Hair Algae...Give Me Your Thoughts - Page 2

reefgeezer · 10/02/2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christoph

I am battling some hair algae as well in a tank soon to be mine. I spoke with a very reputable LFS owner in my area and he told me that some live rock simply release phosphates (I can't remember exactly if it is phosphates) and always will. Certain rock gathered from Florida in particular. He said it would have to be replaced if that were the case. I don't know what I'm talking about - just relaying some info that was given to me. Good luck with the battle!

Phosphate is released by daily biological processes. Some may be bound to calcium carbonate based rock, sand , etc. and slowly released also. That's why we use GFO and dose Kalk. Carbon dosing also works. However you must have a very good skimmer. The afore mentioned Aqua C skimmers may not be sufficient.

mcarroll · 10/03/2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FocusFin

[....]rock is leaching phosphates, probably because he used nothing but tap water for his system.

Using tap water will not load rocks with phosphates.

Biological organisms (from bacteria on up) use phosphates to build their cells. If "rock is leaching phosphates" it's because it is not fully cured - animal matter is still dying off/decomposing within the pores of the rocks.

Consider that a minimum of one month cycle time is usually recommended for uncured rock before adding it to an established system.

-Matt

Gary Majchrzak · 10/03/2010, 04:17 PM

liverock can accumulate PO4 and release it. This can feed hair algae growth.
"Cooking" LR can rid it of PO4. (Search for the proper method of "cooking LR" as it does not involve heat!)

The bottom line is nuisance algae is fed by phosphates and nitrates.
Once one learns how to limit and remove these it becomes fairly easy to control hair algae.

Believe it or not.

FocusFin · 10/09/2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarroll

Using tap water will not load rocks with phosphates.

Biological organisms (from bacteria on up) use phosphates to build their cells. If "rock is leaching phosphates" it's because it is not fully cured - animal matter is still dying off/decomposing within the pores of the rocks.

Consider that a minimum of one month cycle time is usually recommended for uncured rock before adding it to an established system.

-Matt

The rock with hair algae growing on it came from a system that had been established for over a year and it has been in my system for another 18 months so I assume it is reasonably cured.

Gary Majchrzak · 10/09/2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FocusFin

The rock with hair algae growing on it came from a system that had been established for over a year and it has been in my system for another 18 months so I assume it is reasonably cured.

or reasonably loaded up with accumulated PO4

FocusFin · 10/09/2010, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

or reasonably loaded up with accumulated PO4

That was my original point, that my rock was leaching phosphates as a result of being in a system with high phosphate levels presumably from using tap water but it was suggested that in fact rock cannot leach phosphates and that it was due to the rock not being cured.

Gary Majchrzak · 10/09/2010, 09:28 AM

perhaps not everyone was following the point.

cured rock CAN release PO4.

In any case, IMO/IME I would go after phosphates. Reduce/remove them. There are many methods. Use a combination of methods if necessary. Once you've tamed nusiance algae you can make your life a little easier by steering clear of threads like this one.... or choose to try and help others.

Remember- nuisance algae is probably the biggest reason people get out of maintaining a reef aquarium.

mcarroll · 10/14/2010, 02:33 PM

For anyone who wasn't following, the point was the there are no phosphates in the rocks. Mostly calcium and carbonates.

If there are phosphates, they are from something that was formerly alive in/on the rock that is decaying.

Further, rock with a significant amount of "formerly alive" stuff would be just as well considered uncured....unless someone wants to come up with a new term for it just because the rocks weren't freshly purchased.

Regardless of the term you prefer, the condition and treatment (at least my recommendation) would be the same.

Good luck!

-Matt

zma21 · 10/14/2010, 03:05 PM

I've always struggled with HA in all of my tanks.

Bought an emerald crab, went on vacation for 6 days, and now my tank is sparkling.

It is growing back, but the emerald is eating it just as fast as it grows, so it's otherwise unnoticable. Pretty nice symbiotic relationship if you ask me.

Gary Majchrzak · 10/14/2010, 03:28 PM

herbivores are a "top down" strategy for controlling nusiance algae.
they're recyclers.
critter (herbivore) poo releases PO4 which in turn can fuel (more) nuisance algae growth if it's not removed/exported from a closed system.
The "bottom up" approach to ridding an aquarium of nuisnace algae would involve limiting it's fuel source.

"Cured" rock (and especially liverock that's been used in an aquarium for many years) can and does liberate PO4. The PO4 accumulates inside the pores of the rock itself.

Old "cured" liverock can be the cause of a symptom commonly called "old tank syndrome". (Old DSB's can become a PO4 sink as well.)
There's even an algae that's linked to this syndrome: Cladophora.

Good news:
liverock is renewable via a process known as "cooking". This method doesn't involve heat, so don't get fooled by the name.

here's a link to the instructions on "cooking" liverock.

slant77 · 10/12/2011, 07:31 PM

So if you have a tank full of corals your supposed to brake off your corals so you can take it all out to cook your rocks?

acrohead500ppm · 10/12/2011, 07:49 PM

does it look like small ferns up close? or green cotton?

Here are the best steps to ridding your reef of algea problems
1st- like many before me said : find out where the excess nutrients are coming from!!
-get your water accurately tested!!!
-could be your source water (if you dont know the TDS dont add it)
-could be be feeding habits
-If the tanks been est for more than a month and has ample LR, maybe try taking the filter sock offline- (Unless you clean it well every 48hrs it maybe doing more harm than good by being a nitrate factory.)

.

-Next
You need ID the member of the chlorophyta (green algea) family you are having a problem with, as certain methods of eradication work superb with a certain genus' while proving useless with another. (this is esp. true when using a fish or grazer that readily feeds on certain algaes) most reefkeepers favorite natural weapon against algea outbreaks TANGS! also snails and crabs, maybe a blenny.- the species to buy is dependant on the type of algea you have a problem with

the two most common problematic hair algeas from the family of chlorophyta are of the genus Bryopsis and the genus Debersia.
Far away they look identical (green ugliness!) but on closer inspection you can differencitate between the two. (depending on the species)
Species of the genus Bryopsis will usually resemble clumps of micro ferns or feathers.
Debersia's growth will more than likely look like clumps of "hair" or tufts of loose cotton.
If you find you have bryopsis- then its not your lucky day! You almost surely have a nitrate problem in your reef, however when testing- it may be undetectable like many said before with large mass of algea present as bryopsis is very efficient at uptaking nitrates for growth- fuel. Bryopsis is the harder of the two to get rid of by natural ( adding a grazers/fish ) means as Bryopsis manufactures toxic compounds in its tissues to deter -would be grazers.
Some crabs and species of blennies will pick at it, though more than likely their progress will go un-noticed.
Turbo grazers will offer some help but usually wont clean it up completely-plus who wants bulldozers in their tank?
The critter that offers the best solution is the sea lettuce slug (Tridachnia Crispa) It will devoure all of it until its all gone after-which the slug dies of starvation as bryopsis is its sole food source.
There is one invasive new trend on that has people raising their mag levels beyond normal levels to shock out the bryopsis. You can also shock out many species of pest algea including some in the genus Bryopsis with strong additions of lime water to slowly raise ph to around 8.5 for a few days
(both not recommended for novices) aka (playing with fire)

If you have Debersia algea than your on a pretty easy street most crabs and snails readily eat it. Most blennies find it delectible also.
Debersia readily absorbs phosphates and silicates for its primary supplemental grow fuel plus it tends to be easier to pull off rockwork.
BELOW are some all around good tips and tricks for pest algea prevetion and treatments.

-make SURE you have adequate water movement in the display
-have plenty of scavangers before problems arise with organic waste
-use a turkey baster to blow detritus out of the rockwork immediately before waterchanges to dilute the mass of undissovled organic compounds in the system (this can also be done a without performing the waterchange after if correct filtration measures are in place - over sized protein skimmer , temporary (48hr) filter sock in place.
-drip lime water in safe addtions as not to raise ph too high- limewater dosing also increases the surface viscosity of the water resulting in enhanced protine skimming- it also precipitates phospahtes in the aquarium
-rinse all frozen foods in purified water before feeding
-clean skimmer cup/riser tube every 48 hrs to maitain optimal performance
- consider using a ion exchange resin mix media in filter or a type of phospate absorbing media (depending on whats elevated)
-It maybe a tedious task but in times of war with pest algea- removing it from the system in anyway shape or form will be a great help to overcomming the nutrient problem of the system as many know lots of people even imply this method of nutrient removal in what we call Algea scrubbers or macro algea filtration.

My best immediate action advice is to remove as much algae as possible as a great concentration of the nutrients are bound in the algae's tissues via siphon/ WC

10/03/2010, 04:17 PM	#28
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	liverock can accumulate PO4 and release it. This can feed hair algae growth. "Cooking" LR can rid it of PO4. (Search for the proper method of "cooking LR" as it does not involve heat!) The bottom line is nuisance algae is fed by phosphates and nitrates. Once one learns how to limit and remove these it becomes fairly easy to control hair algae. Believe it or not. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

10/09/2010, 09:28 AM	#32
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	perhaps not everyone was following the point. cured rock CAN release PO4. In any case, IMO/IME I would go after phosphates. Reduce/remove them. There are many methods. Use a combination of methods if necessary. Once you've tamed nusiance algae you can make your life a little easier by steering clear of threads like this one.... or choose to try and help others. Remember- nuisance algae is probably the biggest reason people get out of maintaining a reef aquarium. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

10/14/2010, 03:05 PM	#34
zma21 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NOLA Posts: 1,453	I've always struggled with HA in all of my tanks. Bought an emerald crab, went on vacation for 6 days, and now my tank is sparkling. It is growing back, but the emerald is eating it just as fast as it grows, so it's otherwise unnoticable. Pretty nice symbiotic relationship if you ask me. __________________ SCA 50 Starfire: In Progress Current Tank Info: 20 High -> 40 Cube -> Nanocube 12 DX -> 25 Gallon Rimless -> 10 Gallon AGA Temporary Tank -> JBJ 24 LED -> SCA Starfire 50 Cube

10/14/2010, 03:28 PM	#35
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	herbivores are a "top down" strategy for controlling nusiance algae. they're recyclers. critter (herbivore) poo releases PO4 which in turn can fuel (more) nuisance algae growth if it's not removed/exported from a closed system. The "bottom up" approach to ridding an aquarium of nuisnace algae would involve limiting it's fuel source. "Cured" rock (and especially liverock that's been used in an aquarium for many years) can and does liberate PO4. The PO4 accumulates inside the pores of the rock itself. Old "cured" liverock can be the cause of a symptom commonly called "old tank syndrome". (Old DSB's can become a PO4 sink as well.) There's even an algae that's linked to this syndrome: Cladophora. Good news: liverock is renewable via a process known as "cooking". This method doesn't involve heat, so don't get fooled by the name. here's a link to the instructions on "cooking" liverock. __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors Last edited by Gary Majchrzak; 10/14/2010 at 03:33 PM.

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10/14/2010, 02:33 PM	#33
mcarroll Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Northern VA Posts: 327	For anyone who wasn't following, the point was the there are no phosphates in the rocks. Mostly calcium and carbonates. If there are phosphates, they are from something that was formerly alive in/on the rock that is decaying. Further, rock with a significant amount of "formerly alive" stuff would be just as well considered uncured....unless someone wants to come up with a new term for it just because the rocks weren't freshly purchased. Regardless of the term you prefer, the condition and treatment (at least my recommendation) would be the same. Good luck! -Matt

10/12/2011, 07:31 PM	#36
slant77 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 611	So if you have a tank full of corals your supposed to brake off your corals so you can take it all out to cook your rocks?

10/12/2011, 07:49 PM	#37
acrohead500ppm Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: No,never,never Posts: 723	does it look like small ferns up close? or green cotton? Here are the best steps to ridding your reef of algea problems 1st- like many before me said : find out where the excess nutrients are coming from!! -get your water accurately tested!!! -could be your source water (if you dont know the TDS dont add it) -could be be feeding habits -If the tanks been est for more than a month and has ample LR, maybe try taking the filter sock offline- (Unless you clean it well every 48hrs it maybe doing more harm than good by being a nitrate factory.) . -Next You need ID the member of the chlorophyta (green algea) family you are having a problem with, as certain methods of eradication work superb with a certain genus' while proving useless with another. (this is esp. true when using a fish or grazer that readily feeds on certain algaes) most reefkeepers favorite natural weapon against algea outbreaks TANGS! also snails and crabs, maybe a blenny.- the species to buy is dependant on the type of algea you have a problem with the two most common problematic hair algeas from the family of chlorophyta are of the genus Bryopsis and the genus Debersia. Far away they look identical (green ugliness!) but on closer inspection you can differencitate between the two. (depending on the species) Species of the genus Bryopsis will usually resemble clumps of micro ferns or feathers. Debersia's growth will more than likely look like clumps of "hair" or tufts of loose cotton. If you find you have bryopsis- then its not your lucky day! You almost surely have a nitrate problem in your reef, however when testing- it may be undetectable like many said before with large mass of algea present as bryopsis is very efficient at uptaking nitrates for growth- fuel. Bryopsis is the harder of the two to get rid of by natural ( adding a grazers/fish ) means as Bryopsis manufactures toxic compounds in its tissues to deter -would be grazers. Some crabs and species of blennies will pick at it, though more than likely their progress will go un-noticed. Turbo grazers will offer some help but usually wont clean it up completely-plus who wants bulldozers in their tank? The critter that offers the best solution is the sea lettuce slug (Tridachnia Crispa) It will devoure all of it until its all gone after-which the slug dies of starvation as bryopsis is its sole food source. There is one invasive new trend on that has people raising their mag levels beyond normal levels to shock out the bryopsis. You can also shock out many species of pest algea including some in the genus Bryopsis with strong additions of lime water to slowly raise ph to around 8.5 for a few days (both not recommended for novices) aka (playing with fire) If you have Debersia algea than your on a pretty easy street most crabs and snails readily eat it. Most blennies find it delectible also. Debersia readily absorbs phosphates and silicates for its primary supplemental grow fuel plus it tends to be easier to pull off rockwork. BELOW are some all around good tips and tricks for pest algea prevetion and treatments. -make SURE you have adequate water movement in the display -have plenty of scavangers before problems arise with organic waste -use a turkey baster to blow detritus out of the rockwork immediately before waterchanges to dilute the mass of undissovled organic compounds in the system (this can also be done a without performing the waterchange after if correct filtration measures are in place - over sized protein skimmer , temporary (48hr) filter sock in place. -drip lime water in safe addtions as not to raise ph too high- limewater dosing also increases the surface viscosity of the water resulting in enhanced protine skimming- it also precipitates phospahtes in the aquarium -rinse all frozen foods in purified water before feeding -clean skimmer cup/riser tube every 48 hrs to maitain optimal performance - consider using a ion exchange resin mix media in filter or a type of phospate absorbing media (depending on whats elevated) -It maybe a tedious task but in times of war with pest algea- removing it from the system in anyway shape or form will be a great help to overcomming the nutrient problem of the system as many know lots of people even imply this method of nutrient removal in what we call Algea scrubbers or macro algea filtration. My best immediate action advice is to remove as much algae as possible as a great concentration of the nutrients are bound in the algae's tissues via siphon/ WC