escape, is certainly too toxic for many fish.

Main thing is, re family safety, dispose safely, be clean and orderly with disposals, wash nets and tools and store, and put locks on all your sump and storage cabinets if you have inquisitive kids: marine toxins aren't all they can get into.

Saw Andrew Zimmerman munching caulepra on a show this week....

[TattedUpFishGuy]

Thanks for the info, very informative!

[Cammunoz]

good thread