refugium questions

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Whys
Oh p-leassseee. My mantra is Zen, not physics. In Zen, one is exalted by what they do NOT know, not why they THINK they know.

Your explanation still isn't working for me. What are the odds your chaeto absorbs nitrates and phosphates faster than your fuge turns over? Just how slow is your fuge flow? Drip acclimation slow?

the whole concept of chaeto in a refugium is that it is a macro algae the outstrips most other algae in adsorption of phosphates and nitrates--other algae can't compete as in the display tank

understood is that you the reefer has to take steps to help eliminate phoshates and nitrtates in your system
eg excellent flow in the display tank
limiting the amount of flake food you feed and rinsing off frozen food
once a week taking a turkey baster the the surface of the substrate and reef rock
foster the growth of corraline which takes up realestate for other algae that can't compete
biweekly water changes
using ro/ di water etc etc.

I used to keep the flow limited through the dsb but since being involved somewhat on the dsb model development I now keep the flow through both refugiums at 300 gph and the other part of the flow through the sump/skimmer at 300 gph(because I know that is what my skimmer handles)

[Aquarist007]

I am sure this article and the link to the refugiums and macro algae thread will instil the zest for debate in you Whys

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ides/index.php

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...3#post12127813

warning--its very very long

[evsalty]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Ideally you should split your drain water so that the refugium receives raw water from the tank and so does the skimmer.

The chaeto macroalgae need nitrates and phosphates and there adsorption of them is what helps keep their level down in the display tank.
Skimmers take out dissolved organic compounds far more then they do phosphates and nitrates.

That's why it is a good idea to have the refugium and skimmer working together as a filter team

Just FYI but you contradict your own statement in the same post. Since the skimmer and the refuge do not remove the same things why would you want to divide the water between the two. You even run the same GPH thru your two fuges that you run thru the skimmer compartment. I am sure it woks as there are many ways to make a reef tank work. I myself have my drains go into a small first chamber that also houses my skimmer pump and allows my skimmer to skim about 70% of the water that goes thru the sump and never recircs back thru the skimmer. Then the water goes thru my first bubble trap then the fuge then the second BT and returned to the DT. I might do a standalone fuge to have a slow fuge but that water would come from after the skimmer.

[Whys]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
I am sure this article and the link to the refugiums and macro algae thread will instil the zest for debate in you Whys

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ides/index.php

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...3#post12127813

warning--its very very long

Ah hah! You can't fool me Capn. I've seen The Princess Bride. I know both those cups are poisoned.

Why would I want to read when I'd rather argue?

I agree that algae absorbs nitrates and phosphates and that growing it in the fuge relieves any pressure for it to grow in the display. But I think it's more of an establishment issue, not locality and concentration. The algae in your fuge doesn't have greater access to nutrients, it simply out competes your display. I agree that's a good thing, but I disagree with the notion of a fuge as a "lock box" for nutrients. At 300 gph, it's just not possible for the algae to keep up with diffusion, IMO. Nor is it necessary. The fuge can eat it the second time around before algae can establish itself elsewhere. Especially if you have a clean up crew in the display.

Just my 2 cents Capn. I don't have any links to make my point. Just deductive reasoning.

[Aquarist007]

You win--I've had enough of arguing or debating----this is not my idea of fun on this site. I have been here from the beginning to help others and learn in the process myself

[bbl_nk]

Simmer down kids...in the banter back-and-forth, we've lost sight of helping out a reefer in need.

[Whys]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
You win

This time I really am confused. You think I'm out to win? I don't argue without purpose, but there is no personal competition here, I assure you. I'm explaining my reasoning regarding my conclusions. Based on what I'm reading, your explanation does not entirely make sense to me. Is it wrong of me to point out what I believe might be erroneous conclusions? Is it wrong of me to explain why I believe those conclusions might be erroneous?

If the nitrates and phosphates do not diffuse into the water column faster than your algae can eat it, then I'd like to know why. You could be right Capn, but right now, I don't believe it. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Peace.

[Nanook]

Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.

[cdbias2]

I disagree with WHY's because I dont think water has to go slow past the cheato in order for the stuff to pull out nitrates, but I also disagree with the Captain for not caring about detrius building up in your refugium.
Other than than that, I enjoy the debate but it's no fun if we upset someone.
As for the original question as to whether the skimmer comes first, I've seen another thread about the same topic that went on for very long.
The consesus was that skimmers dont kill the pods but I dont think that's true for all skimmers.
This same debate applies for water having to go slow past the skimmer in order for it to function at it's best. I dont believe that either.
Both scenerios are hard to prove. That being the case, I dont think it matters because if it did, that would've been the proof and we would have seen that posted prior.

[KarlBob]

Yes, you should be able to grow gracilaria instead of chaetomorpha. Being able to feed it to your fish is a nice benefit.

Some people still support the use of caulerpa, but I suggest thorough research if you're leaning in that direction. Some forms of caulerpa are illegal in some areas (particularly California), and it has a reputation for being extremely persistent and very difficult to permanently remove when it's no longer wanted.

[Whys]

Oh I do think fast flow works. I just don't think the nutrients stay put. They go around and around and around. But that just might be the thoughts in my head.

As to skimmers, you're good to point that out cdbias. I've been a part of that debate as well and it too can be interesting. I have a Tunze nano, it says it's "gentle" on pods. What ever that means. I think mostly its just smaller.

If the good Capn would return to the table, I promise not to direct my own mental consternation in his direction. I do appreciate what he adds to the conversation and will leave it at simply saying that I respectfully disagree.

No reason to bring an end to what is otherwise a good thread.

[cdbias2]

I think the cheato can only soak up so much no matter how much or how little water passes by.