what 1st skimmer or refugium??? - Page 2

poppin_fresh · 02/09/2007, 09:35 PM

I have run my system with the 'fuge getting the raw water first...what a mistake. It tended to collect a huge amount of detritus, which was impossible to keep up with.

The thing to remember is that a skimmer removes proteins but not nitrate or phosphate and macro uptakes NO3 and PO4, but not proteins. By putting the 'fuge first you give the proteins a place to settle before they can be skimmed out. They will then break down into NO3 potentially to a level that the macro cannot keep up with. The result will be HA, Cyano, Dinos, etc.

Bottom line is to skim off the proteins before it can be broken down into NO3. There will still be enough nutrients to maintain some macro, mostly because skimmers are not perfect and will not remove the NO3 and Po4 that comes from the display and food.

lakeRat · 02/09/2007, 09:46 PM

I acknowledge there's more than one way to skin a cat, and with this hobby there's always more than one right way. But, when setting up my sump and fuge, I skim first, then to the fuge, then to the return pump. My reasoning, and from the research I did, was to skim before the fuge so you were not skimming off pods. With planning to keep a mandarin down the road, I wanted to insure that any pod that made it out of the refugium would end up in the DT, not my skimmer cup.

Does my setup hold true for the application of a fuge to produce pods, and for nitrate reduction? I don't plan to change my setup, as I think it is working well...just asking for opinions.

Reeses · 02/09/2007, 11:23 PM

lakerat,

If it is working well, then you are setup correct and you have hopefully found "the balance" for your tank. That's what it's all about.

Hey poppin_fresh,

What did you get mentioned on reefcast for?

poppin_fresh · 02/10/2007, 08:05 AM

I was the guy who wrote Melev about how he was right that hydrometers sucked. It was episode 2 or 3 I think. It was my 15 minutes of fame

cdbias2 · 02/12/2007, 06:47 AM

Why has no one mentioned anything about the size of the fuge?
Today people run fuges twice as large as there tank and others only want a couple of gallons to raise a small amount of food. Therefore there is some truth to all that was said. On the other hand no one should expect to run 600 gph thru even a 15 gallon fuge compartment. Most people do not have the luxury to have a large sump/fuge so you have to have an alternate feed to your fuge to reduce flow. This being said, I believe on the front or the rear is a bad place for a fuge if all of your recirculating water is running thru it. I have seen some new ideas for sumps with fuges on the inside/side that allow for most of the recirculating water to by-pass the fuge. (black glass so light doesn't penatrate to the rest of the sump) These are cool!
I use a filter sock before anything enters my sump. (these are great) Then Im hoping to sort water with a power head into a taller separate tank (2 1/2g), beside my sump, with an over flow back into my sump. (Homemade aquafuge) This way I can control the flow into my fuge and I can also draw water from what ever part of my sump I see fit.

bnhd3 · 02/12/2007, 08:33 AM

here is a link to the a sump design that works the best if you have two overflows. i especially like that you can control the flow to the fuge.
http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

i modeled my new one after this version. myfirst sump was skimmer,fuge, then return. my new sump w/ fuge is far better. here are some pics.

a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"> Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

cdbias2 · 02/12/2007, 11:18 AM

This is very nice however the link you provided shows how to plumb this sump/fuge with ony one overflow also.

bronxer · 02/14/2007, 09:41 AM

I currently have a 10 gallon fuge, but my question is about the wetdry I have. I see everyone mentioning the sump, but no one seems to have a wetdry. Are they really that bad? I was told the bio balls that are helping to keep my system going are actually rather bad in other ways - out of control nitrates (which I have). Is this true?

That's my first question. the second one is: How much live rock do you recommend I have before I can remove the bio balls from my wetdry and turn it into a sump? I do not want to remove the wetdry from the equation because I have nothing to replace it with and there are q-tip sponges in it.

DrBegalke · 02/14/2007, 10:45 AM

i would put the skimmer first.

otherwise, you'll be skimming out the copepods/algae, etc that should be going to the tank.

also, there be plenty of nutrients in the water after the skimmer for the fuge.

bnhd3 · 02/14/2007, 11:51 AM

just do the return in the center and have the best of both worlds!

mnestroy · 02/14/2007, 02:12 PM

I'm for having Skimmer->Fuge->Return

For me there is nothing more frustrating than having micro bubbles in my tank. Most bubbles are caused by the overflow/drain hose and a skimmer...

Forcing the bubbles through Baffles/Macro/Sand/Rock Rubble/Baffle is a pretty good way to ensure none make it to your return pump.

Shagsbeard · 02/14/2007, 02:54 PM

I prefer to have neither. My drain is split between the two areas and both empty into the return area. Check out Melev's site:

http://www.melevsreef.com/

bnhd3 · 02/14/2007, 03:42 PM

i have absolutely no problem with micro bubbles in tank with my setup:

Danger731 · 02/14/2007, 03:57 PM

skimmer / fuge / return see pics

02/09/2007, 09:35 PM	#26
poppin_fresh Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,982	I have run my system with the 'fuge getting the raw water first...what a mistake. It tended to collect a huge amount of detritus, which was impossible to keep up with. The thing to remember is that a skimmer removes proteins but not nitrate or phosphate and macro uptakes NO3 and PO4, but not proteins. By putting the 'fuge first you give the proteins a place to settle before they can be skimmed out. They will then break down into NO3 potentially to a level that the macro cannot keep up with. The result will be HA, Cyano, Dinos, etc. Bottom line is to skim off the proteins before it can be broken down into NO3. There will still be enough nutrients to maintain some macro, mostly because skimmers are not perfect and will not remove the NO3 and Po4 that comes from the display and food. __________________ PBITAWA! Current Tank Info: None now. Past- 180g w/ 100g basement sump and 20g 'fuge. H & S skimmer, T'5s & Tunze

02/09/2007, 11:23 PM	#28
Reeses Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 606	lakerat, If it is working well, then you are setup correct and you have hopefully found "the balance" for your tank. That's what it's all about. Hey poppin_fresh, What did you get mentioned on reefcast for? __________________ There are two systems at work in every tank. There's the system you created and the system IT created. Current Tank Info: Just left :0(

02/10/2007, 08:05 AM	#29
poppin_fresh Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,982	I was the guy who wrote Melev about how he was right that hydrometers sucked. It was episode 2 or 3 I think. It was my 15 minutes of fame __________________ PBITAWA! Current Tank Info: None now. Past- 180g w/ 100g basement sump and 20g 'fuge. H & S skimmer, T'5s & Tunze

02/12/2007, 06:47 AM	#30
cdbias2 Appalachian Reef Society Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Alum Creek, WV (No more) Posts: 1,433	Fuge front or rear Why has no one mentioned anything about the size of the fuge? Today people run fuges twice as large as there tank and others only want a couple of gallons to raise a small amount of food. Therefore there is some truth to all that was said. On the other hand no one should expect to run 600 gph thru even a 15 gallon fuge compartment. Most people do not have the luxury to have a large sump/fuge so you have to have an alternate feed to your fuge to reduce flow. This being said, I believe on the front or the rear is a bad place for a fuge if all of your recirculating water is running thru it. I have seen some new ideas for sumps with fuges on the inside/side that allow for most of the recirculating water to by-pass the fuge. (black glass so light doesn't penatrate to the rest of the sump) These are cool! I use a filter sock before anything enters my sump. (these are great) Then Im hoping to sort water with a power head into a taller separate tank (2 1/2g), beside my sump, with an over flow back into my sump. (Homemade aquafuge) This way I can control the flow into my fuge and I can also draw water from what ever part of my sump I see fit.

02/12/2007, 08:33 AM	#31
bnhd3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: central georgia Posts: 210	here is a link to the a sump design that works the best if you have two overflows. i especially like that you can control the flow to the fuge. http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html i modeled my new one after this version. myfirst sump was skimmer,fuge, then return. my new sump w/ fuge is far better. here are some pics. a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"> __________________ "showing one's teeth is a submission signal in primates. When someone smiles at me all i see is a chimpanzee begging for it's life." -dwight schrute- Current Tank Info: 125g reef,20g frag tank, 200lbs. LR, 65g sump w/ fuge, mag 9.5 return pump, aqua c 240 ev skimmer w/ mag18, 2x250watt 15000k halides, 4x96watt pc's 420nm, 2 tunze 6000's w/ single controller, MRC CR-2 cal. reactor

02/09/2007, 09:46 PM	#27
lakeRat Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Liberty, Ky Posts: 35	I acknowledge there's more than one way to skin a cat, and with this hobby there's always more than one right way. But, when setting up my sump and fuge, I skim first, then to the fuge, then to the return pump. My reasoning, and from the research I did, was to skim before the fuge so you were not skimming off pods. With planning to keep a mandarin down the road, I wanted to insure that any pod that made it out of the refugium would end up in the DT, not my skimmer cup. Does my setup hold true for the application of a fuge to produce pods, and for nitrate reduction? I don't plan to change my setup, as I think it is working well...just asking for opinions.

02/12/2007, 11:18 AM	#32
cdbias2 Appalachian Reef Society Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Alum Creek, WV (No more) Posts: 1,433	This is very nice however the link you provided shows how to plumb this sump/fuge with ony one overflow also.

02/14/2007, 09:41 AM	#33
bronxer Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 41	I currently have a 10 gallon fuge, but my question is about the wetdry I have. I see everyone mentioning the sump, but no one seems to have a wetdry. Are they really that bad? I was told the bio balls that are helping to keep my system going are actually rather bad in other ways - out of control nitrates (which I have). Is this true? That's my first question. the second one is: How much live rock do you recommend I have before I can remove the bio balls from my wetdry and turn it into a sump? I do not want to remove the wetdry from the equation because I have nothing to replace it with and there are q-tip sponges in it.

02/14/2007, 10:45 AM	#34
DrBegalke Go Buckeyes! Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Phoenix area, AZ Posts: 2,599	i would put the skimmer first. otherwise, you'll be skimming out the copepods/algae, etc that should be going to the tank. also, there be plenty of nutrients in the water after the skimmer for the fuge. __________________ ~Jason Begalke Current Tank Info: Latest project: JBJ Cubey

02/14/2007, 11:51 AM	#35
bnhd3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: central georgia Posts: 210	just do the return in the center and have the best of both worlds! __________________ "showing one's teeth is a submission signal in primates. When someone smiles at me all i see is a chimpanzee begging for it's life." -dwight schrute- Current Tank Info: 125g reef,20g frag tank, 200lbs. LR, 65g sump w/ fuge, mag 9.5 return pump, aqua c 240 ev skimmer w/ mag18, 2x250watt 15000k halides, 4x96watt pc's 420nm, 2 tunze 6000's w/ single controller, MRC CR-2 cal. reactor

02/14/2007, 02:12 PM	#36
mnestroy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Aurora, IL Posts: 2,216	I'm for having Skimmer->Fuge->Return For me there is nothing more frustrating than having micro bubbles in my tank. Most bubbles are caused by the overflow/drain hose and a skimmer... Forcing the bubbles through Baffles/Macro/Sand/Rock Rubble/Baffle is a pretty good way to ensure none make it to your return pump.

02/14/2007, 02:54 PM	#37
Shagsbeard Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 2,143	I prefer to have neither. My drain is split between the two areas and both empty into the return area. Check out Melev's site: http://www.melevsreef.com/

02/14/2007, 03:42 PM	#38
bnhd3 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: central georgia Posts: 210	i have absolutely no problem with micro bubbles in tank with my setup: __________________ "showing one's teeth is a submission signal in primates. When someone smiles at me all i see is a chimpanzee begging for it's life." -dwight schrute- Current Tank Info: 125g reef,20g frag tank, 200lbs. LR, 65g sump w/ fuge, mag 9.5 return pump, aqua c 240 ev skimmer w/ mag18, 2x250watt 15000k halides, 4x96watt pc's 420nm, 2 tunze 6000's w/ single controller, MRC CR-2 cal. reactor

02/14/2007, 03:57 PM	#39
Danger731 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 300	skimmer / fuge / return see pics __________________ Jebo 375 R , 20 gallon sump/fuge started march 04 from two 15 gallon nano's Now a 30 Gal FOWLR as well Dec 06