resealing a glass tank ? - Page 2

jmkarcz · 09/16/2009, 10:37 PM

I think we al agree that the reason most rebuilds fails is that those people did not spend the time to clean, strip old silicone well enough, remover the remaining trace, and even remove oily films that prevent the bond we are talking about. It takes an extremly high degree of personal discipline to not just call something "good enough" and hold out for another 2 hours of strip and edge prep. In the nearly 16 years Ive been at this, I have not run into anyone in my group of friends that is that patient...

I second the "understand your consequences" above. I feel that if you have not invested the sweat equity that pays for resealing a tank, and you shrug out on what everyone repeated about doing it right, you deserve to have water on your floor, your livestock or corals die, damage to your home and or at the very least funky green algae from using the wrong silicone as my friend did. (he also used picture frame glass to build his baffles because he did not want to wait till Monday to call a glass shop - Home Depot was open now.)

Some people rush a project and do not do it correctly. I agree with khanb31 in that you need to do your research. The worst you could do is cut out the panel... revisit it in a few days and strip... revisit it about 7 more times, then take it to a glass shop and have them do it... do the grunt work yourself, let then do the final prep and install. It's the icing on the cake, but it will be done correctly.

Do it once, but do it right, don't stick someone else with your lemon.

khanb31 · 09/17/2009, 07:32 PM

+1 to jmkarcz's post.

Im really glad though that the guys at 3 different aquarium manufacturers were willing to share some of their knowledge. I got most of the ideas and correct directions from them. Things like, Instead of using my finger to spread the silicone into the seams, use a plastic spoon! I got my seams looking AWESOME using those. They are HUGE, but wow do they have a nice look to them.

Patience is something that is not easy to come by. It took me 2 months (while i was NOT working full time), to build the system I have now. 3/4 of that time was spent on only the display. Some others arent willing to put that amount of time into it. My situation was different though. I wasnt working and I had NO money. you either have one or the other and I just happened to have time.

I bookmarked this thread. .....i dont ever feel like typing all of that again. lol

jmkarcz · 09/18/2009, 08:42 AM

Wow, nearly 2700 post and that was my first +1, Thanks!

Maybe this will help also.

Heat your plastic spoon up with a lighter or torch slightly... be careful not to burn it, and squeeze it to make it fold over and become more narrow... like rolling your tongue like a newspaper. I have done this with a old Metal spoon - I clean it after it hardens, the silicone peels right off.

Also, I used to work at a brick yard. One of the tricks we gave people for fixing their chimney cap after they were mortared in, included HAND TROWELING silicone into a web at the top between the flue and the cement cap. You should not be so concerned about the words Flue and Cement cap here, but hand troweling silicone... After you apply your silicone, but before you tool it, if you wet your hands or tool with ""soapy water" the silicone reportedly does not stick to it and make a big mess. I've tried this and it worked. I do not frequently use that much silicone as to get my whole hand into it, but it works on tools. Get a canning/peanut jar and put a bit of liquid dish soap into it with enough water that it s still slippery. Drop you spoon that you use for tooling in there till your ready, and dunk often.

ONLY do this after the silicone has been applied - I wait till the bead is run and sandwiched. The strongest part of the joint is between the glasses, the web is cosmetic anyway, and the silicone "rolls" in front of th spoon/tool like snow in front of a snowplow. When it is cured, then I cleanup what I don't want

I also made myself a quick tool with 2 razor blades that shave either side of the web at a regular interval, The blades rusted ince I used it last or I would photo it. It works BEST if you press firmly with your rolled spoon to create a metal to glass point where the silicone diminishes uniformly from start yo finish, I adjust the blade to follow that line, so excess is trimmed.

And above all... don't play with the silicone. be deliberate in what you do and then be done... don't pu$$y foot around with it. it you don't get it on the first pass, working with silicone has taught me you will have only a 5% chance on the second and a 1% on the third, and forget it then after, your just making a mess of things... the first pass is everything.

coralnut99 · 09/18/2009, 09:12 AM

OK, here's a +2.

The plastic spoon's a great idea. I readily admit to being a "finger seamer", but no more!

Fabulous advice about "not playing with the silicone". I doubt you'll ever see a seam that's been run over twice and still looks neat. I guess some silicones and sealants can be more forgiving, but the standard clear silicone most will come across just won't let you do it twice. This is probably the #1 reason I suggest people try their hand at a small glass box first. It gives you an idea of what your in for when you try to "fix" that seam by running over it again.

If you do enough work with the stuff, a "power-assisted" caulking gun can be great to have. I decided to invest in a Ryobi cordless caulking gun, since I have lots of work to do on the outside of the house this year, and squishing miles of caulk from a manual gun while on a ladder pushed me to the lazy side. Having to lay down 6 foot long silicone beads for the family room build, well let's just call that a bonus.

Great thread!

chicagophil · 09/18/2009, 09:15 AM

This Glass talk makes me want to make my own tank.

Lucky for me Khanb is Local to Chicago.

khanb31 · 09/18/2009, 05:56 PM

jmkarcz- LOL, well im glad I was your first. Im honored actually because i really look up to those with a lot of experience. Thats why old people are awesome! (no im not calling you old...)

i also agree with the 1 pass thing. Before I put my tank together, I siliiconed some baffles and test pieces together to ensure that I knew how to use my spoon correctly. Practice makes perfect.

Ive also tested out the water myth. It works decently. I dont consider it necessary by any means though.

OH- and I have pictures of the water droplets on the different edges of glass. I was able to recreate my results so everyone can see them.

Now....If I could just get the picture onto my computer.....hmmm

khanb31 · 09/20/2009, 11:46 AM

Alright!!

going through 15 mins of BS to get the camera to work and actually give up the pictures that I had taken....

I have a picture of my test piece with the water droplets on it.

As you can see, The droplets on the left side of the pane are ALOT smaller and condensed than the ones on the middle. This was the best picture I got with the crappy camera I had so please bare with me. The ones in the middle had completely started to fold more and more into the pane of glass.

Each section was cleaned with a brand new razor blade VERY thoroughly. There was silicone on the left edge prior to me dropping the water on it. I took the silicone off right before I did this test. I went from the top left drop down the pane and then into the middle of the pane with the dropper.

I would conclude from this....that there IS a difference in surface friction coefficients which would directly correlate with the silicone being in that location.

Pretty interesting no? I like to think that this could be applicable on a general basis, but I have no way of knowing about the different types of glass. Im doing this test on 1/2" starfire glass that I have no idea the quality or manufacture.

Everyone that is curious about whether or not this test is applicable to whatever tank your planning on re-seaming should do this very simple test to have a more educated decision about your approach. This could lead to a really good understanding of how youd need to go about reseaming your tank.

Jim

JTL · 09/20/2009, 11:54 AM

Takes a lot more than a razor blade to clean off silicone. Steel wool and a quart of acetone will do it. Works every time.

khanb31 · 09/20/2009, 10:51 PM

JTL - Thats what all of my posts and research/tests were trying to confirm. Whether or not there was silicone embedded in the top surface of the glass prior to any edge preparations. Also, even though there is absolutely no silicone visible to the naked eye, this shows that you still need to deal with it appropriately (i.e. Edge preparations). Which, JTL, you believe that steel wool and acetone takes care of this issue. I took it a step further and wanted the top layer to be taken off.

I will try your method on some scrap glass when I get a chance. I am curious to see how far someone has to go to get rid of the silicone barrier.

JTL, What type of steel wool are you using? Anything in particular? I guess it also depends on the type of silicones that were used on the old glass as well. I know what type I was working with.

Do you know the names of the tank manufacturers' tanks that you were dealing with and using this method on? I imagine you have used it on a whole slew of different tanks.

This could be a very interesting experiment.

09/18/2009, 09:12 AM	#29
coralnut99 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Bushkill, PA Posts: 3,632	OK, here's a +2. The plastic spoon's a great idea. I readily admit to being a "finger seamer", but no more! Fabulous advice about "not playing with the silicone". I doubt you'll ever see a seam that's been run over twice and still looks neat. I guess some silicones and sealants can be more forgiving, but the standard clear silicone most will come across just won't let you do it twice. This is probably the #1 reason I suggest people try their hand at a small glass box first. It gives you an idea of what your in for when you try to "fix" that seam by running over it again. If you do enough work with the stuff, a "power-assisted" caulking gun can be great to have. I decided to invest in a Ryobi cordless caulking gun, since I have lots of work to do on the outside of the house this year, and squishing miles of caulk from a manual gun while on a ladder pushed me to the lazy side. Having to lay down 6 foot long silicone beads for the family room build, well let's just call that a bonus. Great thread! __________________ Why can't my wife see this stuff as an investment? Current Tank Info: way too much to list, and still adding more!

09/20/2009, 11:54 AM	#33
JTL Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Venice Island, FL Posts: 2,532	Takes a lot more than a razor blade to clean off silicone. Steel wool and a quart of acetone will do it. Works every time. __________________ John 100 gallon DT and 50 gallon sump with refugium. Reefbreeders Photon V2+.

09/16/2009, 10:37 PM	#26
jmkarcz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,728	I think we al agree that the reason most rebuilds fails is that those people did not spend the time to clean, strip old silicone well enough, remover the remaining trace, and even remove oily films that prevent the bond we are talking about. It takes an extremly high degree of personal discipline to not just call something "good enough" and hold out for another 2 hours of strip and edge prep. In the nearly 16 years Ive been at this, I have not run into anyone in my group of friends that is that patient... I second the "understand your consequences" above. I feel that if you have not invested the sweat equity that pays for resealing a tank, and you shrug out on what everyone repeated about doing it right, you deserve to have water on your floor, your livestock or corals die, damage to your home and or at the very least funky green algae from using the wrong silicone as my friend did. (he also used picture frame glass to build his baffles because he did not want to wait till Monday to call a glass shop - Home Depot was open now.) Some people rush a project and do not do it correctly. I agree with khanb31 in that you need to do your research. The worst you could do is cut out the panel... revisit it in a few days and strip... revisit it about 7 more times, then take it to a glass shop and have them do it... do the grunt work yourself, let then do the final prep and install. It's the icing on the cake, but it will be done correctly. Do it once, but do it right, don't stick someone else with your lemon.

09/17/2009, 07:32 PM	#27
khanb31 SLim Jim Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Near Ohare, Des Plaines 60016 Posts: 1,096	+1 to jmkarcz's post. Im really glad though that the guys at 3 different aquarium manufacturers were willing to share some of their knowledge. I got most of the ideas and correct directions from them. Things like, Instead of using my finger to spread the silicone into the seams, use a plastic spoon! I got my seams looking AWESOME using those. They are HUGE, but wow do they have a nice look to them. Patience is something that is not easy to come by. It took me 2 months (while i was NOT working full time), to build the system I have now. 3/4 of that time was spent on only the display. Some others arent willing to put that amount of time into it. My situation was different though. I wasnt working and I had NO money. you either have one or the other and I just happened to have time. I bookmarked this thread. .....i dont ever feel like typing all of that again. lol

09/18/2009, 08:42 AM	#28
jmkarcz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,728	Wow, nearly 2700 post and that was my first +1, Thanks! Maybe this will help also. Heat your plastic spoon up with a lighter or torch slightly... be careful not to burn it, and squeeze it to make it fold over and become more narrow... like rolling your tongue like a newspaper. I have done this with a old Metal spoon - I clean it after it hardens, the silicone peels right off. Also, I used to work at a brick yard. One of the tricks we gave people for fixing their chimney cap after they were mortared in, included HAND TROWELING silicone into a web at the top between the flue and the cement cap. You should not be so concerned about the words Flue and Cement cap here, but hand troweling silicone... After you apply your silicone, but before you tool it, if you wet your hands or tool with ""soapy water" the silicone reportedly does not stick to it and make a big mess. I've tried this and it worked. I do not frequently use that much silicone as to get my whole hand into it, but it works on tools. Get a canning/peanut jar and put a bit of liquid dish soap into it with enough water that it s still slippery. Drop you spoon that you use for tooling in there till your ready, and dunk often. ONLY do this after the silicone has been applied - I wait till the bead is run and sandwiched. The strongest part of the joint is between the glasses, the web is cosmetic anyway, and the silicone "rolls" in front of th spoon/tool like snow in front of a snowplow. When it is cured, then I cleanup what I don't want I also made myself a quick tool with 2 razor blades that shave either side of the web at a regular interval, The blades rusted ince I used it last or I would photo it. It works BEST if you press firmly with your rolled spoon to create a metal to glass point where the silicone diminishes uniformly from start yo finish, I adjust the blade to follow that line, so excess is trimmed. And above all... don't play with the silicone. be deliberate in what you do and then be done... don't pu$$y foot around with it. it you don't get it on the first pass, working with silicone has taught me you will have only a 5% chance on the second and a 1% on the third, and forget it then after, your just making a mess of things... the first pass is everything.

09/18/2009, 09:15 AM	#30
chicagophil Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Chicago-NW side- Jefferson Park Posts: 680	This Glass talk makes me want to make my own tank. Lucky for me Khanb is Local to Chicago.

09/18/2009, 05:56 PM	#31
khanb31 SLim Jim Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Near Ohare, Des Plaines 60016 Posts: 1,096	jmkarcz- LOL, well im glad I was your first. Im honored actually because i really look up to those with a lot of experience. Thats why old people are awesome! (no im not calling you old...) i also agree with the 1 pass thing. Before I put my tank together, I siliiconed some baffles and test pieces together to ensure that I knew how to use my spoon correctly. Practice makes perfect. Ive also tested out the water myth. It works decently. I dont consider it necessary by any means though. OH- and I have pictures of the water droplets on the different edges of glass. I was able to recreate my results so everyone can see them. Now....If I could just get the picture onto my computer.....hmmm

09/20/2009, 11:46 AM	#32
khanb31 SLim Jim Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Near Ohare, Des Plaines 60016 Posts: 1,096	Alright!! going through 15 mins of BS to get the camera to work and actually give up the pictures that I had taken.... I have a picture of my test piece with the water droplets on it. As you can see, The droplets on the left side of the pane are ALOT smaller and condensed than the ones on the middle. This was the best picture I got with the crappy camera I had so please bare with me. The ones in the middle had completely started to fold more and more into the pane of glass. Each section was cleaned with a brand new razor blade VERY thoroughly. There was silicone on the left edge prior to me dropping the water on it. I took the silicone off right before I did this test. I went from the top left drop down the pane and then into the middle of the pane with the dropper. I would conclude from this....that there IS a difference in surface friction coefficients which would directly correlate with the silicone being in that location. Pretty interesting no? I like to think that this could be applicable on a general basis, but I have no way of knowing about the different types of glass. Im doing this test on 1/2" starfire glass that I have no idea the quality or manufacture. Everyone that is curious about whether or not this test is applicable to whatever tank your planning on re-seaming should do this very simple test to have a more educated decision about your approach. This could lead to a really good understanding of how youd need to go about reseaming your tank. Jim

09/20/2009, 10:51 PM	#34
khanb31 SLim Jim Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Near Ohare, Des Plaines 60016 Posts: 1,096	JTL - Thats what all of my posts and research/tests were trying to confirm. Whether or not there was silicone embedded in the top surface of the glass prior to any edge preparations. Also, even though there is absolutely no silicone visible to the naked eye, this shows that you still need to deal with it appropriately (i.e. Edge preparations). Which, JTL, you believe that steel wool and acetone takes care of this issue. I took it a step further and wanted the top layer to be taken off. I will try your method on some scrap glass when I get a chance. I am curious to see how far someone has to go to get rid of the silicone barrier. JTL, What type of steel wool are you using? Anything in particular? I guess it also depends on the type of silicones that were used on the old glass as well. I know what type I was working with. Do you know the names of the tank manufacturers' tanks that you were dealing with and using this method on? I imagine you have used it on a whole slew of different tanks. This could be a very interesting experiment.