ICH: how to cure it, id it, understand it.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Musbtr1pin

False! Cleaner Shrimp do absolutely NOTHING for ICH, and anything that is "Reef Safe" for treating ICH, is a waste of your money and time. QUARANTINE QUARANTINE QUARANTINE!!!!!!!!

Cleaner shrimp or cleaner wrasses provide no value for parasite control (ich or others). Quarantine for sure.

[Rosscopeco]

Originally Posted by Musbtr1pin

I made the mistake of not QT' my Hippo tang, and the transportation process obviously stressed the hell outta him. Soon after he developed ich. My QT water and my DT water are the same in every way. If theres a problem after transport in the QT, big deal, its isolated. Praying your fish dont get a disease, and if for some reason they do in your tank, how do you treat? it's impossible to treat in your DT tank! you just let your fish go about their business?

To answer your question. Yes, I just let my fish go about their business.

Again, I'm not telling anyone they should not quarantine.

My point is that there are gaps in many of the quarantine procedures.
How do you know that your Hippo tang didn't catch Ich from your DT?
How do you know that any fish is disease free after 8 weeks in quarantine?

[marc nichols]

% years ago when I acquired Hot Lips, our powder brown tang, she came with ick. I removed all but one fish from the display and did the quarantine thing for double the required time. In the mean time I tried to catch/kill starve the holdout with no success. So, back went Hot Lips and the other inmates. Back came the ick.

So, did the holistic thing with vitamins, garlic and the best feed plan I could devise. That worked! In 5 years, have not lost a fish or seen any sign of ick.

[T Diddy]

Originally Posted by snorvich

A fresh water dip is useful (although not curative) for oodinium. It has no effect on cryptocaryon irritans.

Originally Posted by chessnutt

Freshwater dip does nothing but to stress it more. Give it plenty of hiding space. I got an Achilles three weeks ago and it had ich. Less stress fast recovery. Avoid sticking your hands in the tank. I dont quarantine. I just feed them more often. Seems like any new fish I add to the tank it will have ich but the other fish shows no signs of ich. Cleaner shrimp also helps.

A fresh water dip most certainly does help to keep a fish alive for longer than not doing so. I have done this experiment, and the control group ended up dead...

Dips won't cure the disease, but it does treat the symptoms.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by T Diddy

A fresh water dip most certainly does help to keep a fish alive for longer than not doing so. .

Sorry, that simply is not true. There is a difference in how deep the parasites embed with cryptocaryon irritans compared to oodinium which embeds much shallower.

[T Diddy]

Thanks snorvich, but I'm not referring to oodynium. You are correct in that fresh water dips will not affect deeply embedded "ich". Fresh water will cause osmotic shock and lysis of the protists not within the submucosal layer of the host, potentially (and matter of factly) extending the life of the host. As I said, I've done this experiment.

[battousai622]

Thanks. This article was very helpful.

[ryanuuy]

I dont think my display has any ich as well. I had a major outbreak so caught every single fish there and put them all through a 2 month QT and when i added them back, no more problems. I treated the QT with quinine sulfate in conjunction with hypo.

This is my question though! I wanna add a few coral frags to my tank from my friends tank. His tank im sure has ich and by extension im sure his water is carryng the parasite. Right now i have 4 zoa frags that are in my coral QT(fishless), how long do you think i should wait before i add them to the main? Should it really be the whole 1-2 month period?

Thanks!

[montrosereef]

spent lots of money on fish medication, none really works. prevention is important. I does garlic extreme when i see my fish flips around the object. It works very well.

[3rdimension]

Originally Posted by mess7777

It is mentioned plenty in the link provided above You cannot perform this in a regular reef tank, fish can handle it but many other organisms will die from this low salinity. Read up and be careful.

What if you have a FOWArtificialReef tank like mine? No live rock, all rock, plants, reef are artificial. Then I'd assume it would be ok to do this in a desperate scenario and didn't have a QT setup. I really see the importance of having a QT even with a setup like mine, so you don't have to put other fish through unnecessary stress with hypo-salinity. But if worse came to worse, I believe it would be the better solution than transferring them over to a smaller QT stressing them out even more in smaller confinement. Even if the ich shows predominantly present in just one or two of the fish, and just those fish are placed in the QT, ich will still be thriving in the main tank in the sand and then host on any fish left in the main tank. Therefore, I feel the more humane and easier treatment for my FOWAR tank is to use the hypo-salinity method. It sounds like the best solution especially with a fully stocked tank.

[sandcounty]

So here's a stupid question.

What exactly are cleaner shrimp and wrasses cleaning at their stations?

I've been told parasites in addition to stuck food bits, dead flesh, etc.

No?

[Paul B]

What exactly are cleaner shrimp and wrasses cleaning at their stations?

Paracites that are much larger than ich and dead skin. Even if a shrimp ate a few paracites, there are tens of thousands of them so the shrimp will be ineffective.
Shrimp and cleaner fish are totally useless at curing ich but if you like cheaner shrimp and fish, then buy them. I have them in my tank because I like them but I know they will do nothing for ich.
You can quarantine or not quarantine, that is up to you but your fish should be in a state of health where they are not bothered by ich.
Fish in a new system wil never be in great health no mater what they look like so in those systems it is better to quarantine. As the system ages, after a few years the fish should be in breeding condition and they will not succumb from ich.
I personally have not had a quarantine or hospital tank in probably 25 years and I have no problems from ich or anything else. I buy fish from all different places and even collect some myself along with seawater, seaweeeds and rocks.
The key is food and stress.
If you don't believe any of that, then quarantine everything. You will need to.

[madasmick]

The good old ich/white spot debate
Im by no stretch of the imagination a expert on this but have run in to the ich problem a few times and spent many hours researching how to get rid of it if your tank is like mine catching fish is no easy task and you only get to catch a fish when its very unwell form what iv found through research and talking to many people is that you can never get rid of it completely some fish are more prone then others and yes the old debate that only stressed of unwell fish will get ich or white spot i have noted myself in my tank that it seems only if the power has gone out for some time or something has gone wrong with a pump chiller heater and stressed fish or adding a new fish do i ever get ich i now have a backup generator if the power goes out and whenever i get any new fish i ask the shop to dose with stress guard and i no longer float fish but put them in a bucket and use a air line to siphon tank water to the bucket and then add stress guard also the bucket seems to not stress out a new fish as much as floating the bag in your tank fish don’t normally swim at the top of the water as this is where something will eat it and in a bag your new fish can see the tank and other fish and can’t get to the tank i have used medic by polyp lab seems the only treatment that is 100% reef safe but needs dosing every 12 hours also UV and ozone will help to control it before it attaches to your fish if anyone out there has more experience or success in treating or getting rid of the ich/white spot let me know

[Fat Man]

mad as mick, I can't read that without punctuation. It makes my brain hurt.

[returnofsid]

Originally Posted by madasmick

The good old ich/white spot debate
Im by no stretch of the imagination a expert on this but have run in to the ich problem a few times and spent many hours researching how to get rid of it if your tank is like mine catching fish is no easy task and you only get to catch a fish when its very unwell form what iv found through research and talking to many people is that you can never get rid of it completely some fish are more prone then others and yes the old debate that only stressed of unwell fish will get ich or white spot i have noted myself in my tank that it seems only if the power has gone out for some time or something has gone wrong with a pump chiller heater and stressed fish or adding a new fish do i ever get ich i now have a backup generator if the power goes out and whenever i get any new fish i ask the shop to dose with stress guard and i no longer float fish but put them in a bucket and use a air line to siphon tank water to the bucket and then add stress guard also the bucket seems to not stress out a new fish as much as floating the bag in your tank fish don’t normally swim at the top of the water as this is where something will eat it and in a bag your new fish can see the tank and other fish and can’t get to the tank i have used medic by polyp lab seems the only treatment that is 100% reef safe but needs dosing every 12 hours also UV and ozone will help to control it before it attaches to your fish if anyone out there has more experience or success in treating or getting rid of the ich/white spot let me know

BWAAAAA!?

I know your Shift Key works, because you actually capitalized UV. Your lack of punctuation, sentence structure, etc. makes your post completely unreadable.

[antbreon]

way to welcome a newbie on board...he may have a slight language barrier as well ..he is form Australia

[T Diddy]

Originally Posted by ludiNano

This only works for Canadian's.

[madasmick]

My lack of punctuation may have made it hard to read.
Considering I had just finished a 39 hour shift of work its lucky the whole thing wasn’t a jumbled mass of words.

[jrdonnellyjr]

Originally Posted by Fat Man

mad as mick, I can't read that without punctuation. It makes my brain hurt.

Originally Posted by returnofsid

BWAAAAA!?

I know your Shift Key works, because you actually capitalized UV. Your lack of punctuation, sentence structure, etc. makes your post completely unreadable.

nit pit mfers.

[Paul B]

My lack of punctuation may have made it hard to read.
Considering I had just finished a 39 hour shift of work its lucky the whole thing wasn’t a jumbled mass of words.

I had no problem reading it, I just stayed up for 39 hours watching re runs of Seinfield before I read it. Seemed fine to me.

[IridescentLily]

Because i'm obessive compulsive, anal retentive, an editor, and a nerd...

Originally Posted by madasmick

The good old ich/white spot debate.
I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert on this but have run in to (into) the ich problem a few times, and have spent many hours researching how to get rid of it. If your tank is like mine, catching fish is no easy task and you only get to catch a fish when it's very unwell.
From what i've found through research, and talking to many people, is that you can never get rid of it (ich) completely. Some fish are more prone then others, and yes the old debate that only stressed or unwell fish will get ich or white spot...
I have noted myself, in my tank that it seems only if the power has gone out for some time or some other mechanical failure has occured, and the fish are already stressed out, i do expect ich.
I now have a backup generator, if the power goes out.
Additonally, whenever i get any new fish i ask the shop to dose with 'stress guard'. Also, i no longer float fish in their bag in the tank but instead put them in a bucket and use an air line to siphon tank water to the bucket, then i add stress guard into the bucket.
The bucket seems to not stress out a new fish as much as floating the bag in your tank.
Fish don’t normally swim at the top of the water as this is where something might eat it. In a bag your new fish can see the tank and other fish, yet can’t get to (hide) the tank. i
I have used 'medic' by polyp lab because it seems to be the only treatment that is 100% reef safe, but it does require dosing every 12 hours. Also UV and ozone will help to control it (ich) before it attaches to your fish. If anyone out there has more experience or success in treating or getting rid of the ich/white spot please let me know

[Rosscopeco]

Top work Iridescentlily.
Being someone who spent more time and effort trying it on with girls ( including a brief forced stint of drama class with Rose Byrne during high school, whom I'm sure you all know is quite hot), instead of paying attention in english classes, I can completeley understand where Madasmick is coming from. Many of us actually had to get jobs to pay the rent and put food on the table around the same time we figured out we needed further education. You can guess which one wins out of the two.
It doesn't make you stupid, just ignorant. Ignorance is easily fixed.
The fact that he's a bannana bender is irreperable.
(Purely mucking around madasmick. please don't take offence as it's not intended).

Getting back to the ich!
Most of the time when people think they've beaten ich with good diet, impecable water and less stress in the tank, it's usually down to built up immunity, or a lack of visible symptoms. There are many studies and subsequent papers written on these different aspects of the parasite.
The studies go something like this. Good conditions ( for the fish), promote a natural immunity. Adding a new fish with ich( even if it's just one on the gills) will begin the whole immunity battle again.
Most fish do not show visible symptoms of infection. Not unless you take a gill cutting and observe it under the microscope.
Nurse. Get me a scalpel, STAT.
Ever notice how the fish with smooth skin are ich magnets? That's to do with the available area for the parasite to burrow in. Scales are much better at stopping ich for obvious reasons.
If you keep ich out of your tank in the first place it will be impossible for it to spontaneously appear.
My problem with this is that the QT proccess does not always guarantee success.
IMO dipping ( or continuous medication) is entirely necessary to for the QT method to be 99.99%. There is plenty of info out there on what will kill ich for certain but, unfortunately, many of these treatments seriously hurt the fish.
I have experimented with the hydrogen peroxide dips and found them to be extremely effective at removing even deeply embedded cysts. No gill cuttings here but the obvious guess is if the deep craters are sorted, the gills are pristine. That and the fact that the fish showed immediate improvement and minor discomfort throughout the treatment.
Copper is out in my books.
At the end of the day I choose not to quarantine because I dont' like the current treatments available and my tank is working towards four years and two incarnations. Ich is in there and it aint coming out unless I start again or find a suitable dipping proceedure.

PS.Please feel free to edit my puntuation or spelling. Proper english of course.
Also feel free to dissagree with my opinion and let me know why. It is a disscussion board after all.

[mmmm4life]

Hey all new to the coral tank world for myself. Brother has been doing it for years and has it down but I have a question for anyone able to answer. I have only had my tank up and going for about a month or so, and have extremely well cured live rock that was intrduced to my tank but have what seems to me green coralline algea growth but its very rapidly growing along with the purple. I just want to know if there is a possible bad green item that this could be. I have been useing B-Ionic chem. daily and have heard that this stuff may make the coralline algea growth be this rapid. Any input is good input. Thanks

[Rosscopeco]

G'day Mate.
This is a thread on Ich. Probably not the best place to ask the question but I'll try anyway to save you some time. I hope no one else minds the sidetrack.
The green covering is cyano bacteria or" blue green algae" of the matting variety and is quite ok. Do a search for more detailed info.
It's a sign of the cycle taking place in your tank.
The cyano will out compete almost anything when it comes to nutrients in the water or rock, although over time (with low nutrient levels) the coralline will become the pest.
Welcome to the hobby.

[Michael cicco]

most of the time if you do simple water changes it should help the problem