Ich POLL!

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Gogandantess

Oh just wait til a Powder Blue Tang or Hippo wipes out your tank then you'll know how serious a threat ich is. I've experienced such tragic disasters from not qurantining fish. Your luck will only last so long until it happens.

FYI...I've got a Hippo, Sailfin and a Chocolate plus a 7 inch Foxface in addition to the Purple in the pic. All added within a year of when that pic was taken. None have come down with it. Ich is NOT the scourge that some of you think it is. Poor water quality and stress is however.

I contend that ripping your tank apart and chasing a fish around with a net and then quarantining it in a poison (copper) solution is much more harmful to a fish that leaving it alone to fight it off on his own.

[syrinx]

I always will be a supporter of QT-but I agree that I would lose a fish before I would tear a tank apart to further stress it. Incoming fish are already stressed, and a period of isolation and inspection does not increase that. I am sad that at least one of the "clean tank" guys that had a ich outbreak this winter has not chimed in. Much more is to be learned from failure than by success. Science is not about ego- it is about disproving your hypothisis to make it stronger. There is no question of the science of the lifecycle of ich in lab conditions- however there has been no study, nor is the able to be one, with the variables of a fullt setup reeftank. Only by getting true numbers of success and failures- and the setups that caused them can the whole story be told.

[briankmarsh1980]

a strong healthy fish can live fine having the parasite, but all its takes is a little stress or a small change in its environment and the fish is toast

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by syrinx

I always will be a supporter of QT-but I agree that I would lose a fish before I would tear a tank apart to further stress it. Incoming fish are already stressed, and a period of isolation and inspection does not increase that. I am sad that at least one of the "clean tank" guys that had a ich outbreak this winter has not chimed in. Much more is to be learned from failure than by success. Science is not about ego- it is about disproving your hypothisis to make it stronger. There is no question of the science of the lifecycle of ich in lab conditions- however there has been no study, nor is the able to be one, with the variables of a fullt setup reeftank. Only by getting true numbers of success and failures- and the setups that caused them can the whole story be told.

i love this explanation, if i had the money i would do an in depth study of ich in the reef tank as appose to just ich on a fish.

Originally Posted by briankmarsh1980

a strong healthy fish can live fine having the parasite, but all its takes is a little stress or a small change in its environment and the fish is toast

agreed.

[MrTuskfish]

Most of the people on this thread who think that fish can fight off ich have one thing in common: they seem to be experienced hobbyists and agree that good husbandry is vital in their success. I'm not going into a long spiel about my belief that ich is often mis-identified or try to explain the experiences of others. However, IMO, to give novice hobbyists (with little or no fishkeeping skills) the idea that ich isn't deadly and QT isn't vital is doing a great disservice to the beginning hobbyist. . Again, IMO.

[syrinx]

I agree mrtusk- on several points- first the identification thing. A foto online is not a diagnosis- a scrape and microscopy or fecal float etc is the way to identify what is going on. Also- newbies are likely to at first,to latch on to what agrees with what they want to do-so no matter how many of us say to QT incomming fish- it takes one person to say otherwise- for them to justify it. People who want to learn will read everything and make a judgment based on all of the facts as they are known.

[Gogandantess]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

FYI...I've got a Hippo, Sailfin and a Chocolate plus a 7 inch Foxface in addition to the Purple in the pic. All added within a year of when that pic was taken. None have come down with it. Ich is NOT the scourge that some of you think it is. Poor water quality and stress is however.

I contend that ripping your tank apart and chasing a fish around with a net and then quarantining it in a poison (copper) solution is much more harmful to a fish that leaving it alone to fight it off on his own.

Disagree. Leaving it alone to fight it off while it spreads in your display is not a good idea.

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Most of the people on this thread who think that fish can fight off ich have one thing in common: they seem to be experienced hobbyists and agree that good husbandry is vital in their success. I'm not going into a long spiel about my belief that ich is often mis-identified or try to explain the experiences of others. However, IMO, to give novice hobbyists (with little or no fishkeeping skills) the idea that ich isn't deadly and QT isn't vital is doing a great disservice to the beginning hobbyist. . Again, IMO.

true thats why i threw in the disclaimer at the beginning, this is purely opinion based on my observations, and is not a rule for which people should measure there practices with. reefing takes skill and patience, and wisdom to know when to intervene or when to wait and just watch. ( control freaks may have a problem with this, tho we all are to some degree control freaks )

but i also strongly agree with the quote below, simply cause when i started out i did what convenienced me, till the internet and books became my most valuable tool.

Originally Posted by syrinx

I agree mrtusk- on several points- first the identification thing. A foto online is not a diagnosis- a scrape and microscopy or fecal float etc is the way to identify what is going on. Also- newbies are likely to at first,to latch on to what agrees with what they want to do-so no matter how many of us say to QT incomming fish- it takes one person to say otherwise- for them to justify it. People who want to learn will read everything and make a judgment based on all of the facts as they are known.

Originally Posted by Gogandantess

Disagree. Leaving it alone to fight it off while it spreads in your display is not a good idea.

this is what made me want to start this thread. on different occasions (if u read all the posts) i would have one fish be afflicted and yet none of my other fish would share in the same misfortune.

[djze]

through out the years i have lost more fish in qt than in my display right now i have 2 new fish quarantined in a tank connected to the main system witch have ich none of my fish in the main display caught it and the infested fish are overcoming it but my system is well matured and consists of 600 gallon plus a lot of people fail with ich normally in the beginning because of unmatured systems & the size of the system plays a big role to but there is certain species that if you don't pull out and qt will be certain death so in reality i favor both methods if you contract a heavy virus and don't go to the doctor do you think your going to overcome it easily i believe if a fish is truly in bad shape we have to assist it in the best way possible

[THEDLO]

just came across this thought id share it

What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.

interesting because many people say that fish do not develop an immunity and there fore all must be QT'd maybe thats what many of us have gone through, and like Mr Tuskfish said our husbandry is what made the difference.

[briankmarsh1980]

Why risk not QTing everything that goes into the DT?
I never QTed anything for over a year.......
Now my tank is free of everything
I removed all fish treated and let my tank sit fishless for 2 months
And now I know for sure that I don't have to ever worry.
I put all inverts in QT for 30 days
Fish go through 1 week of para guard. 1 week of prozi pro and 4 weeks of copper followed by a 2 week observation period before ever going into my DT
Its a long process by its worth it knowing that my fish will be healthy and parasite free.
I think QT is a must IMO.

[Riteoff]

^^^ that is impressive QT practices, i wish i was that disciplined.

I have been reefing now for 2 years and figured id ad my opinion to the millions already on the net. I have had more than my fair share of ich outbreaks and always with tangs.

My first outbreak was caused by a 2yr old Hippo tang i acquired from a local reefer who had a world known tank until he tore it down. The tang was in my tank for 1 day when the ich spots showed, within 1 day after that my Powder blue was covered. With only a 10 gallon on hand i put the PBT into QT. 2 weeks into that poor water quality killed him.

The next bad case i found was a very well sorted local store with the sexiest, largest(6.5")long black nose tang ive ever seen. So covered in spots i figured he would be dead in a week. After he was moved to a quieter tank in the store he has now been spot free for 1 month and has never looked better.

I also have a recent PBT come down with ich 2 days into the DT. I moved and dropped the salinity slowly to 1.011 hoping i could save him. Within 1 week he was spot free, still eating well and his colours started to really pop! I kept up with the low salinity, water checks and good diet only to wake up to a completely covered fish 2 days ago(roughly 2.5-3 weeks into treatment). I have decided i will start to slowly raise the salinity and bring him back into the DT.

Im seriously starting to believe that ich is a lot more complicated and misunderstood than i previously figured. Ive done so much reading on ich over the last month i swear i have it! But after all the readings and watching of fish contract, lose it, get it, lose it for months i truley believe every tank has ich to some degree or another, like the flu that kills thousands of people every "season" if i a fish has the will to live it will. I find it hard to believe that only certain fish have immunity and others will die on contact. More than likely every fish that dies or tank wiped out other factors are to blame or hinder the fishes natural defence. I also think that in small controlled doses healthy fish of all species will develop a tolerance and or immunity.

I will start to QT all new fish as i found it helps adjust them to feeding, noise and handling etc, but if ich can survive hidden in the gills, 6+ months in a QT tank aint saving my display babies.

I would also like to ask anyone with a tang stocked tank who has never had a case of ich please, chase a fish around the tank with a net, stir up your sand, drop your temp 5deg in 1hr and let me know what happens. I think that would be a great test and shouldnt put any thriving fish to harm

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by briankmarsh1980

Why risk not QTing everything that goes into the DT?
I never QTed anything for over a year.......
Now my tank is free of everything
I removed all fish treated and let my tank sit fishless for 2 months
And now I know for sure that I don't have to ever worry.
I put all inverts in QT for 30 days
Fish go through 1 week of para guard. 1 week of prozi pro and 4 weeks of copper followed by a 2 week observation period before ever going into my DT
Its a long process by its worth it knowing that my fish will be healthy and parasite free.
I think QT is a must IMO.

well originally be cause it was too much trouble to go through i felt, and thankfully i never suffered any losses, and as time went on i developed a system that seemed to keep the fish healthy and ich immune ( said loosely )

[briankmarsh1980]

Originally Posted by Riteoff

^^^ that is impressive QT practices, i wish i was that disciplined.

I have been reefing now for 2 years and figured id ad my opinion to the millions already on the net. I have had more than my fair share of ich outbreaks and always with tangs.

My first outbreak was caused by a 2yr old Hippo tang i acquired from a local reefer who had a world known tank until he tore it down. The tang was in my tank for 1 day when the ich spots showed, within 1 day after that my Powder blue was covered. With only a 10 gallon on hand i put the PBT into QT. 2 weeks into that poor water quality killed him.

The next bad case i found was a very well sorted local store with the sexiest, largest(6.5")long black nose tang ive ever seen. So covered in spots i figured he would be dead in a week. After he was moved to a quieter tank in the store he has now been spot free for 1 month and has never looked better.

I also have a recent PBT come down with ich 2 days into the DT. I moved and dropped the salinity slowly to 1.011 hoping i could save him. Within 1 week he was spot free, still eating well and his colours started to really pop! I kept up with the low salinity, water checks and good diet only to wake up to a completely covered fish 2 days ago(roughly 2.5-3 weeks into treatment). I have decided i will start to slowly raise the salinity and bring him back into the DT.

Im seriously starting to believe that ich is a lot more complicated and misunderstood than i previously figured. Ive done so much reading on ich over the last month i swear i have it! But after all the readings and watching of fish contract, lose it, get it, lose it for months i truley believe every tank has ich to some degree or another, like the flu that kills thousands of people every "season" if i a fish has the will to live it will. I find it hard to believe that only certain fish have immunity and others will die on contact. More than likely every fish that dies or tank wiped out other factors are to blame or hinder the fishes natural defence. I also think that in small controlled doses healthy fish of all species will develop a tolerance and or immunity.

I will start to QT all new fish as i found it helps adjust them to feeding, noise and handling etc, but if ich can survive hidden in the gills, 6+ months in a QT tank aint saving my display babies.

I would also like to ask anyone with a tang stocked tank who has never had a case of ich please, chase a fish around the tank with a net, stir up your sand, drop your temp 5deg in 1hr and let me know what happens. I think that would be a great test and shouldnt put any thriving fish to harm

Ich has life cycles its not that it hides in gills but in the water and sand it attaches to the fish then reproduces and then the cycle starts over the parasite is smart and will learn your light cycle and will actually jump off the fish before the lights come on and go back after they shut off. So you may not see it during the day.
It takes about 4 to 6 weeks in a fishless tank to totally die off. It serves no purpose really to QT a fish that is going into a tank with fish that have never been QTed. You either do it right or don't do it at all IMO

[jimmyj7090]

I did a full hypo / fallow treatment ending in december 2005. No signs of ick since. Plenty of stressors over the yrs, but no spots.

[briankmarsh1980]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

I did a full hypo / fallow treatment ending in december 2005. No signs of ick since. Plenty of stressors over the yrs, but no spots.

that works great to
hypo and copper are the only ways to kill ich

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by THEDLO

just came across this thought id share it



interesting because many people say that fish do not develop an immunity and there fore all must be QT'd maybe thats what many of us have gone through, and like Mr Tuskfish said our husbandry is what made the difference.

I certainly did not mean to imply that hobbyists with better skills & experience means that they have the ability to keep a tank ich-free without treating fish & the tanks. The opinions of this group is not going to be influenced by this thread. I meant that the beginning hobbyist may easily assume the anecdotal accounts of unexplained cures are common and the norm. They are neither. There is something missing in this whole discussion. I don't know what it is or am I implying it is intentional. Until there is more than just individual accounts of unexplained ich cures, that could easily involve countless unknowns; I, and I hope the beginners , will stick with the advice of the real experts. People like Fenner, Goemans, RC Mods, etc.

[syrinx]

newbies should get a mentor, and read the books. Internet "experts" are to be taken with a grain of salt-Mods included. Even the people that agree with you on here are making gross mis-statments on the treatments,fallow time etc etc. Internet stuff is like gossip- a little gets lost and a little gets added with each step.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by syrinx

newbies should get a mentor, and read the books. Internet "experts" are to be taken with a grain of salt-Mods included. Even the people that agree with you on here are making gross mis-statments on the treatments,fallow time etc etc. Internet stuff is like gossip- a little gets lost and a little gets added with each step.

Bottom line, IMO. This is a forum, not a classroom with a PhD at the lectern. A forum is simply an exchange of information, experiences, ideas, and opinions. Nothing more & nothing less. (besides, at least half the PhD s I know are idiots; when removed from their area of expertise.---to my contract law Prof who downgraded me just because I was hungover almost 40 years ago!)

[syrinx]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Bottom line, IMO. This is a forum, not a classroom with a PhD at the lectern. A forum is simply an exchange of information, experiences, ideas, and opinions. Nothing more & nothing less. (besides, at least half the PhD s I know are idiots; when removed from their area of expertise.---to my contract law Prof who downgraded me just because I was hungover almost 40 years ago!)

That should be stickied at the top of each forum.

[angnak]

I currently have ich in my system. I bought an Achilles and added him into my 7 yr old tank with all my old guys and gals and a little ich showed up on the Achilles. No big deal. Every once in a while I would see a couple spots on my black tang, before the Achilles, and they would go away for a while. Well, the achilles started looking bad, covered in it. No one else though. He was still eating fine and finally started calming down and living peacefully. But, he still was covered in what looked like scars or something and a few spots so I made the unwise decision to pull all fish out and I setup a 100 gallon hospital tank. I honestly think that has caused more stress than letting them deal with it and keep them healthy in a nice established tank (see my post in this forum titled "Advise needed" or something like that). He looked to be beating it but I paniced because my fisrt tank over 8 yrs ago broke out and I lost everything. I didn't want to go through that again. Oh well, I think I am going to get them out today or tomorrow and put them back. Way to much stress right now. So I voted yes because of the fact I see a couple spots here and there on my black tang before all this and he always seems to beat it. He is a weird fish anyway, a loner type. I think it is when the others pay to much attention to him is when he gets into a mood and gets a couple spots.

[RBU1]

Well..........This is an interesting topic and I am not sure what I believe anymore. I was and still am for the QT process. But I guess my reasoning has changed recently. My initial reason for qting was to keep parasites out of my tank. My reason for qting now is to make the fish strong enough to fight off the parasite that somehow made it to my display after qting all my fish. So needless to say crypt is harder to keep out hen one wished to admit. My tank now will be left alone and not a single fish remove for treatment. The only fish showing signs is the latest to enter the main tank. The achilles hybrid. I currently have a scribbled angel in QT that will go in the main in a week or so.

[syrinx]

My theory is easy- fish get sick when stressed. Shipping is stress- so the y need to be kept in qt observation because they are most likely to get a sickness or infestation at this time of stress. for me once a fish is in the display- it likely will remain there regardless. I am not going to stress the whole tank for the sake of one fish. If my tank is in such a disarray that it stresses all the fish and they all get sick- then I would likely break down the system and transfer fish to a hospital tank for treatment.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by syrinx

My theory is easy- fish get sick when stressed. Shipping is stress- so the y need to be kept in qt observation because they are most likely to get a sickness or infestation at this time of stress. for me once a fish is in the display- it likely will remain there regardless. I am not going to stress the whole tank for the sake of one fish. If my tank is in such a disarray that it stresses all the fish and they all get sick- then I would likely break down the system and transfer fish to a hospital tank for treatment.

Given the number of parasites that can develop in the closed confines of a tank; even the healthiest fish can become infested with ich. I'm not an expert on this subject. I have experienced ich wipeouts, seen the healthiest fish die from ich and I've read everything I have time for on the subject. There are many posts on this forum that, more than ever, make me think ich is being misdiagnosed a lot. I'm not telling anyone they're wrong, there are just too many variables to do that; its just a gut feeling, but not without merit---IMO.

[brett027]

I'm sure I just jinxed myself by voting no!! LOL