PBT got ICH... In QT.... During Hypo... what now?????

[Taqpol]

Definitely not an expert, but it was my understanding that copper and antibiotics are especially bad for tangs. This is because their gut contains a lot of beneficial bacteria that helps with the digestion of plant matter (algae), just like a cow or other herbivore. Both copper and antibiotics can kill off this population of normal flora organisms.

Before anyone trusts me, can someone tell me if this is correct?

[sunfish11]

Originally posted by tmz
Lisa, yes to most of that. But not all nor even most healthy fish can beat ich on their own,in my opinion.. Some can.

I guess I kind of view like the flu in people. Certain strains can be fatal to the very young, very old, and people that are unhealthy and have compromised imune systems. Granted I have only been in this hobby about 4 years but I have yet to treat ich (with medications) and I have never lost a fish from it. Is it only luck or is ich worried about way too much? IMO it is just worried about way to much. Just my take on it.

Lisa

[tmz]

Originally posted by Taqpol
Definitely not an expert, but it was my understanding that copper and antibiotics are especially bad for tangs. This is because their gut contains a lot of beneficial bacteria that helps with the digestion of plant matter (algae), just like a cow or other herbivore. Both copper and antibiotics can kill off this population of normal flora organisms.

Before anyone trusts me, can someone tell me if this is correct?

I've heard speculation on that but no evidence. I have treated them with copper without any ill effect.

[tmz]

Originally posted by sunfish11
I guess I kind of view like the flu in people. Certain strains can be fatal to the very young, very old, and people that are unhealthy and have compromised imune systems. Granted I have only been in this hobby about 4 years but I have yet to treat ich (with medications) and I have never lost a fish from it. Is it only luck or is ich worried about way too much? IMO it is just worried about way to much. Just my take on it.

Lisa

I'm glad you haven't lost a fish. Ich is definately something to worry about. Hope you never witness a virulent outbreak take out a tank of healthy fish.

[ReefEnabler]

happy to report that as of this morning, I could only idetify ONE white spot that looked like ich on the PBT. His dorsal and anal fins are back to being fully extended and colorful... instead of all shriveled looking.

also the 'white cheek' part of his face is looking more white, instead of the pinkish color that it has been.

I'm really hoping that this is the last outbreak. I am doing my best to clean the tank as well as I can every night in the hopes I will siphon out as many parasites as possible even though the hypo will hopefully kill them.

[Playa-1]

That's gr8

[Nanz]

Sounds like success. Strange but my Powder Brown Tang also had Ich and I used Hypo for treatment. I also used a 20 gallon to QT so I did 50% water changes to keep the NH3 down. Im glad he is getting better.

How long has he been in hypo? I put my fish through an 8 week cycle before raising the salinity.

[ReefEnabler]

My PBT has been in full hypo for almost a week. I think it was last friday or saturday that the salinity reached the target 1.009.

It took about a week to lower salinity since I did it slow.

I basically have a 50G waterchange tank thats connected to my main system Sump.... It has a float valve to refill with RO water.

So when I started doing water changes for the QT, I isolated my waterchange tank from the main system, mixed new water to 1.023 salinity (LFS water match), and used that tank to fill my water change buckets.


It was nice and easy to lower salinity, since after draining water, it would refill with RODI water, so the water I was changing with slowly dropped to 1.009.

Now that I'm actually at 1.009 though I have to add salt back to the mixing tank every time I drain water or the salinity will get even lower.

[ReefEnabler]

Ok, finally snapped a few pictures of him, he was far less skittish about the camera this time:





looks like he still has a single solitary spot near his rear, up high by the dorsal fin, but overall I think he is looking alot better.

Let me know if you guys spot the early signs of any infection or stress from those photos since I am not sure what to look for.

Thanks,
Ryan

[tmz]

If it becomes reinfested which is unlikely in qt ,the fish will act lethargic at first, may rub and scratch on surfaces and show labored breathing .May also stop eating.All of these symptoms may appear before the spots. The spots are mostly exit wounds. So the parasite does it's damage before they show up.

[ReefEnabler]

ok, I just noticed about 5 or so new white spots on my tang. really sucks..... I must have a hypo - resistant strain????

Its been in stable hypo this entire time and I cant think of anything except that tomites hatched and reinfected the tang. I've been doing 10 gallon water changes every day and cleaning all the glass on the tank, and now this :P

I have not observed any behavioral changes, he is swimming strong and eating voraciously. I feed him a pinch of food several times a day in an attempt to fatten him up a bit, which seems to be working nicely. He seems fairly relaxed, today he even ate flakes out of my hand.


so what would you do? is it time to use copper????? raise salinity first????

[tmz]

Five spots is minimal particularly for a reinfestation. KEep close watch . Make sure hypo is at 1.009. If that doesn't get it I would move on to cupramine.

[Nanz]

Make sure your at 1.009.. try to calibrate your hydrometer to make sure of this.

The process takes at least 6 weeks and I think 8 weeks is the best. 8 weeks in hypo not 8 weeks since you started lowering the salinity.

There are three stages of ich
1)Trophont Phase: This is where the parasite gets into the fish itself and forms the hard cyst cover, which is what the aquarist will see as the actual white spot on the fish. ( This is what your seeing)

2)Tomont Phase: This is where the cyst breaks through the skin of the fish and will leave the fish’s body and land in the aquarium in places like the live rock and sand and will self develop itself.

3)Theront Stage: This is where the tomont will break apart and release theronts into the water column and is effectively at the free swimming stage where it can attach itself to other fish and the infection process will start again.

while at 1.009 the tomonts (the encysted, reproductive stage of the parasite) will burst from osmotic shock, killing them and breaking the life cycle of the parasite. This is how Hyposalinity works as a treatment. If your tank is at 1.009 then the Ich will eventually die. It cannot reproduce in 1.009. What I think your seeing is the Trophonts that were buried beneath the skin and fish coat.

Keep monitoring the fish and keep them in hypo for 8 weeks. At this point I would NOT use copper since the fish is already stressed from hypo. Even if you decided to use copper you would need to raise the salinity back to 1.025 and thus shock the fish again just before you begin to shock another time with copper. Stick with hypo it will work just be patient.

One of the main things that I always try to point out is that once the treatment is done, raise the salinity of the tank back up VERY slowly. I like to take 5 days with 2 very small salinity increases per day.

Here is a pick of mine after 8 weeks just before I started to raise the salinity.

[tmz]

The new spots may be part of the initial infestation, Their life cycle may have been slowed in hyposalinity or they may be new. There is no magic to 1.009and some strains of parasites seem to survive it. I've seen them disappear for a couple of weeks and then reemerge when the sg of the qt was rasied. It is simply as low as you can go without harming your fish.Marine fish have an internal salinity of about 1.008. They drink copious amounts of water to remain hydrated in their natural waters of 1.0264. While they have evovled to carry on this degree of osmoregulation,they can do quite well in lower sgs in the short run . They have no ability ,however, to cope with sgs lower than their internal sg and will be flooded with excess fluids in such conditions leading to loss of homeostastis and death. The length of the hypo process and resistant strains are two of the reasons why I prefer copper treatment.