*Need Help.. Ich? - Movie*

[chatyak]

I have also read that ich is not always present in the tank which is a common myth... once eradicated it is gone... as a test was conducted on stressed fish and they did not develop ich in an "ich free" tank... so once this QT is done with... all incoming specimens will be put in the QT tank for hypo and with UV sterilization.

[loyalrogue]

Freed has obviously done a lot of homework on Ich.
Every answer has been 100% factual and to the point without being demeaning to those with less knowledge.
Posters like Freed make this site worth visiting.

If I could add anything to the discussion it would be that UV has never been shown to affect Ich in any setting before due to the nature of it's lifecycle and the extremely short period of time that it is free-swimming.
In other words, UV is a waste of time and money concerning the treatment of Ich.

The most commonly proven and effective treatments are hyposalinity, copper, and the tank transfer method (TTM) which is 100% effective against so-called hypo and copper resistant strains.

[chatyak]

Thanks loyalrouge.

I agree with that. I did want to try the UV as well though because I have read posts where people swore by them and even helped with algae problems in the main tank, so it is something I considered to have. Can't hurt anyway, one extra prevent measure. I do know though, that it is not a cure all-end all by any means and will not cure the ich attached to the host.

It can though help with any free swimming organisms, bacteria, or protozoa.

I am getting a QT ready now and will be doing hypo for 6 weeks along with UV treatment. Should I also use copper while doing hypo?

[jenglish]

Originally posted by chatyak
Thanks loyalrouge.


It can though help with any free swimming organisms, bacteria, or protozoa.

I am getting a QT ready now and will be doing hypo for 6 weeks along with UV treatment. Should I also use copper while doing hypo?

UV can theoretically sterilize crypto but not likely at the strength and contact time in a hobby sterilizer. UV will help with free floating algae and does a good job of breaking down organics for skimming I hear (never tried that part myself)

Do NOT combine hypo and copper, the combination is nearly sure to kill your fish. 6 weeks fishless fallow in your DT will get most strains but I believe 8 weeks is the 99.9% mark. Record I know of is 72 days but that was cold water. HTH

[loyalrogue]

No, do not combine treatment methods.
Choose the one method that is most appropriate for you and stick to the guidelines until completion for best results.
If necessary, you can run different treatments concurrently to treat multiple parasites/diseases, but I would not run treatments simultaneously unless you have fully researched the possible risks first.

[chatyak]

Alright. I will try hypo for 6 weeks while utilizing UV on a slow flow rate. UV is rated for 1500gph max and my pump is 250gph.. so lots of contact time to help alongside the hypo.

I hope my mandarin is ok through it all....

[jenglish]

can you get commercially produced pods in your area? They would not live long in hypo but should live long enough for the mandarin to eat. Mandarins can live pretty long without food, haven't you seen them at the fish store?

[chatyak]

Originally posted by jenglish
can you get commercially produced pods in your area? They would not live long in hypo but should live long enough for the mandarin to eat. Mandarins can live pretty long without food, haven't you seen them at the fish store?

no only online and tigger pods at that (red ones).. it eats bloodworms though.

this will give me a chance to redo the sand and rockwork and grow out thousands of pods

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Originally posted by Freed
Really? None of mine ever scratch.

Ummmm, Yes. An occasional scratch is normal especially with Tangs and Wrasses.


chatyak,
I prefer Hyposalinity. I have used it many times. You can drop the salinity quickly, within a couple of days. A refractometer is a must here.. You need to be accurate as possible. After a month, bring the salinity up slowly!
What kind of biological filtration are you using in your QT? I keep a sponge filter or a few bioballs in the sump of my tank in case I want to set up my qt for a new fish. Even with this I do small daily water changes. Without that bacteria, you will need to do large daily water changes to reduce ammonia.
Like the others said, you need to remove all the fish. The Mandrin maybe a little more resistant to ich, but it is not immune. Leaving it in the tank is leaving a 'host' for the ich and though the Mandrin may never show signs of ich, he is keeping it alive.
Ich can be eradicated.. It is NOT in every system. I have two parasite/disease free tanks. Ich NEEDS a host to survive, removing the host will kill the parasite.
Good luck

[chatyak]

Originally posted by BTTRFLYGRL
Ummmm, Yes. An occasional scratch is normal especially with Tangs and Wrasses.


chatyak,
I prefer Hyposalinity. I have used it many times. You can drop the salinity quickly, within a couple of days. A refractometer is a must here.. You need to be accurate as possible. After a month, bring the salinity up slowly!
What kind of biological filtration are you using in your QT? I keep a sponge filter or a few bioballs in the sump of my tank in case I want to set up my qt for a new fish. Even with this I do small daily water changes. Without that bacteria, you will need to do large daily water changes to reduce ammonia.
Like the others said, you need to remove all the fish. The Mandrin maybe a little more resistant to ich, but it is not immune. Leaving it in the tank is leaving a 'host' for the ich and though the Mandrin may never show signs of ich, he is keeping it alive.
Ich can be eradicated.. It is NOT in every system. I have two parasite/disease free tanks. Ich NEEDS a host to survive, removing the host will kill the parasite.
Good luck

Thank you for the words. I do have a sponge filter with an airline tube connected to it. It has been in the main tank for about a week now so it should be ready.

I'm going to try and transfer the fish today. There is so much going on! Redoing the fish room, new sump, new piping, new shipments coming in, new canopy, new lights, ICH disease..


I don't see the tang scratching today or the white dots, but I'm not taking any chances.

Hypothetically, would it harm healthy fish to go with hypo?
getting overloaded

[Freed]

Hypo won't hurt healthy fish.

[chatyak]

Well maybe luck or not, but I cancelled the uv sterilizer on my order so no UV for now.. I'll stick with hypo for 6 weeks.

[Freed]

Do you have a properly calibrated refractometer?

[fender4string]

+1 on needing the refractometer. Like Freed mentioned earlier during hypo keep the salinity at 1.009. It can't go any lower though or else at that point it starts to become harmful to the fish (I believe).

If you are able to to do it, leave your tank fallow longer. At least 8 weeks. There was an in depth discussion about completely removing ich from the aquarium on the FOWLR forum here. The general consensus is that it would be nearly impossible to do so and the best way to keep ich at bay is to bolster the immune systems of your fish with proper diet.

Also, garlic really doesn't do anything for the immune system of fish? That's the first time I've heard that. Not to sound too skeptical or challenging but I'm always curious when I hear a counter argument. Especially about something that I thought was considered fact. Any more input on this Freed, for curiosity's sake?

[Freed]

There has been alot of conjecture and rumor/myth about garlic boosting a fishes immune system but I have yet to see a scientifically documented and proven article on the fact. If anyone knows of one, please post it.

[loyalrogue]

Originally posted by Freed
There has been alot of conjecture and rumor/myth about garlic boosting a fishes immune system but I have yet to see a scientifically documented and proven article on the fact. If anyone knows of one, please post it.

Ditto.
I see lots of claims and "home remedies" repeated over and over again as "facts" without any real scientific evidence to back them up.
(Which is probably the basis for half the cure-all products on the LFS shelves.)

To the best of my knowledge, garlic is just another home remedy based on anecdotal evidence.
Like Freed, I'd be very eager to read any documented studies on garlic that prove otherwise.

[Freed]

Yep, I used garlic, or cayenne pepper, or thyme, or basil and my ich disappeared because it MUST make the fish immune to the ich(not knowing that the ich will disappear on its own after a few days). Something like this was then spread around as gospel. Not saying garlic doesn't boost a fishes immunity but I have never seen proof of it.

[chatyak]

I just spent the last 3.5 hours chasing 2 clowns, a tang, and a speedy mandarin around the tank.. the only way I was able to do it was to remove 85% of the rock in the tank and throw it in a bin for the time being.

I do not want to do that again!

All fish in QT. Only snails, starifsh, and crabs in tank.

Yes I have a properly calibrated refractometer. Right now QT is at 1.025. What is the game plan from here?

On a side note, I want to redo the aquascaping in my tank and change out the sand. What's the best way to tackle this? My sand bed is 2".

I don't even have to change out the whole thing, I just want to take a bit off and put a new kind of sand on the top layer.


Also, since I am NOT treating with copper yet, can I put one live rock or two in the QT tank to let the tang graze on the algae and help with filtration?

[Freed]

Drop the salinity down to 1.009SG over a couple of days and keep it there by adding fresh water a couple of times daily to replace evaporation. Mark a line on the tank once you get the water SG where you want it. Add fresh water up to that line a couple times a day and that's all you have to do. Keep an eye on ammonia and pH as well.

[chatyak]

Originally posted by Freed
Drop the salinity down to 1.009SG over a couple of days and keep it there by adding fresh water a couple of times daily to replace evaporation. Mark a line on the tank once you get the water SG where you want it. Add fresh water up to that line a couple times a day and that's all you have to do. Keep an eye on ammonia and pH as well.

Alright. What about the tank reaquascaping and sand? Can I remove part of the sand and put new sand down?

[fender4string]

Thanks for the thoughts guys-I appreciate it.

Good luck Chatyak! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

[Freed]

Forgot to mention, you may have to do a water change here and there if your ammonia goes up so keep an eye on that.

[chatyak]

Originally posted by Freed
Forgot to mention, you may have to do a water change here and there if your ammonia goes up so keep an eye on that.

I'll test ammonia twice a week (also have a seachem ammonia arrow reader thing).

Thanks for the compliments! I'll keep this thread updated...

Can someone help me with my question about the sand? I want to upgrade to a bigger granule size.

I also want to get rid of some of the algae on my rocks while the fish are not in the tank.

Can I fill up a bucket of salt water and dump the rocks in there and leave them in darkness for a month? Do I water change the bucket?

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I would test ammonia daily just to be safe. And though it is a PITA, daily water changes regardless of ammonia being present is always a good idea. I like to do big water changes and syphon the bottom of the tank daily. But then I am a fanatic, so I've been told
Leaving the tank fallow for 8 weeks is a good idea..Ich can be eradicated by leaving the tank fallow. Just be sure to qt all new fish (and corals) before putting them in your main tank from now on so you don't have to do this again

[chatyak]

Originally posted by BTTRFLYGRL
I would test ammonia daily just to be safe. And though it is a PITA, daily water changes regardless of ammonia being present is always a good idea. I like to do big water changes and syphon the bottom of the tank daily. But then I am a fanatic, so I've been told
Leaving the tank fallow for 8 weeks is a good idea..Ich can be eradicated by leaving the tank fallow. Just be sure to qt all new fish (and corals) before putting them in your main tank from now on so you don't have to do this again

I did QT them and saw no signs of ich after 4 weeks, actually months. But I didn't QT with hypo.. just normal params.

Should I QT all incoming fish in Hypo anyway?

I just noticed the beginning of it now.