ick and lights out..?

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by slow_leak

So waiting 6 weeks may or may not work. I have read as much as 72 days or (10-11 weeks). Wouldn't you be ****ed off after 8 weeks only to achieve nothing.

The 72 day cycle was in like a 55F tank. I think I recall seeing 8 weeks encompassing 99.9% of cases within tropical temps.

[camp]

I have a ick outbreak in my 210G. I tride a reef safe product but it did not work. I am going to catch my fish an qt them. Some of my fish look good but some dont. I did lose
half of my fish.No lights did seem to help with the stress,but it time to do a real treatment in a qt tank.

[Nanz]

Originally Posted by Floowid

To answer your original question, the only benefit I see to leaving the light off may be to make the fish feel more at ease, if they are looking for a place to stay/hide. the ick parasite is going to follow its own course, you can try to speed it up or slow it down with lights and temperature, but I think that would be counter productive.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. The cure for ick is a healthy water volume, and healthy fish with healthy immune systems. So my suggestion is to find out what is causing your fish stress. Is it too many fish too fast, wrong fish types together, bad water quality? Correct those problems and the fish will take care of the ick.

Hope and prayer is not going to work with ich. The fish can't take care of the ich. Eradicate the ich, QT your fish and you will never have to deal with it again.

[KashAlp]

Ok i think there was a misunderstanding in my original question..

I wasnt asking if lights out would help "cure" or prevent ich.. what i meant was are the ick more likely to transform into the next stage of life during lights out time.

I have found a vry intresting theory about this and here is a quote fromt he article:

"Biology" paragraph http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

There is another interesting observation I found in my investigations concerning the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans. Mature trophonts leave the host and tomites exit the theront/cyst in the dark (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Imagine if you will, a fish that randomly acquires a single Ich parasite. After a couple of days when the trophont is well fed, it prepares to drop off its host but waits for the environmental trigger of darkness. Meanwhile, the fish prepares to "bed down" in its favorite hiding spot in the aquarium; the same fish occupy the same spot practically every night. Now, the trophont leaves the fish, encysts, and begins to multiply. Several days to weeks go by and that same fish returns to its same spot at night, only this time there are hundreds of infectious theronts seeking out a host/victim in the same area. I am sure some of you are thinking that this is absolutely diabolical. Others can appreciate the simple beauty of this plan. To me, it is just another reminder of how remarkable evolution and adaptation is.

Anyways... for the record i have set up a QT and moved remaining fish. Copper treatment has started and DT will remain fallow for 6-8 weeks.

[ccube]

I had an outbreak of ich starting with powder blue tang. I went and bought some garlic guard and some aminomega acids and vitamins and i soak the food in this every night before feeding. My fish show no signs of ich or any other external parasites. Everyone is happy and they all eat like pigs. I agree with mcdonaldtj when i say that ich is in every system at one point or another. It is a weakness that is easily controllable. Keep your water params stable and make sure there are no bullies and that everyone is eating and it will go away in no time. I do highly reccommend garlic guard and aminomega.

E : Save yourself the frustration and dont waste the time and effort to take everyone out and Q then for weeks. Keep the stress level as low as possible.

[Jstdv8]

Forgive us ccube if we take the word of experts like julian sprung over yours.
What do yuo suppose is going to happen in your "healthy" tank when the power goes out and you aren't home or your heater goes on the fritz and you aren't home? or your skimmer magicly overflows and your automatic top off dumps a bunch of freshwater into the tank to take the pace of the skimmed off water?
Telling people not to QT thier fish is like telling them they don't need a heater if they have metal halide lights. Sure it might work great for a while...

[Floowid]

Originally Posted by Nanz

Hope and prayer is not going to work with ich. The fish can't take care of the ich. Eradicate the ich, QT your fish and you will never have to deal with it again.

This is where you are wrong. Fish CAN take care of ick. I have seen it in my own tank with my own eyes so don't tell me they can't. Ick is everpresent in the ocean, and I would wager that it is in EVERY tank out there. Fish in the ocean don't all die of ick, because they have immune systems that fend off and fight disease and parasites.

There is a certain school of thought that is popular right now, and it preaches the 4 week cycle, the 6 weeks, some say 8, there was a recent study that said 11 weeks, but the truth of the matter is there has not been enough study to conclusively determine that ick dies and goes away forever with 8 weeks of a fallow tank. There is nothing conclusive showing that copper kills EVERY ick parasite in EVERY stage of it's lifecycle. There are a lot of opinions, and there is still ick everywhere.

Telling someone to maintain a healthy water volume is not hope and prayer. It is sound advice.

[Floowid]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8

Forgive us ccube if we take the word of experts like julian sprung over yours.
What do yuo suppose is going to happen in your "healthy" tank when the power goes out and you aren't home or your heater goes on the fritz and you aren't home? or your skimmer magicly overflows and your automatic top off dumps a bunch of freshwater into the tank to take the pace of the skimmed off water?
Telling people not to QT thier fish is like telling them they don't need a heater if they have metal halide lights. Sure it might work great for a while...

I would tell you in all those situations you just mentioned that you have bigger things to worry about.

And for the record, I am not anti-QT, I think it is a sound practice, when done right. But don't think that your good QT practices excuse you from having a healthy tank as well.

[Jstdv8]

come take a water test from my tank If you find any ich I'll give you 100 bucks.

it was ccube who was suggesting that QT was a waste of time.

[Jstdv8]

Originally Posted by Floowid

This is where you are wrong. Fish CAN take care of ick. I have seen it in my own tank with my own eyes so don't tell me they can't. Ick is everpresent in the ocean, and I would wager that it is in EVERY tank out there. Fish in the ocean don't all die of ick, because they have immune systems that fend off and fight disease and parasites.

There is a certain school of thought that is popular right now, and it preaches the 4 week cycle, the 6 weeks, some say 8, there was a recent study that said 11 weeks, but the truth of the matter is there has not been enough study to conclusively determine that ick dies and goes away forever with 8 weeks of a fallow tank. There is nothing conclusive showing that copper kills EVERY ick parasite in EVERY stage of it's lifecycle. There are a lot of opinions, and there is still ick everywhere.

Telling someone to maintain a healthy water volume is not hope and prayer. It is sound advice.

He didn't say not to keep your water in good shape and feed yuor fish properly. He said if you think you are going to rid yourself of ich by changing light timing or feeding garlic you might have just as good of luck with a crucifix.
Turning his words around isn't going to make the ich go away either.

[Levito]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8

come take a water test from my tank If you find any ich I'll give you 100 bucks.

it was ccube who was suggesting that QT was a waste of time.

Give me a test that can detect ich in the water and I'll give you a lot more than $100!

[KashAlp]

Originally Posted by Levito

Give me a test that can detect ich in the water and I'll give you a lot more than $100!

Microscope sure you gotta take a water sample that contains the parasite but its a for sure way to see if you have ick. (if one were so inclined to to do)

lol sry all this bickering i had to get 1 smart a$$ comment in. cheers

now wheres my money $$$ lol j/k buy me a beer if i ever run into you in Jersey City at your place looking at your tank.

[Jstdv8]

hey, hold on alp, he was talking to me.......
Microscope... now how much were you going to pay me?

[Jstdv8]

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
Jen posted this in another thread, good read. But the very last pragraph may have some insight into the original posters thoughts on the lights out thing.

[Floowid]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8

He didn't say not to keep your water in good shape and feed yuor fish properly. He said if you think you are going to rid yourself of ich by changing light timing or feeding garlic you might have just as good of luck with a crucifix.
Turning his words around isn't going to make the ich go away either.

I didn't turn anyone's words around. I'll say it again. Fish CAN fight off ick. It is what their immune systems are for. Just like yourself and the common cold. Your body will get over it eventually if you are otherwise healthy. If you are distressed or immune compromised in some way, a cold can kill you. I do not intend to bicker with you over it, I am just stating my opinion as fact :P

[Jstdv8]

Fight it off yes, in an earlier post on this thread you said it was a "cure for ich" which is not correct.
I don't think anyone is disputing that keeping good water quality and limiting fluxuations in peramaters and having freindly tankmates is certainly going to keep the ich that is present in an ich tank at bay for quite some time.
This is a given.
What seems to be up for debate is weather or not it can be eliminated by use of treatments and fishless periods.

[Chris27]

Good luck with the microscope guys - I wish I had that kind of time

Crypt can be eradicated, I've done it in both my display and QT as have countless others. The display was left fishless for 5 weeks with the temp at 80-82, and the QT was eradicated by properly dosing ionic copper over the same 5 week period. Future active QT'ing of everything (coral/inverts/fish) can ensure that you don't re-introduce the parasite again.

To compare an aquarium to the open ocean is apples to oranges, confined spaces change the rules to almost everything....it's much easier for the parasite to find a host in 200 gallons of water then it is in the South Pacific. Just the same, it's much easier for us to get a cold after an airplane ride then it is walking around Yellowstone Park...

[KashAlp]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
Jen posted this in another thread, good read. But the very last pragraph may have some insight into the original posters thoughts on the lights out thing.

yes ive recently read the same study. Which does in fact answer my original question. Therefor i am going to answer my own question and state for the record (assuming that the study IS correct) that:

Doing water changes AFTER lights out, at which time the ich parasites are more LIKELY to seperate from the host, will be more benefical in REDUCING (not "curing" or eliminating) an ich outbreak.

Since some ich will be removed from tank before it has a chance to reproduce and possibly hundreds of more parasites are released in the tank it may be worth a thought in certain circumstances. ie. a person who has a fully stocked large tank and is unable to remove all the fish for treatment at the same time?

Perhaps the combination or excellent water quality, good diet, uv sterilizers, any other known "meathods of battling ick, AND night time water changes combined is a step in the right direction for MINIMIZING as much as possible a further more sever ich outbreak.

i dunno.. with sooo much we dont know about ich, i know if i was one of the people in a hypothetical situation as mentioned above id appreciate any ideas that would have any signifigance to the topic on hand.

flake for thought...

[Nanz]

Originally Posted by Floowid

I have seen it in my own tank with my own eyes so don't tell me they can't.

You must have microscopic eyes because I don't know how you can observe ich in your tank without using a microscope. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar). Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible.

Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

These are facts! Not something I made up or have an opinion. Study the disease yourself and give some scientific evidence not your opinion.

I never said maintaining a healthy water volume is hope and prayer. I advocate weekly water changes but to eradicate ich which can be done; research supports either using copper, hypo or transfer method.

[heckhole]

My experience with Ich was bad.

I do not QT anything, I simply do not have the space for it - so it's either not enjoy this hobby at all or do the best that I can.

I have a 75g w/20g sump, upon initial setup I brought home 6 Damsels from a LFS. They were in a copper system for several weeks, tossed them into a system that was just a few days old. Few days later they started scratching and I could visibly see the Ich spots. 2 died but they were fragile looking when I brought them home, the rest survived, visually healed but still scratched at times. I stumbled upon someone breaking down a system, acquired some liverock & tank that I traded into a LFS, but kept the Grunt & CBS from the system, this was about 6 months after my Ich outbreak. The Grunt NEVER developed any visible signs & never displayed any physical signs of Ich, never scratched & has gotten fat & grown fast. About 6 months later I added a Mandarin & Yellow Tang that spent about a month @ the LFS' copper fish system. I acclimated for a few & tossed them right in. Mandarin is a little fatty, the Tang never scratches & looks great.

I have no equipment on my system other than power heads. No skimmer, no UV sterilizer..nadda. I just do a weekly water change & keep my parameters as stable as possible. I've had a couple wild temp swings this year and nothing has stressed the fish to bring out the Ich, if it's still even present in the system.