1400 ppm cal, 115 kh - Page 2

oldsaltman · 02/15/2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ayort
P.S. Yes I test my topoff water and yes I test tank water about an hour later to insure I'm still in accepted perameters on KH.
What is makeup water, I've never heard or read anything about makeup water.

Whatever your source of water is for the "saltwater" that you "Make up".

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/15/2007, 01:13 PM

Ever measure calcium in that effluent? It should not be an issue if the RO membrane is functioning properly, but if it were leaking or defective, there could be substantial calcium in some tap water (up to 100 ppm or more).

mattboy · 02/15/2007, 01:27 PM

Assuming you've presented all the informaton about what's going into your tank, the only possible answer is that there's something in your substrate that is "fooling" the test kit into giving you a much higher CA reading than you actually have. At least that's the only possibility I can think of. To make sure I've understood everything, tell me if I'm missing anything:

1.You test freshly mixed salt with your test kit, using the water that's also in your tank. The test result is a little low, but more or less normal.

2. You add this to your tank, and add no other substance except for superbuffer which is basically sodium carbonate/bicarbonate mix. You measure an impossibly high Ca level, unless your ph is so low that nothing would survive in your tank.

3. You have a relatively new tank with sand that you're not convinced is appropriate.

4. Since it's impossible to have that high a Ca level, the test result must be wrong; this also explains the extreme jump in level from the SAME SALTWATER that was in an external mixing tub. You're fairly confident of the test kit, because it reads something reasonable in the mixing tub. So something in the tank, my guess is the sand, is skewing your test result.

Have I misunderstood anything? Here's the bad news...if you want to replace the sand in your tank, you probably need to get all your livestock out, all the rock, and drain the tank, scoop out the sand, replace it, start over with entirely new water, toss a couple of pieces of live rock in to help seed the new sand bed, maybe some live sand from a friend's tank, let it settle for several days, and rebuild your reef. Sorry about that!

In your case I would suggest going to a local fish store and getting some "pure caribbean" aragonitic sand, or ordering it from the place in FL that sells it. It's more expensive than southdown, but it will clear up faster and you'll have confidence that it's the right stuff for a reef tank.

Habib · 02/15/2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ayort
I've been using Hagan calcium and KH. However I also tested calcium with an aquarium systems test that also showed 1100+. I was sure the hagan was wrong until The second test showed the same results.
Also I've been using instant ocean due to an average calcium of 280 after mixing.

That could be the culprit.

I have seen similar posts. Both the brands sometimes have issues with the color change.

The change should be very abrupt , within one drop, utmost 2 drops from red/pink to blue.

If that doen't happen the color will stay purper-ish during many drops.... the color change is thus not sharp , sluggish and the measured value incorrect.

I know you used two of the same brand and one from another but if the above is true in you case then I would highly suspect the measured values.

bertoni · 02/15/2007, 05:04 PM

The Aquarium Systems test required some waiting, when I used it. Once the first purple shows up, I had to let it sit for a minute or so (a real minute), and then continue the titration. Usually a couple of drops would do the job. Without the waiting, the color change didn't happen until far too many drops were added.

ayort · 02/16/2007, 11:15 AM

Well as I suspected if you ask a question about a salt water aquarium, or read five books about any subject you get the same number of different answer as people answering or books read.
Before moving from Boulder, Colo. water supply. to the North Denver water supply. I ran a very successful reef aquarium for four years with an undergravel and a wet dry filter. Almost everything I read and everything I was told was.... Never use an undergravel filter in a reef, and I should run a refugium and small grain sand as apposed to large sized crushed coral. So after moving I set the tank up with this fine sand, no undergravel filter and put together the refugium.
Now my tank is a money pit of failior. Unable after a year to support crustations, mandrins or anything else for that matter if support means health. Before I refused to listen to people in the local shop because they never had the answer and often were not nice about it. Now I'm almost ready to build it back up the way it was. Large shelly sand and a big thick undergravel.
I like the refugium, this is a great place for nitrate removal and has done amazing things.
anybody know the advantages of a plenum, sence I will be rebuilding anyway?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/16/2007, 05:13 PM

Well as I suspected if you ask a question about a salt water aquarium, or read five books about any subject you get the same number of different answer as people answering or books read.

That may be true of many aspects of reef aquariums, but in this thread I don't see differences of opinion on facts or actions. I see a lot of possible explanations for something that you reported that is far from the norm. In fact, in the 137,180 posts in this forum on chemistry issues, I can't recall anyone ever claiming that calcium was 1400 ppm or higher, with or without any explanation of how it might have happened.

ayort · 02/17/2007, 11:47 AM

Well I followed everyones advice and had the water tested at the shop, after getting an 1180 reading with 1 drop of regent 3 every 1 minute. this took forever, but was accurate. The shop got a reading of 1120ish.
I guess my aquarium is the acception to the given rule.

I'm going to remove and replace my gravel. The only major calcium supply in the tank. I only wish someone could explain what makes it desolve. I can see clearly that everyone believes this isn't and can't be true. but it is true that calcium is leaching into my tank from something, and it does not enter through water changes, as I stated before freshly mixed water after a day cycle in the mix tank = close to regular calcium readings.
Then add it to the tank wait three days, and the levels are off the charts again. But it can't happen.... the sand can't do that.... the test must be wrong....something about if I'm using tap water...
On and on and on. I believe something is happening that you all don't understand. I know I don't understand, however the answer is not denial, it's would be research. Instead of that's not possible (when it is) doesn't help, it's just insulting.
I know that in ground water tests soft is 1/2 GRAIN per gal. Hard water is as high as 10 1/2 grains of calcium per gallon. This is just a guess but isn't grains per gallon a much larger measurment then parts per million?
I should also add that I have calcium creep, most of my aquariums life I had salt creep, which isn't a big deal but imagine having to chip the stuff off with a knife and it won't desolve in moving water over 3 days. This stuff encrusts my overflow the protien skimmer and the return head, all the way around the water line in the tank, the sump, and early stages in the refugium. But it's not calcium RIGHT??? Can't be..
And yes I do remove the stuff every cleaning.

mattboy · 02/17/2007, 12:09 PM

As I said before, if the information you've given is accurate, (I have no reason to doubt your statements) the only possible answer is that your sand is "fooling" the test kit into a false positive. When I first set up my tank, Ca and Alk readings were extremely high while the SD sand was settling. Since you seem to lack confidence in your sand, I suggest you remove it. It's alot of work, unfortunately, but I bet it will solve your problem.

Nobody on this forum is insulting you or accusing you of being in denial. Instead, you're getting sincere, polite advice from some very experienced reefkeepers, at no charge! Isn't that nice?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/17/2007, 02:21 PM

So after moving I set the tank up with this fine sand,

What sand exactly? Gypsum is calcium sulfate,. It will do exactly as you are experiencing: dissolve to give massive calcium levels. It is not normally sold for aquaria, and is never recommended.

Removing the gravel is a fine idea, but unless it is gypsum or other soluble calcium minerals, it is not a big source of calcium and will not solve the calcium problem. Calcium carbonate simply is not dissolving to give that calcium level, and looking for people who will suggest it is is simply looking for people who are inadequately informed about seawater chemistry.

[Instead of that's not possible (when it is) doesn't help, it's just insulting.

I understand your frustration, but science is not black magic. Even if you somehow got calcium carbonate to dissolve, it boosts alkalinity a lot more than calcium. Boosting calcium by 1000 ppm would boost alkalinity by 50 meq/L (140 dKH; 2,500 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents, which I think is the unit of measure that you are using for alkalinity (KH)). There just is no other possibility with dissolving calcium carbonate. Presumably alkalinity is not that high, and you have not been adding mineral acids to dissolve the calcium carbonate and reduce the alkalinity.

What is the tank alkalinity today? What is the pH?

You list a bunch of materials in the tank. Can you tell us exactly what they are,not telling us that they are not calcium. Perhaps they are dissolving. Maybe they contain gypsum? Artificial rocks may do so.

"In my tank there is a 15lbs lava base rock (Not made of calcium) 1 35lbs base rock with three large caves (also not made of calcium). 1-7lbs live rock and 2-3lbs live rocks then a couple of smaller dead corals which I've had sence before I move (pointing out that they never changed the calcium before the move) 55lbs of sand (used to be 80 lbs) I don't know where the other 25lbs went, but 1 year ago the sand was 3 inches deep, now its 2."

02/15/2007, 01:13 PM	#27
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Ever measure calcium in that effluent? It should not be an issue if the RO membrane is functioning properly, but if it were leaking or defective, there could be substantial calcium in some tap water (up to 100 ppm or more). __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 02/15/2007 at 03:02 PM.

02/15/2007, 05:04 PM	#30
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The Aquarium Systems test required some waiting, when I used it. Once the first purple shows up, I had to let it sit for a minute or so (a real minute), and then continue the titration. Usually a couple of drops would do the job. Without the waiting, the color change didn't happen until far too many drops were added. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/16/2007, 05:13 PM	#32
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Well as I suspected if you ask a question about a salt water aquarium, or read five books about any subject you get the same number of different answer as people answering or books read. That may be true of many aspects of reef aquariums, but in this thread I don't see differences of opinion on facts or actions. I see a lot of possible explanations for something that you reported that is far from the norm. In fact, in the 137,180 posts in this forum on chemistry issues, I can't recall anyone ever claiming that calcium was 1400 ppm or higher, with or without any explanation of how it might have happened. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/17/2007, 02:21 PM	#35
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	So after moving I set the tank up with this fine sand, What sand exactly? Gypsum is calcium sulfate,. It will do exactly as you are experiencing: dissolve to give massive calcium levels. It is not normally sold for aquaria, and is never recommended. Removing the gravel is a fine idea, but unless it is gypsum or other soluble calcium minerals, it is not a big source of calcium and will not solve the calcium problem. Calcium carbonate simply is not dissolving to give that calcium level, and looking for people who will suggest it is is simply looking for people who are inadequately informed about seawater chemistry. [Instead of that's not possible (when it is) doesn't help, it's just insulting. I understand your frustration, but science is not black magic. Even if you somehow got calcium carbonate to dissolve, it boosts alkalinity a lot more than calcium. Boosting calcium by 1000 ppm would boost alkalinity by 50 meq/L (140 dKH; 2,500 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents, which I think is the unit of measure that you are using for alkalinity (KH)). There just is no other possibility with dissolving calcium carbonate. Presumably alkalinity is not that high, and you have not been adding mineral acids to dissolve the calcium carbonate and reduce the alkalinity. What is the tank alkalinity today? What is the pH? You list a bunch of materials in the tank. Can you tell us exactly what they are,not telling us that they are not calcium. Perhaps they are dissolving. Maybe they contain gypsum? Artificial rocks may do so. "In my tank there is a 15lbs lava base rock (Not made of calcium) 1 35lbs base rock with three large caves (also not made of calcium). 1-7lbs live rock and 2-3lbs live rocks then a couple of smaller dead corals which I've had sence before I move (pointing out that they never changed the calcium before the move) 55lbs of sand (used to be 80 lbs) I don't know where the other 25lbs went, but 1 year ago the sand was 3 inches deep, now its 2." __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 02/17/2007 at 03:06 PM.

02/15/2007, 01:27 PM	#28
mattboy Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Antonio Posts: 453	Assuming you've presented all the informaton about what's going into your tank, the only possible answer is that there's something in your substrate that is "fooling" the test kit into giving you a much higher CA reading than you actually have. At least that's the only possibility I can think of. To make sure I've understood everything, tell me if I'm missing anything: 1.You test freshly mixed salt with your test kit, using the water that's also in your tank. The test result is a little low, but more or less normal. 2. You add this to your tank, and add no other substance except for superbuffer which is basically sodium carbonate/bicarbonate mix. You measure an impossibly high Ca level, unless your ph is so low that nothing would survive in your tank. 3. You have a relatively new tank with sand that you're not convinced is appropriate. 4. Since it's impossible to have that high a Ca level, the test result must be wrong; this also explains the extreme jump in level from the SAME SALTWATER that was in an external mixing tub. You're fairly confident of the test kit, because it reads something reasonable in the mixing tub. So something in the tank, my guess is the sand, is skewing your test result. Have I misunderstood anything? Here's the bad news...if you want to replace the sand in your tank, you probably need to get all your livestock out, all the rock, and drain the tank, scoop out the sand, replace it, start over with entirely new water, toss a couple of pieces of live rock in to help seed the new sand bed, maybe some live sand from a friend's tank, let it settle for several days, and rebuild your reef. Sorry about that! In your case I would suggest going to a local fish store and getting some "pure caribbean" aragonitic sand, or ordering it from the place in FL that sells it. It's more expensive than southdown, but it will clear up faster and you'll have confidence that it's the right stuff for a reef tank.

02/16/2007, 11:15 AM	#31
ayort Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Arvada, Colo. Posts: 38	Well as I suspected if you ask a question about a salt water aquarium, or read five books about any subject you get the same number of different answer as people answering or books read. Before moving from Boulder, Colo. water supply. to the North Denver water supply. I ran a very successful reef aquarium for four years with an undergravel and a wet dry filter. Almost everything I read and everything I was told was.... Never use an undergravel filter in a reef, and I should run a refugium and small grain sand as apposed to large sized crushed coral. So after moving I set the tank up with this fine sand, no undergravel filter and put together the refugium. Now my tank is a money pit of failior. Unable after a year to support crustations, mandrins or anything else for that matter if support means health. Before I refused to listen to people in the local shop because they never had the answer and often were not nice about it. Now I'm almost ready to build it back up the way it was. Large shelly sand and a big thick undergravel. I like the refugium, this is a great place for nitrate removal and has done amazing things. anybody know the advantages of a plenum, sence I will be rebuilding anyway?

02/17/2007, 11:47 AM	#33
ayort Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Arvada, Colo. Posts: 38	Well I followed everyones advice and had the water tested at the shop, after getting an 1180 reading with 1 drop of regent 3 every 1 minute. this took forever, but was accurate. The shop got a reading of 1120ish. I guess my aquarium is the acception to the given rule. I'm going to remove and replace my gravel. The only major calcium supply in the tank. I only wish someone could explain what makes it desolve. I can see clearly that everyone believes this isn't and can't be true. but it is true that calcium is leaching into my tank from something, and it does not enter through water changes, as I stated before freshly mixed water after a day cycle in the mix tank = close to regular calcium readings. Then add it to the tank wait three days, and the levels are off the charts again. But it can't happen.... the sand can't do that.... the test must be wrong....something about if I'm using tap water... On and on and on. I believe something is happening that you all don't understand. I know I don't understand, however the answer is not denial, it's would be research. Instead of that's not possible (when it is) doesn't help, it's just insulting. I know that in ground water tests soft is 1/2 GRAIN per gal. Hard water is as high as 10 1/2 grains of calcium per gallon. This is just a guess but isn't grains per gallon a much larger measurment then parts per million? I should also add that I have calcium creep, most of my aquariums life I had salt creep, which isn't a big deal but imagine having to chip the stuff off with a knife and it won't desolve in moving water over 3 days. This stuff encrusts my overflow the protien skimmer and the return head, all the way around the water line in the tank, the sump, and early stages in the refugium. But it's not calcium RIGHT??? Can't be.. And yes I do remove the stuff every cleaning.

02/17/2007, 12:09 PM	#34
mattboy Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Antonio Posts: 453	As I said before, if the information you've given is accurate, (I have no reason to doubt your statements) the only possible answer is that your sand is "fooling" the test kit into a false positive. When I first set up my tank, Ca and Alk readings were extremely high while the SD sand was settling. Since you seem to lack confidence in your sand, I suggest you remove it. It's alot of work, unfortunately, but I bet it will solve your problem. Nobody on this forum is insulting you or accusing you of being in denial. Instead, you're getting sincere, polite advice from some very experienced reefkeepers, at no charge! Isn't that nice?