Why do people still cram the fish in!!!

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by jbax

people are idiots and look at a fish and say" i want it." the thing is, the lfs should ask those few questions,

what size tank do you have?

what do you have in livestock?

how long have you been in the saltwater hobby?

a while ago a guy went to my LFS. the guy was new to the saltwater hobby and just set up his 34g tank 3 days prior to going to the fish store. he looked at all the fish(tangs,wrasse, etc.) he wanted and when the owner refused to sell him any fish and explained why. the guy was dumbfounded and got mad said some choice words and said he would go the the lfs down the street.

later the owner said i'm not going to send those fish to sluaghter and also have my name associated with that massacre.

I'm betting I know that store, hehe

[scottsdale454ss]

How do you calculate how many gallons a fish needs to be happy?

I dont think any fish should be stuck in a fish tank.

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by scottsdale454ss

How do you calculate how many gallons a fish needs to be happy?

I dont think any fish should be stuck in a fish tank.

there's no calculation or hard and fast rule, but liveaquaria is a pretty standard guide.

[KafudaFish]

No one has included the "I plan on upgrading to a large tank in x amount of time so the fish will be ok for now" answer.

Yes some people will upgrade but often life changes things and then what?

[LordVega]

personally when i put my fish there i knew it was not the right one but i still did it cuz i thought later down the road when they outgrow the tank i either get a tank for my mom and give it to her or sell it... its really, really hard for me to wait for things does not only apply to fish tho i should know better cuz even tho this is my first salt water tank I used to bread chiclids and angels for about 5 years.

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

No one has included the "I plan on upgrading to a large tank in x amount of time so the fish will be ok for now" answer.

Yes some people will upgrade but often life changes things and then what?

I'd love to say I'm upgrading tanks, but the fact of the matter is you can say anything you want, but whether it happens or not is pretty slim.

And I know I could say all day long, "I'm upgrading to a Marineland 250 DD" when in fact my wife would have my hide if I even SPOKE of such a thing.

[RenoR1]

I think it has something to do with the storage and display of fish in the LFS. How many times do we see tangs and triggers displayed in a 20G tank. People then think that they can do it. Or my favorite is the HORRIBLY overstocked reef at the front of the store (90G) with no coralline, and a bunch of under-lit coral. The fish look very sad and probably die fairly rapidly. But people see this tank and want to replicate it

[Megatrev62]

Well me and one particular lfs are going to be bunping heads very soon. If there's anyway I can shut this guy down it will be done. Other hobbyists feel the same way. This store is in for the money only and has ripped off many a newbie. Example- hippo tang-yellow tang-coral beauty-2 percs-and a foxface sold to an unknowing customer and all thrown in a 33 gallon tank. This guy lost all the fish in short order and the store would do NOTHING for him. Horror story after horror story from this place. If you saw this store you would throw up!!! We may go to the better business bureau as a group.

[fish77]

Alot of LFS's are like that, and it is horrible, its also horrible that the customers buy too big of fish for that size tank fish over and over again from that LFS..IMO

[jbax]

Originally Posted by chimmike

I'm betting I know that store, hehe

[reefsforme]

The reason being is that they believe they are very intellectual beings, and believe a species of fish wont grow out the tank, if there is not enough room. Also, they have attractive colors and prices. I say, to deter these people, we should paint the fish just one color, brown, and charge a bundle on them, so they wont be tempted to buy!

[cakemanPA]

Originally Posted by scottsdale454ss

How do you calculate how many gallons a fish needs to be happy?

I dont think any fish should be stuck in a fish tank.

Then why would you be part of reefcentral. This sort of post just irritates me. I am sure that my tank is somewhat overstocked. But I do not pack them in. But to say no fish should be stuck in a tank is just stupid.

[KMP]

Two rules; 1) fish will only grow to the size of the tank they are in, and 2) an inch per 10g, so nothing wrong with putting a 7" fish in a 70g aquarium.






...man, can't believe i'm the first one to try and lighten the mood

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by chimmike

there's no calculation or hard and fast rule, but liveaquaria is a pretty standard guide.

The last place I would go to get reliable advice on tank sizes for any fish would be from a vendor. I don't have personal knowledge of where they get their info, but it looks to me like it was written after a big pitcher of margaritas or maybe they just used an eight ball . They recommend a 30g for a mandarin which could be rather misleading to the uninitiated and a 30g for a fish like a bicolor angel (which is absurdly undersized) yet then mysteriously require 120 g for a Singapore angel, a fish with similar needs.

I like Live Aquaria and I have had excellent experience ordering from them and would use them again. But it's not where I would go for serious information on a fish species.

[rayn]

So where is a definative place to find tank and fish sizes? Whose to say line aqauria is wrong and dc is right? I know experience from members does play in, but look at the tang/tank sticky. How many of us actually stick to that rule?
There has to be some limit to the amount of fish in a tank, but the person running the tank is the ultimate deciding factor. Sure some lfs will sell a bunch of oversized fish to a undersized tank, but shouldn't the purchaser ultimately be responsible? I know when I go in and look I think as much about the fish happiness as I do mine. I am not happy throwing a 20, 40, 80 dollar fish away.

I just got a Sailfin tang. My largest tank now is a 120 that is five feet long. This guy is almost six inches. The lfs basically asked me to take him cause he knew I had a "larger" tank. I don't feel this tank is big enough to hold him long term, but looking at him in the store it was apparent he was stressed from being traded in and in a small holding tank. One day later and he has full color again and eating again.
What should I do there? Let the fish die?

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by rayn

So where is a definative place to find tank and fish sizes? Whose to say line aqauria is wrong and dc is right? I know experience from members does play in, but look at the tang/tank sticky. How many of us actually stick to that rule?
There has to be some limit to the amount of fish in a tank, but the person running the tank is the ultimate deciding factor. Sure some lfs will sell a bunch of oversized fish to a undersized tank, but shouldn't the purchaser ultimately be responsible? I know when I go in and look I think as much about the fish happiness as I do mine. I am not happy throwing a 20, 40, 80 dollar fish away.

I just got a Sailfin tang. My largest tank now is a 120 that is five feet long. This guy is almost six inches. The lfs basically asked me to take him cause he knew I had a "larger" tank. I don't feel this tank is big enough to hold him long term, but looking at him in the store it was apparent he was stressed from being traded in and in a small holding tank. One day later and he has full color again and eating again.
What should I do there? Let the fish die?

I don't know that there is a definitive place to go. I'm not sure what dc is (?).

Yes, lots of people keep fish in tanks that are too samll, but ust because people don't do the right thing, doesn't mean we should change the standard.

Fish happiness - now there's a term that not everyone is able to judge. We all know we've learned more about observing fish as we've advanced in the hobby. If you haven't had the opportunity to watch a tang in a 300 g tank, you may not be able to recognize a stressed tang in a 75g. Spending days watching flame angels in a 40,000g tank was a real eye opener for me. It wasn't until then that I knew that the behavior I'd seen in flames in 30-55 g tanks was not "happiness".

I don't keep tangs - based on what I've heard from experienced hobbyists, I don't think I'd feel comfortable about it. I'm not going to go buy one just to see. Sometimes I think you have to listen to people who've been doing this for 15 years.

I don't think anyone would fault you for taking that fish in. If there's fault, it's the masses who don't listen and have to have these fish anyway. If tons of people didn't buiy them, they wouldn't be in the stores. Who has a tank big enough for a sailfin tang? They should be special order, right? But they aren't which is partly how you found yourself doing tang rescue.

[jbax]

Originally Posted by rayn

So where is a definative place to find tank and fish sizes? Whose to say line aqauria is wrong and dc is right? I know experience from members does play in, but look at the tang/tank sticky. How many of us actually stick to that rule?
There has to be some limit to the amount of fish in a tank, but the person running the tank is the ultimate deciding factor. Sure some lfs will sell a bunch of oversized fish to a undersized tank, but shouldn't the purchaser ultimately be responsible? I know when I go in and look I think as much about the fish happiness as I do mine. I am not happy throwing a 20, 40, 80 dollar fish away.

I just got a Sailfin tang. My largest tank now is a 120 that is five feet long. This guy is almost six inches. The lfs basically asked me to take him cause he knew I had a "larger" tank. I don't feel this tank is big enough to hold him long term, but looking at him in the store it was apparent he was stressed from being traded in and in a small holding tank. One day later and he has full color again and eating again.
What should I do there? Let the fish die?

if you taking it, saved it's life then thats awesome. but you are right, it cannot stay in a 120g 5ft tank long term. i heard they get 15" long and the size of a dinner plate.

whats making me scratch my head is. your lfs can't find someone with a bigger tank that wants that beautiful fish. off the top of my head i know 5 people with 300g DD, 2 w/ 375g and 1 with a 575g.

[rayn]

Sorry stupid spell correcter, dc should've been rc. You could put any source in you want though, not just those two.
There may be larger tanks around, I don't know. Im in a unique situation where I can and will upgrade when the time comes and they know this as I've done it twice. I didn't say it before because that isn't the intent behind the purpose. People have to learn to do research and buy appropriate. I felt sorry for the fish, the black stripes were almost faded and after two days they are back.

[Mister_Palmer]

I think a lot of the problem comes from the people at some LFS, and the fact that every single person gives you a different answer.
Be it at the LFS, or on 10 different websites.

Most stores are going to sell someone the fish regardless of whether it's right. I've had people say the "At the end of the day we're a business" line to me before when asking.

I've also received the, "People online are nuts, nobody knows what works really..." and then they give you the "I've had [Insert weird fish combo] living together fine for 2 years"

As for looking online, like I said, so many varying answers.
For example, you can search "Blue Hippo Tank Size" and get 5 different answers just on the 1st google page.
I just did it...
1 site says 100g, The other says 70g, Other Forum says 120g+, Other site says 75g.
So then you look at your 60 Gallon and think, "Well it's close to 70..."

And actually, it is kind of funny that people will be like, "Yeah a Yellow Tang will be fine in a 75G" but 65g is too small. When most the time it's similar dimensions and what not, and maybe there's more water displacement etc.

You see online the 5 Gallons/Inch rule, and then someone tells you, "No, you can have 8-10 in there as long as you keep up with WCs"

But overall, people want more cool fish.

I wonder how well a LFS would do if they required like a tank photo and water test before purchasing anything...

[Angel*Fish]

I do know an aquarium store that requires a water test before making a purchase. They keep a record of your cycle and tank params and advise you on what to do, what you fish you can have etc. I think they do a decent job of helping newbies who don't want to spend precious brain cells understanding this stuff themselves. It's not a horrible system - they'll guide you into a 30g with a biowheel with no skimmer - sort of primitive. Yet I don't blame them - how can they possibly educate customers in a single visit to the store or persuade them that thye need a bazilion dollars worth of equipment? If they came at customers with all that info, they'd never sell anything.

That's just for people who've started their tanks with them or who want to sign up for the help. They don't refuse sales to people they don't know or anything like that, but they will ask about your tank. And they try to train most people to always come to the store with a water sample.

[Sk8r]

Tangs and angels are two of the largest species we keep in marine tanks: the ocean has many species we CAN'T handle at all, such as, say, jacks, and sunfish, and grunts, oarfish---the list could go on. But a tang is not 'just' a tang. That species has two different behaviors, one tending to rush about long distances, and the other to browse more in small areas. It has a number of different sizes, some that get about 7" long, and some that rival Charlie the Tuna. So just because you 'like tangs' doesn't mean you're set up to handle every tang. We tried to provide some guidance and info on what you're getting into when setting up the Tang List.
Angels have much the same issue: they range from little cherub and dwarf species, that stay small---and range upward to, say, the Queen Angel, which no ordinary net could handle. People see pictures of them as swimming the reef (indeed they do: they eat coral and sponges) and therefore WANT them in their reef. And then ask if there's a way to 'train them not to eat coral' or complain, "I feed it a lot! Why is it eating my corals?"
This image people get in their heads that drives them toward reefing is one of the major problems---pictures without size reference, and without any info about what that fish is actually doing in that picture, which should be titled: "Angel shopping for lunch," or "really big tang species next to coral head the size of a volkswagen". Maybe RC should put a scuba diver next to its trademark fish emblem, just for scale!

[bamf25]

Originally Posted by RenoR1

I think it has something to do with the storage and display of fish in the LFS. How many times do we see tangs and triggers displayed in a 20G tank. People then think that they can do it. Or my favorite is the HORRIBLY overstocked reef at the front of the store (90G) with no coralline, and a bunch of under-lit coral. The fish look very sad and probably die fairly rapidly. But people see this tank and want to replicate it

We also have to remeber how many LFS are set up when it comes to tanks. The tank the fish in may only be 20 g in size, but generally all the salt tanks will be on one large system so the system gallons may be in the 1000's. Furthermore, any LFS is going to be set up more along the lines of a QT which is ment to be short term use. They are not in the business of keeping fish, they want to sell fish. So your small tang is ok (not ideal granted) in the 20 g tank for the 1 or 2 weeks it takes to get sold. The 10 years in a home DT is a totally different story.

I really want to get a tang for my tank which is a 4 foot 120G. I am smart enough, and humane enough to realize that limites me to only the smallest tangs as well as the 4 or 5 they are rated good in a 4 foot tank. I have done my research, unfortunately many do not. They see this LFS tank, want to replicate it, and forget or do not realize the things i mentioned above.

[11:11]

Thou asking why people put triggers in small tanks is like asking why people put goldfish in small tanks...

If its not the ocean the tang is in, then its too small. With that being said its gonna happen no matter what.

[Palting]

I still remember my first impression of what a fish tank should look like. I was watching a show on TV, and they had a shot with multiple colorfull fish in that square picture. That's what I thought a fish tank should look like! LOL!!!

[James404]

Originally Posted by Megatrev62

Been reading and reading lol and just don't understand why hobbyists still put inappropriate fish in inappropriate tanks? Triggers, large angels, tangs all seem to be going in 55 and 75 gallon tanks. Read this all the time and most don't care or are upgrading down the road-yeah right-. I know that I've seen a trigger in a 75 gallon and it just doesn't look right. It looks too big for the tank!!!

I know we can blame LFS for sure but there are those that are more than responsible for this as well. I just don't get it.

So the people that say they are upgrading are liars? Thats a pretty big blanket statement to make...