Reef tank electricity load? - Page 2

electrician · 04/29/2008, 11:26 PM

huh?...oc devices!! its there...look! the total load should not exceed 75 % of oc device..anyway he would be fine and u no it..bigger breaker and let r burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Justinandkrista · 04/30/2008, 12:04 AM

I didnt want to inslut you my looking it up. i asked if you could refernce the code section thats all. You run bigger breakers if you need to there's no sense in using 20 amp breakers on # 14. Then you are just asking for overcurrent problems, a fire or failure of equipment. But yea dont use a 20 on a #14. No one ever told him to just add a biger break so i dont know what your geting at by saying let it burn. Dont freak the guy out! All i mentioned is that he could very easily run a dedicated 20amp #12guage wire to the fish tank. And yes one 20amp would probly be enough for the draw of a 120gal fish tank. I just think having it in the living room with the tv, x box, posable vacume, all the other plugs ,maybe hes got lights on the curcuit to i dont know would be asking for a problem.

Justinandkrista · 04/30/2008, 12:06 AM

corals b 4 bills you have a sweet lookin tank y the way.

electrician · 04/30/2008, 12:26 AM

well u missed the part about being in a duplex..im tryin not to sound so rude here but i guess when i read back i sound that way..and im sorry to all...anyway! long story short it will hold it and if it dont it will show in the breaker not on fire...the wire will hold way more than the breaker the fix to his situition as i first said...amp it after running..or buy a circuit tracer at lowes ..he said theres was other rooms and such on it..these threads get outa control...i read it all and try to resolve but i guess im not !!...just as u would i would install 20 amp recep...load it and test..he'll be fine!! i was addding his watts he stated and the other guy ...still all round 20 amps..i load signs sometimes at 34A for 25A breaker and they been running for years....the big deal w these tanks is the lights..they have starters to reduce amp draw and after running they will be fine..like a pool pump motor the peak draw can be 325% above the rating at start up but the breaker is designed to handle ..even fusues if its the right one..TO ALL IF UR EVR IN DOUBT AMP IT! only way to measure ..

fareforce · 04/30/2008, 12:41 AM

Like I said earlier. I have 2 x 20 breakers for my tank. There were easy to run. Take a single piece of 12/3 with ground, and you have your shared neutral, seperate hots, and a shared ground. Run it to 20 amp gfci outlets, and then pop it then 20 amp breakers, and presto you are done. One piece of wire, two outlets, two breakers, and for less then $50 you have more than enough power on gfci's. =)

MJDiP · 04/30/2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

i load signs sometimes at 34A for 25A breaker and they been running for years

Not only is overloading a circuit a bad idea, it's unsafe. Household circuit breakers are not built to same grade as commercial/industrial breakers, thus they should be more carefully loaded. Plus, most of the loads for an aquarium will be pretty constant and unwavering.

That's pretty much all there is too it ... we could all keep trying to decipher each other's posts, but there's really only one rule: "it's better to be safe than sorry".

reefergeorge · 04/30/2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fareforce
Take a single piece of 12/3 with ground, and you have your shared neutral, seperate hots, and a shared ground. Run it to 20 amp gfci outlets, and then pop it then 20 amp breakers, and presto you are done. =)

That's a bad idea. Your neutral caries the same current as the hot. So you are trying to carry up to 40 amps on a 12 gauge wire.

reefergeorge · 04/30/2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MJDiP
Not only is overloading a circuit a bad idea, it's unsafe. Household circuit breakers are not built to same grade as commercial/industrial breakers, thus they should be more carefully loaded. Plus, most of the loads for an aquarium will be pretty constant and unwavering.

That's pretty much all there is too it ... we could all keep trying to decipher each other's posts, but there's really only one rule: "it's better to be safe than sorry".

I'm not sure if it's a problem throughout the country, but around here. Almost every House has the old federal pacific boxes. That are known for not tripping, and catching on fire. I would hook everything up, and use an amp clamp at the box o see what you are pulling.

BryGuy · 04/30/2008, 12:32 PM

The 75% rule of thumb isn't so much about the safety of the circuit but to prevent nuisance tripping. Breakers are thermo-magnetic devices. The magnetic aspect is for short circuit protection, the thermal part of it is what handles standard circuit protection (as current runs through the breaker it heats up a bi-metalic strip which bends towards the trip circuit, if the air around the breaker is hot it takes far less current to trip it).

You could be running at 90% of a breaker capacity in the winter time but come the first warm day of spring you won't be able to keep that circuit energized. 75% is a good bet based on looking at the temperature derate curves for the breakers in question.

One thing that imo is really bad from a wiring perspective but could work to your advantage is if that wall has any switched outlets. A lot of the time they get wired up to the breaker that drives the switch and not the circuit that is on the other half of the outlet which gives you the ability to draw from two breakers. Its worth looking at anyway.

Otherwise I'd use a GFCI extension cord to run something like the lighting from another breaker.

MJDiP · 04/30/2008, 01:23 PM

Bry, you're right about thermal/magnetics, I was just trying to not burn anyone's brain up with my explanation. Thanks!

fareforce · 04/30/2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reefergeorge
That's a bad idea. Your neutral caries the same current as the hot. So you are trying to carry up to 40 amps on a 12 gauge wire.

Hmm, well this is how mine was run. I was told by an electrician, and the electrical guy at lowes that this was the easiest way to do it. I was also told the netrual is basically a return line.

reefergeorge · 04/30/2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fareforce
Hmm, well this is how mine was run. I was told by an electrician, and the electrical guy at lowes that this was the easiest way to do it. I was also told the netrual is basically a return line.

You can, but you have to make sure they are on separate phases, and I would tie the two together so if one trips. So does the other. Also if for some reason you lose the neutral of the home-run. You end up with 240 volts going into your equipment.

fareforce · 04/30/2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reefergeorge
You can, but you have to make sure they are on separate phases, and I would tie the two together so if one trips. So does the other.

Seperate phases?

Also I didn't want them to be tied. That way if something trips it will only kill half my tank (lights and skimmer, or everything else)

Justinandkrista · 04/30/2008, 07:17 PM

lol this has gone on way far. Basicaly all he needs to do is run a new 12-2 dedicated to the tank, or set up the tank on the living room circuit and amp it out, if its ok leave it and maybe risk it triping. Am i right? that sounds like the only two solutions. Theres no need to talk 12-3 or what not use 12-2-2 if your worried about the nuetral soon 12-3 wont be able to be used for 2 circuits becuase of the new arc fault code. Bry thx for the cool info on breakers tho I have broke a few open to look inside, basicaly just a switch. reefergeorge sorry all you get to work on is federal pacific lol. lots of sparkys any IBEW union members.

04/30/2008, 12:41 AM	#30
fareforce Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Anchorage, AK (Alaska) Home of the frozen weasel Posts: 1,811	Like I said earlier. I have 2 x 20 breakers for my tank. There were easy to run. Take a single piece of 12/3 with ground, and you have your shared neutral, seperate hots, and a shared ground. Run it to 20 amp gfci outlets, and then pop it then 20 amp breakers, and presto you are done. One piece of wire, two outlets, two breakers, and for less then $50 you have more than enough power on gfci's. =) __________________ It's not my fault!!! It was an I.D.ten.T. thing.. Gosh!!!! (ID10T) --------------------------------------------- Click the red house to see my current build thread! Current Tank Info: Current Project. 110 gallon starphire.

04/30/2008, 12:32 PM	#34
BryGuy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 48	The 75% rule of thumb isn't so much about the safety of the circuit but to prevent nuisance tripping. Breakers are thermo-magnetic devices. The magnetic aspect is for short circuit protection, the thermal part of it is what handles standard circuit protection (as current runs through the breaker it heats up a bi-metalic strip which bends towards the trip circuit, if the air around the breaker is hot it takes far less current to trip it). You could be running at 90% of a breaker capacity in the winter time but come the first warm day of spring you won't be able to keep that circuit energized. 75% is a good bet based on looking at the temperature derate curves for the breakers in question. One thing that imo is really bad from a wiring perspective but could work to your advantage is if that wall has any switched outlets. A lot of the time they get wired up to the breaker that drives the switch and not the circuit that is on the other half of the outlet which gives you the ability to draw from two breakers. Its worth looking at anyway. Otherwise I'd use a GFCI extension cord to run something like the lighting from another breaker. Last edited by BryGuy; 04/30/2008 at 12:37 PM.

04/29/2008, 11:26 PM	#26
electrician Moved On Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: inverness,florida Posts: 32	huh?...oc devices!! its there...look! the total load should not exceed 75 % of oc device..anyway he would be fine and u no it..bigger breaker and let r burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

04/30/2008, 12:04 AM	#27
Justinandkrista Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Port Angeles,WA Posts: 691	I didnt want to inslut you my looking it up. i asked if you could refernce the code section thats all. You run bigger breakers if you need to there's no sense in using 20 amp breakers on # 14. Then you are just asking for overcurrent problems, a fire or failure of equipment. But yea dont use a 20 on a #14. No one ever told him to just add a biger break so i dont know what your geting at by saying let it burn. Dont freak the guy out! All i mentioned is that he could very easily run a dedicated 20amp #12guage wire to the fish tank. And yes one 20amp would probly be enough for the draw of a 120gal fish tank. I just think having it in the living room with the tv, x box, posable vacume, all the other plugs ,maybe hes got lights on the curcuit to i dont know would be asking for a problem.

04/30/2008, 12:06 AM	#28
Justinandkrista Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Port Angeles,WA Posts: 691	corals b 4 bills you have a sweet lookin tank y the way.

04/30/2008, 12:26 AM	#29
electrician Moved On Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: inverness,florida Posts: 32	well u missed the part about being in a duplex..im tryin not to sound so rude here but i guess when i read back i sound that way..and im sorry to all...anyway! long story short it will hold it and if it dont it will show in the breaker not on fire...the wire will hold way more than the breaker the fix to his situition as i first said...amp it after running..or buy a circuit tracer at lowes ..he said theres was other rooms and such on it..these threads get outa control...i read it all and try to resolve but i guess im not !!...just as u would i would install 20 amp recep...load it and test..he'll be fine!! i was addding his watts he stated and the other guy ...still all round 20 amps..i load signs sometimes at 34A for 25A breaker and they been running for years....the big deal w these tanks is the lights..they have starters to reduce amp draw and after running they will be fine..like a pool pump motor the peak draw can be 325% above the rating at start up but the breaker is designed to handle ..even fusues if its the right one..TO ALL IF UR EVR IN DOUBT AMP IT! only way to measure ..

04/30/2008, 01:23 PM	#35
MJDiP Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA (Buckhead) Posts: 175	Bry, you're right about thermal/magnetics, I was just trying to not burn anyone's brain up with my explanation. Thanks!

04/30/2008, 07:17 PM	#39
Justinandkrista Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Port Angeles,WA Posts: 691	lol this has gone on way far. Basicaly all he needs to do is run a new 12-2 dedicated to the tank, or set up the tank on the living room circuit and amp it out, if its ok leave it and maybe risk it triping. Am i right? that sounds like the only two solutions. Theres no need to talk 12-3 or what not use 12-2-2 if your worried about the nuetral soon 12-3 wont be able to be used for 2 circuits becuase of the new arc fault code. Bry thx for the cool info on breakers tho I have broke a few open to look inside, basicaly just a switch. reefergeorge sorry all you get to work on is federal pacific lol. lots of sparkys any IBEW union members.