corals won't stay alive! - Page 2

rtaylors3 · 01/09/2009, 03:36 PM

so....we went to the lfs today and the copper test there read 0 or undetectable. I know that there could still be undetectable levels of copper present but the guy there said that he suspected she didn't ahve enough live rock. She has somewhere around 30-40 lbs of live rock and I know that all depends on the density of it all and hte actuall surface area. She did purchase a copper test that we will do tonight and compare. Does it really matter how much live rock you have and your coral survival oh and not to mention the death of inverts?

CnLHolman01 · 01/09/2009, 04:47 PM

The correct amount of live rock to have in a reef tank is between a minimum of 1 pound per gallon and a maximum of 1.75 pounds per gallon (per http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=2)
I personaaly have about 2lbs of rock per gal.

I would think that the fish store is trying to sell you more lr. The point of having lr is to aid in filtration. If your tests for amonia, nitrate and nitrites are within normal range I wouldn't worry about the lr as it is doing its job.

It sounds like a copper issue to me also. Because it affects only your corals and inverts...some inverts maybe able to stand higher amounts of copper than others.

CnLHolman01 · 01/09/2009, 04:53 PM

per http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...rocedures.html
QT/Hospital Tank Clean Up With Copper
About the most frequently used medication that presents a cleaning problem to the aquarist is the use of copper to treat a disease. Copper will attach itself to plastics and glass. Even though the copper is so little that it can't be detected by a regular copper test kit, it is in high enough concentration to kill invertebrates that the aquarist may attempt to quarantine. Thus a quarantine tank turns into a hospital tank for copper treatments. The hospital tank can't be used for a QT for invertebrates, until it has been cleaned enough to remove the copper 'stuck' in the system.

If the copper treatment was successful and the fish is disease-free AND the tank will only be used to quarantine fish, then like the first case, there is no need to do any cleaning. The bio filter should be kept in the hospital tank or replaced, but NOT returned to the display tank.

If the hospital tank needs to be copper-free then there is a complex cleaning process to follow. However after experiments with snails, crabs, and Xenia, the following cleaning is good enough to put the copper in low enough concentration in the water to support these marine lifeforms. The bio filter must be thrown away. Toss away equipment including tubing, and anything that can't handle the cleaning process or is too difficult to make sure is properly cleaned.

1. A few hot tap water rinses (as hot as can be stood by the tank/equipment, and aquarist!)
2. Let tank/equipment cool off
3. Wash with Vinegar; 1:10 dilution of household/salad vinegar
4. Several tap water rinses
5. Wash with a mild liquid soap solution
6. Several tap water rinses
7. Wash with bleach; 1:10 dilution of household bleach
8. Several tap water rinses
9. Several RO/DI or distilled water rinses
10. Let go bone dry for a few days before use

may help if you have a tank to hold everything while you "clean" your system. You may have issues with the old LR becasue it has copper on it now and cleaning it will completely kill it and anything on it.

rtaylors3 · 01/11/2009, 08:25 AM

Thanks all. he did test the PH before the lights came on and it read 7.8-7.9. I haven't spoke to her in a couple of day so not ure if he tested the copper with the new test yet.

She did have the guy test for a few other things and he found she had a small amt of nitrate (expected) but not enough to cause any problems(can't remember the amt). About the live rock... some of the larger base rocks are very dense and heavy but not very large. When you look at it (i will have to get a pic) she seems to have enough to do the job and like you said her parameters say that a well.

There was something else he said that bothered me. He said that NO salt mix will supply the proper amt of trace element to support corals and that you need to supplement??? I have read diff! Any thoughts?

Denbf58 · 01/11/2009, 09:37 AM

does sound like copper you could try one of these javascript

opupWin1('/product/detailed_image.cfm?pCatId=10421&large=/images/Categoryimages/larger/lg_157346_32320P.jpg',%2050,%2050,%20596,%20531)

jim.l · 01/11/2009, 10:08 AM

Since you have a hang on filter, get an 8$ bag of seachem cuprisorb and drop it in there. If you have copper or other heavy metals it will turn color as it absorbs it. Keep renewing until you have no color changes for a month.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...egory=FIFMCHCR

Macimage · 01/11/2009, 11:58 AM

A polyfilter is also a good idea:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=10421

Good Luck!
Joyce

Everyones Hero · 01/11/2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rtaylors3
There was something else he said that bothered me. He said that NO salt mix will supply the proper amt of trace element to support corals and that you need to supplement??? I have read diff! Any thoughts?

He's just trying to sell you more stuff. One of the points of water changes is to replace the trace elements that get used up. Otherwise we'd all just be dosing Ca/Alk, Mg, & trace element supplements.

Your friend sounds a little like my co-worker. She comes in one week telling you about the new thing she bought, then she's in there the next week telling you that it died.

tims28gnano · 01/11/2009, 02:35 PM

from reading in other places, all signs point to copper!

reading throught the thread, your watersource kept popping into my head too!

good luck!

rtaylors3 · 01/14/2009, 10:05 AM

Here is a pic of the tank in question. It is a bad pic because I took it from my phone.

01/09/2009, 04:47 PM	#27
CnLHolman01 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Henderson, Nevada Posts: 79	The correct amount of live rock to have in a reef tank is between a minimum of 1 pound per gallon and a maximum of 1.75 pounds per gallon (per http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=2) I personaaly have about 2lbs of rock per gal. I would think that the fish store is trying to sell you more lr. The point of having lr is to aid in filtration. If your tests for amonia, nitrate and nitrites are within normal range I wouldn't worry about the lr as it is doing its job. It sounds like a copper issue to me also. Because it affects only your corals and inverts...some inverts maybe able to stand higher amounts of copper than others. __________________ Lori Current Tank Info: 135 gal display,

01/09/2009, 04:53 PM	#28
CnLHolman01 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Henderson, Nevada Posts: 79	per http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...rocedures.html QT/Hospital Tank Clean Up With Copper About the most frequently used medication that presents a cleaning problem to the aquarist is the use of copper to treat a disease. Copper will attach itself to plastics and glass. Even though the copper is so little that it can't be detected by a regular copper test kit, it is in high enough concentration to kill invertebrates that the aquarist may attempt to quarantine. Thus a quarantine tank turns into a hospital tank for copper treatments. The hospital tank can't be used for a QT for invertebrates, until it has been cleaned enough to remove the copper 'stuck' in the system. If the copper treatment was successful and the fish is disease-free AND the tank will only be used to quarantine fish, then like the first case, there is no need to do any cleaning. The bio filter should be kept in the hospital tank or replaced, but NOT returned to the display tank. If the hospital tank needs to be copper-free then there is a complex cleaning process to follow. However after experiments with snails, crabs, and Xenia, the following cleaning is good enough to put the copper in low enough concentration in the water to support these marine lifeforms. The bio filter must be thrown away. Toss away equipment including tubing, and anything that can't handle the cleaning process or is too difficult to make sure is properly cleaned. 1. A few hot tap water rinses (as hot as can be stood by the tank/equipment, and aquarist!) 2. Let tank/equipment cool off 3. Wash with Vinegar; 1:10 dilution of household/salad vinegar 4. Several tap water rinses 5. Wash with a mild liquid soap solution 6. Several tap water rinses 7. Wash with bleach; 1:10 dilution of household bleach 8. Several tap water rinses 9. Several RO/DI or distilled water rinses 10. Let go bone dry for a few days before use may help if you have a tank to hold everything while you "clean" your system. You may have issues with the old LR becasue it has copper on it now and cleaning it will completely kill it and anything on it. __________________ Lori Current Tank Info: 135 gal display,

01/11/2009, 09:37 AM	#30
Denbf58 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: selden N.Y. Posts: 885	does sound like copper you could try one of these javascriptopupWin1('/product/detailed_image.cfm?pCatId=10421&large=/images/Categoryimages/larger/lg_157346_32320P.jpg',%2050,%2050,%20596,%20531) __________________ Life is good Current Tank Info: 75gal reef ready koralia 3, 30g sump, 4b 48" t5s lighting, 29g reef with breeding pair clowns 55g reef 55g freshwater

01/11/2009, 10:08 AM	#31
jim.l Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SE. Florida Posts: 608	Since you have a hang on filter, get an 8$ bag of seachem cuprisorb and drop it in there. If you have copper or other heavy metals it will turn color as it absorbs it. Keep renewing until you have no color changes for a month. http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...egory=FIFMCHCR __________________ Jim Current Tank Info: 150 reef, soft, hard, SPS

01/09/2009, 03:36 PM	#26
rtaylors3 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: AL Posts: 224	so....we went to the lfs today and the copper test there read 0 or undetectable. I know that there could still be undetectable levels of copper present but the guy there said that he suspected she didn't ahve enough live rock. She has somewhere around 30-40 lbs of live rock and I know that all depends on the density of it all and hte actuall surface area. She did purchase a copper test that we will do tonight and compare. Does it really matter how much live rock you have and your coral survival oh and not to mention the death of inverts?

01/11/2009, 08:25 AM	#29
rtaylors3 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: AL Posts: 224	Thanks all. he did test the PH before the lights came on and it read 7.8-7.9. I haven't spoke to her in a couple of day so not ure if he tested the copper with the new test yet. She did have the guy test for a few other things and he found she had a small amt of nitrate (expected) but not enough to cause any problems(can't remember the amt). About the live rock... some of the larger base rocks are very dense and heavy but not very large. When you look at it (i will have to get a pic) she seems to have enough to do the job and like you said her parameters say that a well. There was something else he said that bothered me. He said that NO salt mix will supply the proper amt of trace element to support corals and that you need to supplement??? I have read diff! Any thoughts?

01/11/2009, 11:58 AM	#32
Macimage Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Quartz Hill Posts: 4,078	A polyfilter is also a good idea: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=10421 Good Luck! Joyce

01/11/2009, 02:35 PM	#34
tims28gnano Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jones Beach Posts: 343	from reading in other places, all signs point to copper! reading throught the thread, your watersource kept popping into my head too! good luck!

01/14/2009, 10:05 AM	#35
rtaylors3 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: AL Posts: 224	Here is a pic of the tank in question. It is a bad pic because I took it from my phone.