I got a clam! woohoo! - Page 2

TWallace · 01/22/2007, 10:16 PM

If you're replying to me, I think you're confusing me with someone else. I'm not the one who said T5 has higher PAR than MH, although I have read that in a few other places.

AndyB4784 · 01/22/2007, 10:31 PM

sorry not to you read up in the post where i asked for an article of comparison between t5 and MH. I just got sidetracked while reading the post and took a few min to type my response.

flinster · 01/22/2007, 11:22 PM

I have 6 5 T5 over and 90 and have any SPS you can imagine as well as 4 clams, both max and croceas. The lights are so bright that I can't keep several softies.

edwing206 · 01/23/2007, 12:45 AM

it can be done, look at twallace's avatar and then look at his sig. his clam looks very healthy and he has 4x54 t5 watts, same as cyclops23.
and andyb4784 i'm pretty sure that twallace's clam is a crocea or a maxima because squamosas and derasas don't come in that bright of colors from what i have seen.
twallace where do you get you LFS do you go to? i live just north of seattle. thanks

spleen93 · 01/23/2007, 01:51 AM

A post by Hahnmeister in the Lighting forum:

"Yeah, I would consider 6x54wattT5s over halides. I used to like halide only systems, using 14,0000-20,000K bulbs rather than warmer bulbs with suppliments. I thought it made economic sense to minimize the variety of light sources. Well, thats sort of true, but with a halide only setup, you are stuck with one bulb, and if you want to change, the results may vary too much.

With T5s, I am finding the output to be very competitive, and the fact that you can mix and match 6 different bulbs to get just the right spectrum... and tweak it as you go along, to be very useful. Need slightly more red/pink/yellow? Replace an aquablue with a 6500K or 3000K. Need more blue? Replace an aquablue with a blue+ bulb. You just cant do that with halides. Also, the coverage seems to benefit the corals more. With halides, it seems that the corals need the corals need so much more output because the source provides such limited coverage over the coral's surface... leaving many pale and faded out spots within the branches or between the lobes. With T5s, Im seeing more intense coloration than even my 20,000Ks were giving, and similar PAR levels. I can grow most SPS on the bottom and they color in better than the corals I have up high in the halide lit tank.

FWIW, I think dual halides might be too much light for a 75g, and too concentrated to be as useful as a more spread out source. On identical 40B tanks, I run two of them with HQI/250wattDE pendants, and one with 6x39wattT5s. The 6x39wattT5 system is giving me better results. The light field on the halide is very intense at the top of the 40B, just in the center, like a spotlight... but these PAR levels of 500-700 are just too much for most corals. So then you move away, to the bottom where the PAR levels are in the 200 range, and corals love it. The bottom corners of the tank are in the sub 100 range though, so I can barely grow anything there. The upper corners of the tank are also dim, as the light isnt very spread out. Overall, I find it very hard to get good coral placement, esp with larger colonies where the top might be in a light zone that is too high, and the bottom is in a zone that is too dim... the tips are faded out, and the bases are bleaching out. With the T5 system, I can put corals that need more light (only a PAR of about 400 seems to be plenty though for even the most light demanding corals) anywhere across the top that I want and they are happy. I can put them anywhere across the bottom if they are lower light, and they will get light levels in the 150-200 range.

My next tank might have a single halide on a light-mover or something, but for the most part, its going to be T5s. Im really happy with the results... for a mere 250-270 watts of T5 light Im getting more useful light levels across the entire tank compared to a 250wattDE that sucks 320 watts and doesnt even seem to color in the corals as well."

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1021444

FWIW, I run 2x250 watt MHs but for my next tank, seriously looking at T5s.

Spleen

nikonosis · 01/23/2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbittner
4 t5 would absolutely demolish a 250 watt mh on a 55 gal tank.

SHOW ME SOME PAR NUMBERS WITH 4 T5'S DEMOLISHING A 250W HALIDE!

Amphiprion · 01/23/2007, 01:00 PM

4 54w T5 fluorescents should be enough for all common species of clams. They will live, grow, and 'thrive' (which is extremely subjective--what constitutes it? Fast growth? Reproduction? Long term keeping? If so, than several other lighting systems have been capable of this)..

There should be a relatively convincing study out soon, but I am not one to speculate results. Either way, the results will be interesting.

jbittner · 01/23/2007, 01:05 PM

Everyone loves to throw around "par numbers" like they are the end all for a reef tank (light spectrum and water quality are just as important). We have no idea the PAR values from which our aquarium inhabitants come from. Not to mention we cannot perfectly duplicate these conditions using any light source. What I can tell you is under MH I was seeing less growth, less coloration and overall my tank appeared to thrive less than it does with T5. I have had 2 250 wt MH on my 55 and I loved the light but hated the cost ($400 per year in bulbs), the way my corals looked and I had to keep the room temp down to make up for the amazing amount of heat. T5 works for me, my sps, my clams (on the bottom), my lps and my softies.

nikonosis · 01/23/2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbittner
Everyone loves to throw around "par numbers" like they are the end all for a reef tank (light spectrum and water quality are just as important). We have no idea the PAR values from which our aquarium inhabitants come from. Not to mention we cannot perfectly duplicate these conditions using any light source. What I can tell you is under MH I was seeing less growth, less coloration and overall my tank appeared to thrive less than it does with T5. I have had 2 250 wt MH on my 55 and I loved the light but hated the cost ($400 per year in bulbs), the way my corals looked and I had to keep the room temp down to make up for the amazing amount of heat. T5 works for me, my sps, my clams (on the bottom), my lps and my softies.

hahahaha, how in the hell were you spending $400/year on bulbs for 2 250w halides?

Icefire · 01/23/2007, 01:09 PM

MH halide give 30-60 lumens/Watts (60 being some 3000K bulb) while T5 give 100 lumens/Watts.

If you add parabolic reflector, you get even higher.

I looked google and found no PAR reading done on T5HO.

Amphiprion · 01/23/2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Icefire
MH halide give 30-60 lumens/Watts (60 being some 3000K bulb) while T5 give 100 lumens/Watts.

If you add parabolic reflector, you get even higher.

I looked google and found no PAR reading done on T5HO.

100% true. You will not find anything on google because there aren't really that many, none of them done in a more scientific sense. Sanjay Joshi should be working on this now and will give the results after the study is done. The Grim Reefer has done a lot of great work, but under more variable situations. Sanjay should be able to give more accurate, consistent results that can give everyone a good idea of the comparison between the two.

Now, will a T5 setup beat a higher PAR bulb in a good reflector on a magnetic ballast--probably not. An example (to show that wattage doesn't even count) is the Iwasaki 175w 15000K bulb. It puts out a tremendous amount of light, beating out, so to speak, T5s and quite a few supposedly bright 250 w lamps.

Icefire · 01/23/2007, 01:31 PM

All T5HO have electronic ballast not magnetic. You can also overdrive the lamps.

Ge Daylight bulb should give some good PAR I guess.

piscivorous · 01/23/2007, 01:39 PM

This is why I got two electronic ballasts and two 175 Watt MH bulbs for my 55.....I ultimately intend to keep clams, and didn't want to run into a debate like this when it came time to posting about my clams. Good luck with the maxima. Keep an eye on it....keep a stict eye on your water parameters....and I'd probably try to keep it rather high in the tank...but I am not familiar with T5s....so I won't go there. Just be very in tune with the condition of the clam on a daily basis and good luck

jbittner · 01/23/2007, 01:40 PM

2x 12000k Mh halide bulb $74.95
2x t5 actinics $22.95
Thats $195.80 every six months.
With shipping thats atleast $400 per year from Reefgeek.

Rhodesholar · 01/23/2007, 02:24 PM

Here's a little explanation on T5 vs MH. I will look for more.

http://www.specialty-lights.com/aqua...faq-intro.html

http://www.specialty-lights.com/aqua...ghts-faq3.html

nikonosis · 01/23/2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbittner
2x 12000k Mh halide bulb $74.95
2x t5 actinics $22.95
Thats $195.80 every six months.
With shipping thats atleast $400 per year from Reefgeek.

Thats not really fair counting t5 actinics in there considering you don't have to run them and THEY AREN'T HALIDES!

jbittner · 01/23/2007, 03:30 PM

OK $320 but i still have to buy the actinics for both systems.

ReefWreak · 01/23/2007, 03:42 PM

STOP TURNING OTHER PEOPLES THREADS INTO A HALIDE VS. T5 DEBATE! YOU CAN RUN A REEF WITH EITHER. JUST **** AND GO DUKE IT OUT IN THE LIGHTING FORUM.

I'm just so tired of seeing people ALL the time fighting about this. it's ridiculous. Keep it out of other people's posts.

This guy just wants help with a clam in his tank. yes the discussion is related, but then link it, don't take over his thread with it.

Jeeze...

ralphie16 · 01/23/2007, 03:54 PM

alrighty then.....

....so...how's the clam?

dippin61 · 01/23/2007, 03:56 PM

well.. your not going to see par numbers on T5's until sanjay finishes up his T5 comparison thread over in the lighting section. so that is coming very soon.

as for bulb replacement cost... um 2x14k hammies = 80.00 .... so yeh, the price differences in halides and T5's are not that far off, unless your looking at very expensive bulbs.. helios, xm's, phoenix... so that point is moot, because some of the german T5's are just as much.

dippin61 · 01/23/2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReefWreak
STOP TURNING OTHER PEOPLES THREADS INTO A HALIDE VS. T5 DEBATE! YOU CAN RUN A REEF WITH EITHER. JUST **** AND GO DUKE IT OUT IN THE LIGHTING FORUM.

I'm just so tired of seeing people ALL the time fighting about this. it's ridiculous. Keep it out of other people's posts.

This guy just wants help with a clam in his tank. yes the discussion is related, but then link it, don't take over his thread with it.

Jeeze...

says the guy who chimes into the thread and gives 0 advice.

ReefWreak · 01/23/2007, 04:07 PM

I'd give advice, but I'm never sure of how my clam is doing in my tank with 2x250w 2 year old halides. He seems okay?

I would imagine that if you keep the clam high in the tank, it should be okay as long as most of your other parameters are in check. "If clams do not receive the proper light intensity and quality, they will lose their bright colors. This can happen very quickly. When clams lose their bright colors, the brown color of the zooxanthellae becomes visible. Unless conditions are improved immediately, the zooxanthellae may begin to disappear too, and the clam will take on a whitish-brown color. This condition is called bleaching and once this has occurred, death will follow. Improper lighting does not always cause bleaching. Bleached clams have been reported under intense metal halide lighting. This lighting is normally ideal, but the bleaching may still occur when iodine has been depleted."

from http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fish...99/fnc0799.htm

I put that so if you look for the signs, then you'll know whether your lighting is strong enough, before it's too late.

I apologize for the outburst, but like 1/4 of the threads on RC turn into a debate whether it be about skimmer brands or tank lighting. I'm just really tired of seeing it when people are just looking for help.

Amphiprion · 01/23/2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Icefire
All T5HO have electronic ballast not magnetic. You can also overdrive the lamps.

Ge Daylight bulb should give some good PAR I guess.

I never said they did--I was referring to MH in which magnetic ballasts usually drive the bulb a bit brighter.

TWallace · 01/23/2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edwing206
it can be done, look at twallace's avatar and then look at his sig. his clam looks very healthy and he has 4x54 t5 watts, same as cyclops23.
and andyb4784 i'm pretty sure that twallace's clam is a crocea or a maxima because squamosas and derasas don't come in that bright of colors from what i have seen.
twallace where do you get you LFS do you go to? i live just north of seattle. thanks

That clam is from Clams Direct, and to be fair, the pic was taken less than a week after purchase, last August. I can show a more recent pic of it if I remember tonight when I get home. Some of the green has faded to blue, but it's still beautiful. I got 3 clams from Clams Direct at the same time, 2 of them are still looking great, but one has bleached, but still looks healthy otherwise (nice extension side to side, not vertical). All have visible new growth on the shells.

TWallace · 01/23/2007, 09:01 PM

Pic taken tonight of the clam in my avatar:

This is a little over 6 months under T5 lighting. I know that's not long enough to make a final judgement, but so far so good.

01/23/2007, 12:45 AM	#29
edwing206 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Shoreline,Washington Posts: 4,518	it can be done, look at twallace's avatar and then look at his sig. his clam looks very healthy and he has 4x54 t5 watts, same as cyclops23. and andyb4784 i'm pretty sure that twallace's clam is a crocea or a maxima because squamosas and derasas don't come in that bright of colors from what i have seen. twallace where do you get you LFS do you go to? i live just north of seattle. thanks __________________ The name's Luis. :) Current Tank Info: 50G cube

01/23/2007, 01:51 AM	#30
spleen93 crabby hermit Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: somewhere at the end of the rainbow Posts: 1,363	A post by Hahnmeister in the Lighting forum: "Yeah, I would consider 6x54wattT5s over halides. I used to like halide only systems, using 14,0000-20,000K bulbs rather than warmer bulbs with suppliments. I thought it made economic sense to minimize the variety of light sources. Well, thats sort of true, but with a halide only setup, you are stuck with one bulb, and if you want to change, the results may vary too much. With T5s, I am finding the output to be very competitive, and the fact that you can mix and match 6 different bulbs to get just the right spectrum... and tweak it as you go along, to be very useful. Need slightly more red/pink/yellow? Replace an aquablue with a 6500K or 3000K. Need more blue? Replace an aquablue with a blue+ bulb. You just cant do that with halides. Also, the coverage seems to benefit the corals more. With halides, it seems that the corals need the corals need so much more output because the source provides such limited coverage over the coral's surface... leaving many pale and faded out spots within the branches or between the lobes. With T5s, Im seeing more intense coloration than even my 20,000Ks were giving, and similar PAR levels. I can grow most SPS on the bottom and they color in better than the corals I have up high in the halide lit tank. FWIW, I think dual halides might be too much light for a 75g, and too concentrated to be as useful as a more spread out source. On identical 40B tanks, I run two of them with HQI/250wattDE pendants, and one with 6x39wattT5s. The 6x39wattT5 system is giving me better results. The light field on the halide is very intense at the top of the 40B, just in the center, like a spotlight... but these PAR levels of 500-700 are just too much for most corals. So then you move away, to the bottom where the PAR levels are in the 200 range, and corals love it. The bottom corners of the tank are in the sub 100 range though, so I can barely grow anything there. The upper corners of the tank are also dim, as the light isnt very spread out. Overall, I find it very hard to get good coral placement, esp with larger colonies where the top might be in a light zone that is too high, and the bottom is in a zone that is too dim... the tips are faded out, and the bases are bleaching out. With the T5 system, I can put corals that need more light (only a PAR of about 400 seems to be plenty though for even the most light demanding corals) anywhere across the top that I want and they are happy. I can put them anywhere across the bottom if they are lower light, and they will get light levels in the 150-200 range. My next tank might have a single halide on a light-mover or something, but for the most part, its going to be T5s. Im really happy with the results... for a mere 250-270 watts of T5 light Im getting more useful light levels across the entire tank compared to a 250wattDE that sucks 320 watts and doesnt even seem to color in the corals as well." http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1021444 FWIW, I run 2x250 watt MHs but for my next tank, seriously looking at T5s. Spleen __________________ Spleen "Put that in your Mag Drive and smoke it." - jnarowe "Beware of the banter" - mpoletti "Now I know that some things are just out of our control and we should enjoy the good parts as much as we can." - pookstreet

01/23/2007, 01:00 PM	#32
Amphiprion Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 6,611	4 54w T5 fluorescents should be enough for all common species of clams. They will live, grow, and 'thrive' (which is extremely subjective--what constitutes it? Fast growth? Reproduction? Long term keeping? If so, than several other lighting systems have been capable of this).. There should be a relatively convincing study out soon, but I am not one to speculate results. Either way, the results will be interesting. __________________ You've done it now, haven't you? Current Tank Info: 40g breeder patch reef w/ seagrass; 2-250w XM 10K; Vortech MP40wES & MP10wES; BM Curve 7 skimmer; carbon & occasional GFO

01/23/2007, 01:09 PM	#35
Icefire Seasoned reefer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In Quebec, Canada Posts: 3,653	MH halide give 30-60 lumens/Watts (60 being some 3000K bulb) while T5 give 100 lumens/Watts. If you add parabolic reflector, you get even higher. I looked google and found no PAR reading done on T5HO. __________________ Temp 80F, PH 8.5-8.0, Alk 6.8-7.2, Ca 430, Mg 1700, NO3 0-0.25, PO4 0.04, 34.4 PPT Lights @ 100% all others, 35% White Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 120lbs live rocks, Hydra52 2x120W, 2 MP40+ 1 MP10 @ 70%, Phosban 550 GFO+Carbon, 200W Heater, SWC Skimmer, Kalk ATO, 150 gpd RODI

01/23/2007, 01:31 PM	#37
Icefire Seasoned reefer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In Quebec, Canada Posts: 3,653	All T5HO have electronic ballast not magnetic. You can also overdrive the lamps. Ge Daylight bulb should give some good PAR I guess. __________________ Temp 80F, PH 8.5-8.0, Alk 6.8-7.2, Ca 430, Mg 1700, NO3 0-0.25, PO4 0.04, 34.4 PPT Lights @ 100% all others, 35% White Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 120lbs live rocks, Hydra52 2x120W, 2 MP40+ 1 MP10 @ 70%, Phosban 550 GFO+Carbon, 200W Heater, SWC Skimmer, Kalk ATO, 150 gpd RODI

01/22/2007, 10:16 PM	#26
TWallace Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,464	If you're replying to me, I think you're confusing me with someone else. I'm not the one who said T5 has higher PAR than MH, although I have read that in a few other places.

01/22/2007, 10:31 PM	#27
AndyB4784 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: lansing, mi Posts: 309	sorry not to you read up in the post where i asked for an article of comparison between t5 and MH. I just got sidetracked while reading the post and took a few min to type my response.

01/22/2007, 11:22 PM	#28
flinster Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 209	I have 6 5 T5 over and 90 and have any SPS you can imagine as well as 4 clams, both max and croceas. The lights are so bright that I can't keep several softies.

01/23/2007, 01:05 PM	#33
jbittner Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Humboldt, NE Posts: 1,014	Everyone loves to throw around "par numbers" like they are the end all for a reef tank (light spectrum and water quality are just as important). We have no idea the PAR values from which our aquarium inhabitants come from. Not to mention we cannot perfectly duplicate these conditions using any light source. What I can tell you is under MH I was seeing less growth, less coloration and overall my tank appeared to thrive less than it does with T5. I have had 2 250 wt MH on my 55 and I loved the light but hated the cost ($400 per year in bulbs), the way my corals looked and I had to keep the room temp down to make up for the amazing amount of heat. T5 works for me, my sps, my clams (on the bottom), my lps and my softies.

01/23/2007, 01:39 PM	#38
piscivorous Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Groton, N.Y. Posts: 801	This is why I got two electronic ballasts and two 175 Watt MH bulbs for my 55.....I ultimately intend to keep clams, and didn't want to run into a debate like this when it came time to posting about my clams. Good luck with the maxima. Keep an eye on it....keep a stict eye on your water parameters....and I'd probably try to keep it rather high in the tank...but I am not familiar with T5s....so I won't go there. Just be very in tune with the condition of the clam on a daily basis and good luck

01/23/2007, 01:40 PM	#39
jbittner Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Humboldt, NE Posts: 1,014	2x 12000k Mh halide bulb $74.95 2x t5 actinics $22.95 Thats $195.80 every six months. With shipping thats atleast $400 per year from Reefgeek.

01/23/2007, 02:24 PM	#40
Rhodesholar Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Crivitz Wi Posts: 754	Here's a little explanation on T5 vs MH. I will look for more. http://www.specialty-lights.com/aqua...faq-intro.html http://www.specialty-lights.com/aqua...ghts-faq3.html

01/23/2007, 03:30 PM	#42
jbittner Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Humboldt, NE Posts: 1,014	OK $320 but i still have to buy the actinics for both systems.

01/23/2007, 03:42 PM	#43
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	STOP TURNING OTHER PEOPLES THREADS INTO A HALIDE VS. T5 DEBATE! YOU CAN RUN A REEF WITH EITHER. JUST **** AND GO DUKE IT OUT IN THE LIGHTING FORUM. I'm just so tired of seeing people ALL the time fighting about this. it's ridiculous. Keep it out of other people's posts. This guy just wants help with a clam in his tank. yes the discussion is related, but then link it, don't take over his thread with it. Jeeze...

01/23/2007, 03:54 PM	#44
ralphie16 Moved On Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,550	alrighty then..... ....so...how's the clam?

01/23/2007, 03:56 PM	#45
dippin61 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,897	well.. your not going to see par numbers on T5's until sanjay finishes up his T5 comparison thread over in the lighting section. so that is coming very soon. as for bulb replacement cost... um 2x14k hammies = 80.00 .... so yeh, the price differences in halides and T5's are not that far off, unless your looking at very expensive bulbs.. helios, xm's, phoenix... so that point is moot, because some of the german T5's are just as much. __________________ Reefers Law: It can take about 48 hours to brown, and 48 weeks to color back up! Current Tank Info: 55 Gallon BB Low Iron Glass, Dual 110w VHO Actinics, 250w PFO MH 20k XM

01/23/2007, 04:07 PM	#47
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	I'd give advice, but I'm never sure of how my clam is doing in my tank with 2x250w 2 year old halides. He seems okay? I would imagine that if you keep the clam high in the tank, it should be okay as long as most of your other parameters are in check. "If clams do not receive the proper light intensity and quality, they will lose their bright colors. This can happen very quickly. When clams lose their bright colors, the brown color of the zooxanthellae becomes visible. Unless conditions are improved immediately, the zooxanthellae may begin to disappear too, and the clam will take on a whitish-brown color. This condition is called bleaching and once this has occurred, death will follow. Improper lighting does not always cause bleaching. Bleached clams have been reported under intense metal halide lighting. This lighting is normally ideal, but the bleaching may still occur when iodine has been depleted." from http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fish...99/fnc0799.htm I put that so if you look for the signs, then you'll know whether your lighting is strong enough, before it's too late. I apologize for the outburst, but like 1/4 of the threads on RC turn into a debate whether it be about skimmer brands or tank lighting. I'm just really tired of seeing it when people are just looking for help.

01/23/2007, 09:01 PM	#50
TWallace Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,464	Pic taken tonight of the clam in my avatar: This is a little over 6 months under T5 lighting. I know that's not long enough to make a final judgement, but so far so good.