It's living inside my frogfish!!! - Page 2

omni2226 · 04/12/2007, 08:55 AM

If you are not concerned with keeping the bug alive use the technique for killing ticks.

Using scissors or perhaps a sharp knife cut the bug in half. This will kill it. After it is dead the claws/attaching appendage will loosen its grip and you can pull it off/out.

May be easier if you can get someone to hold the fish while you do the cutting.

Gordonious · 04/12/2007, 09:00 AM

Well the only person I have found that has gone through this was also unable to manual extract the blood sucker while it was alive. These things dig in deep and attach well. It is also very large for the gill opening so if it spreads out it's many legs at all there will be much ripping as it is holding on.

This type of fish is also known to have it's own body collapse upon itself when being held above the water. You get the idea that you can't really just grab the fish tightly with your hand and start yanking the thing out.

nsreefer · 04/12/2007, 09:34 AM

Is there some way you could kill the bug manually before extricating it? Perhaps use a small syringe to inject some air into it? Or just cut it into pieces and remove it that way?

bph0013 · 04/12/2007, 10:34 AM

Could you not just move the fish to a hospital tank and use interceptor? It's designed to destroy the carapace of insects or anthropods I believe. You would just need to find out if it would affect the fish or not. I know others have mentioned interceptor before I just don't know why that wouldn't work.

Gordonious · 04/12/2007, 10:35 AM

omni2226 and nsreefer, you have a good idea, but doing this I can't forget what Sk8r said, "the rot would not be a good thing." If I resort to cutting and lose small pieces inside the gill these would be he|| to remove and probably cause infections.

Jon

Sk8r · 04/12/2007, 10:45 AM

Gordonius, you live fairly close to certain large marine public showplaces, like the national aquarium, etc, possibly some marine research university resources: you might give one a phone call and see if they have a fish/parasites guy onsite or online who might be able to give you some advice. Ideally---something to make that pest come bailing out of there without further damage. Teachers, professors, and the like usually don't mind an interesting question.

ChrisB · 04/12/2007, 11:09 AM

Sk8r,

I am amazed that there isn't anyone in here that knows exactly what to do. This IS REEFCENTRAL for crying out loud!!!! One of you heavy hitters step up to the plate!

QUESTION: If this "vermin" is imbedded via the gills, then after it is dead and begins to rot and its grip is loosened, won't it be expelled or enter the mouth/throat and be spat out ??? before it causes any additional problems? Of course, the wound from being imbedded would have to be dealt with regardless of how the animal is extracted.

PITSTOP · 04/12/2007, 11:21 AM

OMG

I just read this thread and video - amazing!

I am man enought to admit that I got the heebie jeebies when I saw the video - yikes - soooooo gross.

I like the interceptor idea...

Driftwood · 04/12/2007, 11:50 AM

It wouldn't just sit in there and decompose. It would let go and be very easy to extract. If you read that angler thread that is what happened to him after the iso died.

Dave

Gordonious · 04/12/2007, 11:51 AM

What antibiotics do I order? I have never used any kind of meds or antibiotics with my tank and I am working on a limited budget, so I can't afford to order just what ever and have someone tell me not to buy it 5 minutes after I order.

fishyvet · 04/12/2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bph0013
Could you not just move the fish to a hospital tank and use interceptor? It's designed to destroy the carapace of insects or anthropods I believe. You would just need to find out if it would affect the fish or not. I know others have mentioned interceptor before I just don't know why that wouldn't work.

Interceptor works by interfering with the transmission of the neurotransmittor GABA causing causing death in invertebrates. It dose not have the same effect on vertebrates because GABA is located in the central nervous system and Interceptor does not cross the blood brain barrier. However, certian vertebrates (such as collie dogs) have defects in their blood brain barrier and high doses of interceptor results in toxic side effects.

No treatment is without risk but I personally would start with the least invasive options first. It sounds really scary to me to try to yank that sucker out of the fish with the possibility that it may just dig further in.

I had a professor in undergrad who worked in a lab and whenever his dog got a tick, he would borrow ether from the lab and douse the tick with it. The tick would fall asleep from the ether and release its hold on the dog making removal effortless. Perhaps you could try anesthetizing the fish and the isopod would fall asleep too and then let go. Just tossing out another idea...

hogben · 04/12/2007, 12:15 PM

That movie is going to creep me out all day. It's like that earwig laying eggs in someones "ear" and then they hatch and...

vsnsofadrgn · 04/12/2007, 12:51 PM

eeewwww. yuck.

i have nothing to offer other than hope that you get that sucker out.

musty baby · 04/12/2007, 02:16 PM

Personally, if you can even attempt to remove it manually you must have a line of sight. I would get an insulin syringe, some interceptor, and attempt to inject the isopod. Should kill it and allow easy removal. If there was a "miss" and you ended up spraying interceptor into the gill area of the fish it should be pushed right out with the flow. Minimal use of the interceptor, probably the maximum probability of killing the isopod. Certainly a better idea than ripping it alive out of the fish.

Tyler.L · 04/12/2007, 02:41 PM

this is raw...i am for the cut it a little and then take it out in a day or so...seems an easy route

Gordonious · 04/12/2007, 04:23 PM

I just want to try to pull it out or cut it if I have to, but I still don't know what antibiotics to use. If someone could recommend them and I also need to know how dangerous they are to use them around a reef tank.

I know I should probably use the antibiotics in a bare bottom qt tank, but will the silicon in the edges of that tank absorb the antibiotic and not be aloud to be used for free inverts in the future, like a tank that has been used to treat copper or other heavy metals?

Jon

G13 · 04/12/2007, 04:47 PM

Melafix is reef safe, i've tried it in my reef. Don't know if it's great at treating wounds but have heard on this and other sites about people having success with it.

mr pink floyd · 04/12/2007, 04:57 PM

melafix is great for treating wounds, saved my pygmy angel 2 times after gettign torn up by a territorial pseudo, both times his fins were nearly destroyed, and he had some decent bites and scraped on his sides.

good luck

reefshadow · 04/12/2007, 05:15 PM

I would look into anesthetizing the fish with clove oil and surgically or semi-surgically remove the isopod. Is the isopod in the gill? It looks like it is just burrowed in the side of the fish. I'm not sure if the clove oil will effect the isopod, it could be a lucky side effect though I suppose.

Really, what additional harm can you do? Leaving it seems like a sure death sentence, and obviously you can't introduce the fish into a display and risk additional contamination to your other fish.

So I would get some sterile forceps or tweezers, 2 pairs hemostats and a scalpel, anesthesise the fish with the recommended dose and duration of clove oil, cut the opening wider if necessary with scapel and spread with hemostats, then get a good hold on the isopod and pull it out slowly and firmly, then treat in QT with a low dosage of maracyn 1 (erythromycin). The EM should keep your biofilter in the QT mostly intact, many folks (including me) have even used it in displays safely. Freshwater maracyn is cheaper and the same as the saltwater (the saltwater formula simply has a vitamin added).

If your fish is hardy enough to be living for the present time with this large a parasite, minor surgery shouldn't be too additionally stressfull, and I really don't see any other option?

If you can get another person involved with this it would be much easier. Beg them or pay them, lol. I would:

1. Anesthesize the fish in a large shallow container
2. have person 2 spread the opening wider with the hemostats and hold it open, after any necessary incision has been made
3. firmly grasp the isopod and pull it out
4. Remove fish to QT with low dose maracyn

Gosh, good luck. That is gross!

reefshadow · 04/12/2007, 05:18 PM

Oh, with EM, make sure you keep oxygen very high! It will also make a skimmer go nuts BTW

Canarygirl · 04/12/2007, 05:21 PM

I can't see the thing! Where should I be looking?

andyjd · 04/12/2007, 06:21 PM

My wife is a Marine Biology student, I'll ask her if someone in Auburn University can give some advice.

Andy

Icefire · 04/12/2007, 06:24 PM

Why buy any antibiotic?

That some tweezer and remove it.

andyjd · 04/12/2007, 06:24 PM

try and contact greenbean36191 here on RC, he is also a Marine Bio student he might know someone.

Andy

Gordonious · 04/12/2007, 06:30 PM

Umm.... the thing might be gone! It has moved out of the fish(hopefully) or further into the fish. It is no longer visible from the outside. And it is hard to tell on this aqward shaped fish if it has just moved a bit.

Canarygirl. Watch the very beginning of the video several times by clicking on the time line at the start.

Jon

04/12/2007, 08:55 AM	#26
omni2226 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Middle Florida Posts: 774	If you are not concerned with keeping the bug alive use the technique for killing ticks. Using scissors or perhaps a sharp knife cut the bug in half. This will kill it. After it is dead the claws/attaching appendage will loosen its grip and you can pull it off/out. May be easier if you can get someone to hold the fish while you do the cutting. __________________ I know enough to know I know nothing. Current Tank Info: 55 Marine. 29 Freshwater planted.

04/12/2007, 10:34 AM	#29
bph0013 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Denton, Texas Posts: 317	Could you not just move the fish to a hospital tank and use interceptor? It's designed to destroy the carapace of insects or anthropods I believe. You would just need to find out if it would affect the fish or not. I know others have mentioned interceptor before I just don't know why that wouldn't work. __________________ Ben Current Tank Info: 40br SPS Reef, 20H sump/refugium, L3MS on a ARO 250W E-ballast, 250w XM 20k bulb, 2 x Tunze 6025 NS, Tunze 9005 DOC Skimmer, Mag 5 return

04/12/2007, 10:45 AM	#31
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Gordonius, you live fairly close to certain large marine public showplaces, like the national aquarium, etc, possibly some marine research university resources: you might give one a phone call and see if they have a fish/parasites guy onsite or online who might be able to give you some advice. Ideally---something to make that pest come bailing out of there without further damage. Teachers, professors, and the like usually don't mind an interesting question. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

04/12/2007, 11:09 AM	#32
ChrisB Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Decatur, Alabama Posts: 543	Sk8r, I am amazed that there isn't anyone in here that knows exactly what to do. This IS REEFCENTRAL for crying out loud!!!! One of you heavy hitters step up to the plate! QUESTION: If this "vermin" is imbedded via the gills, then after it is dead and begins to rot and its grip is loosened, won't it be expelled or enter the mouth/throat and be spat out ??? before it causes any additional problems? Of course, the wound from being imbedded would have to be dealt with regardless of how the animal is extracted. __________________ Chris Current Tank Info: Working on it...

04/12/2007, 11:21 AM	#33
PITSTOP Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwich, CT Posts: 1,592	OMG I just read this thread and video - amazing! I am man enought to admit that I got the heebie jeebies when I saw the video - yikes - soooooo gross. I like the interceptor idea... __________________ SPS-Anon Current Tank Info: 120 SPS

04/12/2007, 09:00 AM	#27
Gordonious Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newark DE Posts: 3,393	Well the only person I have found that has gone through this was also unable to manual extract the blood sucker while it was alive. These things dig in deep and attach well. It is also very large for the gill opening so if it spreads out it's many legs at all there will be much ripping as it is holding on. This type of fish is also known to have it's own body collapse upon itself when being held above the water. You get the idea that you can't really just grab the fish tightly with your hand and start yanking the thing out.

04/12/2007, 09:34 AM	#28
nsreefer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Stratford, PEI Posts: 502	Is there some way you could kill the bug manually before extricating it? Perhaps use a small syringe to inject some air into it? Or just cut it into pieces and remove it that way?

04/12/2007, 10:35 AM	#30
Gordonious Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newark DE Posts: 3,393	omni2226 and nsreefer, you have a good idea, but doing this I can't forget what Sk8r said, "the rot would not be a good thing." If I resort to cutting and lose small pieces inside the gill these would be he\|\| to remove and probably cause infections. Jon

04/12/2007, 11:50 AM	#34
Driftwood Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gardiner, ME Posts: 841	It wouldn't just sit in there and decompose. It would let go and be very easy to extract. If you read that angler thread that is what happened to him after the iso died. Dave

04/12/2007, 11:51 AM	#35
Gordonious Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newark DE Posts: 3,393	What antibiotics do I order? I have never used any kind of meds or antibiotics with my tank and I am working on a limited budget, so I can't afford to order just what ever and have someone tell me not to buy it 5 minutes after I order.

04/12/2007, 12:15 PM	#37
hogben Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 376	That movie is going to creep me out all day. It's like that earwig laying eggs in someones "ear" and then they hatch and...

04/12/2007, 12:51 PM	#38
vsnsofadrgn Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 160	eeewwww. yuck. i have nothing to offer other than hope that you get that sucker out. __________________ visionsofadragon hope dies last Current Tank Info: 29 gal. 75 lbs lr. 20 gal sump w/fuge. css 65. sunpod 150w mh. aquaripure denitrator. clam. hammer. rics. yumas. zoas. hermit crabs. snails. clownfish. green spotted mandarin.

04/12/2007, 02:16 PM	#39
musty baby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: over yonder Posts: 1,751	Personally, if you can even attempt to remove it manually you must have a line of sight. I would get an insulin syringe, some interceptor, and attempt to inject the isopod. Should kill it and allow easy removal. If there was a "miss" and you ended up spraying interceptor into the gill area of the fish it should be pushed right out with the flow. Minimal use of the interceptor, probably the maximum probability of killing the isopod. Certainly a better idea than ripping it alive out of the fish.

04/12/2007, 02:41 PM	#40
Tyler.L Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 405	this is raw...i am for the cut it a little and then take it out in a day or so...seems an easy route

04/12/2007, 04:23 PM	#41
Gordonious Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newark DE Posts: 3,393	I just want to try to pull it out or cut it if I have to, but I still don't know what antibiotics to use. If someone could recommend them and I also need to know how dangerous they are to use them around a reef tank. I know I should probably use the antibiotics in a bare bottom qt tank, but will the silicon in the edges of that tank absorb the antibiotic and not be aloud to be used for free inverts in the future, like a tank that has been used to treat copper or other heavy metals? Jon

04/12/2007, 04:47 PM	#42
G13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 810	Melafix is reef safe, i've tried it in my reef. Don't know if it's great at treating wounds but have heard on this and other sites about people having success with it.

04/12/2007, 04:57 PM	#43
mr pink floyd Moved On Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: west hartford, CT Posts: 3,480	melafix is great for treating wounds, saved my pygmy angel 2 times after gettign torn up by a territorial pseudo, both times his fins were nearly destroyed, and he had some decent bites and scraped on his sides. good luck

04/12/2007, 05:15 PM	#44
reefshadow Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central Washington Posts: 1,786	I would look into anesthetizing the fish with clove oil and surgically or semi-surgically remove the isopod. Is the isopod in the gill? It looks like it is just burrowed in the side of the fish. I'm not sure if the clove oil will effect the isopod, it could be a lucky side effect though I suppose. Really, what additional harm can you do? Leaving it seems like a sure death sentence, and obviously you can't introduce the fish into a display and risk additional contamination to your other fish. So I would get some sterile forceps or tweezers, 2 pairs hemostats and a scalpel, anesthesise the fish with the recommended dose and duration of clove oil, cut the opening wider if necessary with scapel and spread with hemostats, then get a good hold on the isopod and pull it out slowly and firmly, then treat in QT with a low dosage of maracyn 1 (erythromycin). The EM should keep your biofilter in the QT mostly intact, many folks (including me) have even used it in displays safely. Freshwater maracyn is cheaper and the same as the saltwater (the saltwater formula simply has a vitamin added). If your fish is hardy enough to be living for the present time with this large a parasite, minor surgery shouldn't be too additionally stressfull, and I really don't see any other option? If you can get another person involved with this it would be much easier. Beg them or pay them, lol. I would: 1. Anesthesize the fish in a large shallow container 2. have person 2 spread the opening wider with the hemostats and hold it open, after any necessary incision has been made 3. firmly grasp the isopod and pull it out 4. Remove fish to QT with low dose maracyn Gosh, good luck. That is gross! __________________ All Your Coral Are Belong To Us Current Tank Info: 30 Deep Blue shallow mixed rimless, MP10, Ecoxotic LED's, SCA 301 skimmer.

04/12/2007, 05:18 PM	#45
reefshadow Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central Washington Posts: 1,786	Oh, with EM, make sure you keep oxygen very high! It will also make a skimmer go nuts BTW __________________ All Your Coral Are Belong To Us Current Tank Info: 30 Deep Blue shallow mixed rimless, MP10, Ecoxotic LED's, SCA 301 skimmer.

04/12/2007, 05:21 PM	#46
Canarygirl Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,789	I can't see the thing! Where should I be looking?

04/12/2007, 06:21 PM	#47
andyjd International Nomad Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Dunedin, NZ Posts: 1,147	My wife is a Marine Biology student, I'll ask her if someone in Auburn University can give some advice. Andy

04/12/2007, 06:24 PM	#48
Icefire Seasoned reefer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In Quebec, Canada Posts: 3,653	Why buy any antibiotic? That some tweezer and remove it. __________________ Temp 80F, PH 8.5-8.0, Alk 6.8-7.2, Ca 430, Mg 1700, NO3 0-0.25, PO4 0.04, 34.4 PPT Lights @ 100% all others, 35% White Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 120lbs live rocks, Hydra52 2x120W, 2 MP40+ 1 MP10 @ 70%, Phosban 550 GFO+Carbon, 200W Heater, SWC Skimmer, Kalk ATO, 150 gpd RODI

04/12/2007, 06:30 PM	#50
Gordonious Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newark DE Posts: 3,393	Umm.... the thing might be gone! It has moved out of the fish(hopefully) or further into the fish. It is no longer visible from the outside. And it is hard to tell on this aqward shaped fish if it has just moved a bit. Canarygirl. Watch the very beginning of the video several times by clicking on the time line at the start. Jon