please help!!!

[abulgin]

I posted a fact, and I was not picking any fight. Tom quoted my statement and contradict it by stating that nitrites are not toxic to marine fish. So I shouldn't have been a smart-@ss and for that I apoligize, but if you quote a poster's comment and contradicting it, aren't you asking for a debate?? It is a fact that the presence of nitrites is indicative of a problem and can be very harmful to fish. My only beef with Tom was that someone with his level of claimed experience should know enough not to mislead people by telling them not to worry about Nitrites.

Testing for nitrites is not a worthless effort. Rather, it's helpful for a few reasons. First, it helps you understand where your tank is in the cycle. Nitrite is produced because you've established bacteria that is eating ammonia (good thing). So, if you have nitrites in your tank, you're on your way to cycling. Second, as stated above, if you have nitrites it is a certainty that they came from the inability of your system to adequately process the nitrites into nitrates. You may show 0 ammonia but that doesn't mean that your tank isn't a death trap (or capable of becoming one). Because nitrites can have a deleterious effect on marine fish (albeit not as bad as ammonia), testing for nitrites may clue you in that a massive water changes and/or other steps are required.

[tmz]

Originally posted by abulgin
Lol. I'll make a deal with you Tom. Put your most expensive fish in a tank with just nitrites. If it dies, you'll pay me $50. If it lives, I'll pay you $100.

Where in the world did you read/discover that nitrites are not toxic to marine fish? That is just, plain and simple, bad information. Google "toxic nitritre fish".

Read this and try to learn something. You really need to spend some time learning before pasing guesses and incompleted information to others. You need to be doing more learning than teaching. this is not the first time you have posted inaccurate opinion as fact. Research before advising others. A bit of discipline and rigor in your statements is needed.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

Please note that the chlorides in salt water diminish the toxicity to a point where measuremenbt in a marine aquarium is not even recommended.

Also if you took the time to search nitrite in these forums you would find that most experienced marine aquarist know that nitrite is not an n issue worthy of serious concern. The amount would have to be so high as to defy reason in a natural process.

At least now I have a better understanding of your proclivity for trying to look smart even if it means diminishing others and in spite of the facts.

[tmz]

While nitrite measurement is a good indicator of cycle progress, it would take hundreds if not a thousand times as much to kill a fish in salt water as a frehwater fish. It causes chloride depletion in fish and there is just a ton of chloride in saltwater to make up for it. So yes , I guess ther is some remote toxicity but as a prctical matter wether in a qt tank or a fish only with live rock or even for invertebrates it is not toxic.

BTW Abulgin, In your first post you said nitrite was worse than ammonia,. In the second you said the reverse. Could you clarify your position?

[tmz]

albugin, since you suggested it , I did a web search for toxicity to fish nitrite. The first two listed articles pertain to freshwater fish and the third to freshwater ponds. Too bad you didn't tke the timee to actually read them because the fourth one petains to marine fish andis the one by Randy holmes Farely noted earlier.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by abulgin
I posted a fact, and I was not picking any fight. Tom quoted my statement and contradict it by stating that nitrites are not toxic to marine fish. So I shouldn't have been a smart-@ss and for that I apoligize, but if you quote a poster's comment and contradicting it, aren't you asking for a debate?? It is a fact that the presence of nitrites is indicative of a problem and can be very harmful to fish. My only beef with Tom was that someone with his level of claimed experience should know enough not to mislead people by telling them not to worry about Nitrites.

Abulgin--I disagree here--there is the language of debate and the language provoking an argument. You were using the latter.

Alot of times on here it is not what is said but how it is said or delivered that sets the stage for further productive discussion.

I made a mistake in another post--you corrected me with an article, not an insult---which i appreciated you doing that way because no one on here knows all the answers but collectively we know a good deal of them.

I think you are wasting everyones times here insulting Tom-- a guy with a proven record of being very knowledgable and experineced in this hobby and a guy who spends alot of his time on here helping others.

Having said that I also respect your experinece and expertise---and hope you will take what I have said in the spirit it was giiven------
isn't it time to "buy Tom a drink" and move on

[abulgin]

Tom--I apologize for being rude. I was having an off day yesterday. I also acknowledge that you are correct that nitrite is not as much of an issue in marine aquaria, and much less so than ammonia, but I do stand by my statements that nitrite can be toxic to marine fishes, does warrant concern, and is a reason to take action. I realize that nitrite concentrations would need to be fairly high to kill a fish, but nitrite is usually found with ammonia and, in combination, presents a bad situation. That said, while we all make mistakes, I don't believe that I've posted an opinion on RC that was "incorrect" as you state. I may have a difference of opinion, but I try not to post unless I have researched the issue or first-hand knowledge.

I honestly was not trying to provoke you or anyone else. like I said and as someone else pointed out, maybe the way I came across was not appropriate, although it was not intended as such.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by abulgin
Tom--I apologize for being rude. I was having an off day yesterday. I also acknowledge that you are correct that nitrite is not as much of an issue in marine aquaria, and much less so than ammonia, but I do stand by my statements that nitrite can be toxic to marine fishes, does warrant concern, and is a reason to take action. I realize that nitrite concentrations would need to be fairly high to kill a fish, but nitrite is usually found with ammonia and, in combination, presents a bad situation. That said, while we all make mistakes, I don't believe that I've posted an opinion on RC that was "incorrect" as you state. I may have a difference of opinion, but I try not to post unless I have researched the issue or first-hand knowledge.

I honestly was not trying to provoke you or anyone else. like I said and as someone else pointed out, maybe the way I came across was not appropriate, although it was not intended as such.

[tmz]

Albugin ,
Thankyou for your apology.
The main thing about nitrite is that many carry over worries from freshwater experience which are not warranted. Sure it's an indicator of cycle progress and yes it eventually leads to nitrate. But it takes around 350 ppm(probably a lot more to kill one) to effect a marine fish and only 1ppm to kill a fresh water fish. Test kits don't even go past 1ppm. For all practical purposes it is not toxic to marine fish. If a tank was producing over 300ppm nitrite the fish would long be dead from the ammonia that preceded it.
So if someone is running a fish only it's really not a problem; ammonia is, and excessive nitrate may cause nuisance algae.
In a qt with so many things to watch (ammonia, fish health, unfamiliar equipment,salinity,meds if needed) nitrite is something that needs no attention. If the ammonia is zero denitrification is adequate.
The ammonia producing bacteria are the first to the scene,followed by those that produce nitrite from ammonia,it then takes a good deal longer to establish anerobic bacteria that take nitrite to nitrate and the anoxic zone bacteria that take nitrate to free nitrogen. It just isn't necessary to wait for nitrite to go down or to control it . It really can't harm a marine fish via chloride depletion since there are so many chloride ions (19,000ppm or 54% of the total sg wieght) available. So taking care of ammonia is all you need to do.
Finally,I do not view discussion as a personal issue but will respond if I feel demeaned.It is not my intention to demean someone when I may contradict them.. I am ,however, mindful of the fact that people who read these threads are trying to be sucessful and like me most are trying to learn .I will always contradict facts presented which I think are wrong or seek clarification if a presentation confuses me.If you have a question I'll be happy to answer it and to say I don't know as the case may be. If I'm guessing or offering opinion I will say so. If it's a fact I'll present it as a fact.

Happy Reefing,
Tom

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by tmz
Albugin ,
Thankyou for your apology.
The main thing about nitrite is that many carry over worries from freshwater experience which are not warranted. Sure it's an indicator of cycle progress and yes it eventually leads to nitrate. But it takes around 350 ppm(probably a lot more to kill one) to effect a marine fish and only 1ppm to kill a fresh water fish. Test kits don't even go past 1ppm. For all practical purposes it is not toxic to marine fish. If a tank was producing over 300ppm nitrite the fish would long be dead from the ammonia that preceded it.
So if someone is running a fish only it's really not a problem; ammonia is, and excessive nitrate may cause nuisance algae.
In a qt with so many things to watch (ammonia, fish health, unfamiliar equipment,salinity,meds if needed) nitrite is something that needs no attention. If the ammonia is zero denitrification is adequate.
The ammonia producing bacteria are the first to the scene,followed by those that produce nitrite from ammonia,it then takes a good deal longer to establish anerobic bacteria that take nitrite to nitrate and the anoxic zone bacteria that take nitrate to free nitrogen. It just isn't necessary to wait for nitrite to go down or to control it . It really can't harm a marine fish via chloride depletion since there are so many chloride ions (19,000ppm or 54% of the total sg wieght) available. So taking care of ammonia is all you need to do.
Finally,I do not view discussion as a personal issue but will respond if I feel demeaned.It is not my intention to demean someone when I may contradict them.. I am ,however, mindful of the fact that people who read these threads are trying to be sucessful and like me most are trying to learn .I will always contradict facts presented which I think are wrong or seek clarification if a presentation confuses me.If you have a question I'll be happy to answer it and to say I don't know as the case may be. If I'm guessing or offering opinion I will say so. If it's a fact I'll present it as a fact.

Happy Reefing,
Tom

Tom I believe we are talking fowlr tank and cycling?
I would think in a mixed reef tank where you are going to add inverts that it would be wise to wait till your nitrates are down to zero?

[Aquarist007]

tmz--have a look at this thread--you may be able to offer an explanation --its a mysterious one
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1400557

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Tom I believe we are talking fowlr tank and cycling?
I would think in a mixed reef tank where you are going to add inverts that it would be wise to wait till your nitrates are down to zero?

H Scott,
Yes, that's correct. I agree that in a reef you need a full set of denitrication bacterial beds including those in the anoxic zones that turn nitrate into free nitrogen. I always wait at least two months to insure against a secondary mini cycle.
My main concern is that if folks worry about nitrite,particularly in qt tanks,it will delay qt and treatment and make managing a qt a very difficult and drawn out process and further discourage it's use..This is why I think it's important that the fact that nitrite is not toxic to marine fishes is widely known. When I set up for my first treatments a number of years ago, I went crazy with water changes trying to 0 out nitrite before I found out it wasn't necessary.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by tmz
H Scott,
Yes, that's correct. I agree that in a reef you need a full set of denitrication bacterial beds including those in the anoxic zones that turn nitrate into free nitrogen. I always wait at least two months to insure against a secondary mini cycle.
My main concern is that if folks worry about nitrite,particularly in qt tanks,it will delay qt and treatment and make managing a qt a very difficult and drawn out process and further discourage it's use..This is why I think it's important that the fact that nitrite is not toxic to marine fishes is widely known. When I set up for my first treatments a number of years ago, I went crazy with water changes trying to 0 out nitrite before I found out it wasn't necessary.

were on the same page as usuall Tom, I was just making sure that someone didn't come into the middle of your post without reading above and think it was ok to add a clean up crew while still showing nitrate or nitrite levels

[tmz]

Good point. Thanks.