Dinoflagellates! Help me before I give up.

[cody6766]

I went lights out once a week or so. I did it for a while, turned them back on and killed them when I noticed the dinos getting worse again. I wasn't very scientific about the methodology. I've been bogged down with flight training and haven't really had the time to pay the closest attention to the tank, so I was basically just chasing fires to put out.

[Rickyrooz1]

Will any of the bacteria in a bottle products work for Dino's? I am having the same problem. I did a 15 gallon water change, added 10 mexican turbo snails then covered the tank with the lights off for three days. All algae and dino's were gone after the three days but now (4 days later) the dino's are slowly coming back. My TDS out of my RO unit is 2ppm and out of my DI unit it is 0ppm. I checked the water in my trash can for my new saltwater and the phosphates were 0.08ppm! (Hanna PO4 checker). I am running biopellets and the PO4 in my display is 0.05ppm. Every time I add top off water I must be adding PO4 as well. I will test fresh RO water from the unit to make sure it isn't above 0ppm. If it isn't then my trash can must be leaching something into the water.

[Rickyrooz1]

PO4 out of the RO unit is 0.04ppm.

[Aquaman101]

I am on day 3 of turning the lights back on. I have the tank still wrapped in black trash bags, but I don't have the lights covered so the fans are able to let the heat escape. I have not turned the lights on for my regular 8 hour light period yet though. I started on Day 1 with 2 hours of lights, Day 2 with 3 hours, Day 3 with 4. I will work my way back up to 8 by adding one hour a day.

So far they haven't shown back up.........yet.

[zakk]

Okay, so -after- the full regimen of 3 days lights out, and 7 days dosing H2O2....

I have the tank on 6 hours lights only, and the refugium is now set to match those times (as opposed to running opposite)

They are still there, no question. Not as bad as before, but definitely there and sticking to the corals.

I'm going to go go out on a limb here, and sum up my thoughts after hours of researching these damn things, and 7 days of trying radical 'fixes':


A lot of people that are having problems with these things mention using GFO, and especially more efficient hi capacity GFO. There are also a lot of references to massive water changes fueling these things. There are references to people 'giving up'. There are also many stories ofraising PH, lights out, H2O2 dosing, and other non common-judgement things (seriously, we're basically dumping bleach in our systems!!?). Another common thread suggested right out dosing PO4, or letting the tank run 'dirty'.

The guys that don't seem to have troubles with these pests are the guys that run perfect water parameters, and good lighting all the time. They're not putting garbage bags over the tanks, depriving their corals of light or dumping peroxide into their fragile ecosystems. They just keep the tanks clean, and buy good quality RO/DI membranes and cartridges. Most of them don't even monitor PH, much less leave a lump of lime slag in their display tanks. Just good tank maintenance.

So I'm coming to a point here. When I stopped my GFO reactor, my phosphates jumped from 0.00 to .20 in 3 days. I'm not overfeeding at all, wasn't doing water changes, etc. That phosphate was coming from somewhere. Now I've admitted to being slack with my tank for ages (years), and when I finally got a good test kit, my PO4 was .78(!) and it had likely been that high for years. Also, when I stopped running GFO, the dinos slowed in their reproduction. I was led to believe that perhaps it was the ferrous oxide that was feeding them.

Here's what I am at now with my thinking. When GFO is running and the water reads 0.00, these things reproduce in front of my eyes, all over the substrate. When I stop GFO, the water fills with phosphate, and they slow down their reproduction. I'm going to guess that my issue is indeed PO4 (and perhaps nitrate) leaching. This has been mention by many people, but when you're doing massive water changes, your parameters look good, and these things are covering the tank and corals, it's easy to conclude that you are doing the wrong thing (as I did). I think these things are just suddenly getting a buffet of PO4 streaming out of the sand and rock, and with higher levels of algae already starved out, they can thrive and reproduce. So realistically, the only REAL solution, short of replacing all liverock and substrate, is to 'keep to the plan'. Your tank and corals may indeed suffer in the short run, but in the long run you will have a proper ecosystem.

So my plan at this point is to continue running hi cap GFO non stop in a phosban reactor. Shorter light intervals. Constant tests for PO4, and replacement of the GFO media when the numbers start to rise. Proper water changes with RO/DI water, keeping a close eye on TDS levels from the DI. Skimming wet. No more H2O2! I'll stick with this until there can't possibly be any more phosphate streaming out of rocks and sand. It will likely take quite a while, but I don't think I'll be trying any more radical solutions.

(sorry for the long post)

[Aquaman101]

I'm up to day 6 of turning the lights back on.

I have my main lights on for 8 hours today. The ballast to my actinics failed, so I haven't been able to turn those back on yet.

So far the dino's haven't reappeared, but I still have the tank wrapped so the ambient sunlight doesn't hit it.

At some point I'll have to remove the trash bags wrapping it. I fear that is when the dino's will reappear.

I also put in fresh high capacity GFO and carbon in, so we'll see if that helps or not.

[zakk]

I'm up to a 6hour light and 2 hour actinic schedule, with the fuge on the 6 hour day schedule (instead of opposite). Phosphates are reading at .08, but nitrates went from 2 to ~10, so I gave in and did a 20 gallon water change. Nitrates came down a bit. These things are still in there, the xenia seem to suffer worst with them, but they are 1/10th what they were, so I think the biggest contributor was my 24 hour light program (12 up top, 12 in fuge).

So currently running vertex bio pellets, hi cap gfo, and rox carbon in fluidized canisters, swapped out my old skimmer for a bubble magus, added a powerhead (am going to switch over to tunze powerheads). Oh, I also removed half the bio balls and replaced it with filter floss on the overflows, along with filter socks, as I have been blasting anything I see in the tank off with a turkey baster. Filter floss is getting really dirty fairly quickly, even with the socks on the pipes.

Under the microscope there are still some of them in the stuff I siphon out, but it's hard to find them in the samples, instead of seeing thousands of them throughout. So they might be at 1/1000th of what they were, who knows. I assume they're always in our tanks, they just can't be given what they need to explode in population.

[JG1]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...7#post19174507

[zakk]

I read a lot about that stuff, but isn't the idea to get rid of these things via a balanced system? That's what I'm trying to do, I'm even sorry I dosed the peroxide....

[JG1]

Originally Posted by zakk

I read a lot about that stuff, but isn't the idea to get rid of these things via a balanced system? That's what I'm trying to do, I'm even sorry I dosed the peroxide....

If I had them I'd get rid of it any way I could. The fauna stuff looks like it works.

[zakk]

Originally Posted by JG1

If I had them I'd get rid of it any way I could. The fauna stuff looks like it works.

I hear you, I just don't want them back. I thought maybe this stuff was like slime away, you know, kills it off but doesn't solve the reason for it...

I agree though, this is the first day in WEEKS that my corals are open and don't have strings hanging off them.... makes my day brighter..

[Aquaman101]

Well, I wish I had better news, but the dino's have come back.

On about day 7 of uncovering my tank and getting back to my full light schedule, I stared to see little bubbles forming on the rocks.

for some reason, the dino's tend to attach to the back way of my tank. Over the last week, more bubbles have formed and the brown snot is starting to form.

I guess I'll just have to include blackouts every other week and hope they go away eventually.

Sigh...

[zakk]

Originally Posted by Aquaman101

Well, I wish I had better news, but the dino's have come back.

On about day 7 of uncovering my tank and getting back to my full light schedule, I stared to see little bubbles forming on the rocks.

for some reason, the dino's tend to attach to the back way of my tank. Over the last week, more bubbles have formed and the brown snot is starting to form.

I guess I'll just have to include blackouts every other week and hope they go away eventually.

Sigh...

Mine are gone completely. No bubbles on the rock, no snot, no closed corals. I did ease way back on the phosphate remover, and my phosphates are sitting at .05 PPM (sloooowly coming back down). I'm running full lights 10-6pm and actinics 3-9pm. Fuge is only 10-3. I did a 18 gallon WC last week with no adverse affects, plan to do another one tomorrow. I still have the carbon in there I had running when I dosed the peroxide, but will likely swap that out with new gfo tomorrow as well.

The filter floss has filled with brown crap every two days, I don't know what that is from, but I just keep rinsing it or replacing it.

Sorry to hear they came back, what is your current lighting schedule?

[Aquaman101]

Originally Posted by zakk

Mine are gone completely. No bubbles on the rock, no snot, no closed corals. I did ease way back on the phosphate remover, and my phosphates are sitting at .05 PPM (sloooowly coming back down). I'm running full lights 10-6pm and actinics 3-9pm. Fuge is only 10-3. I did a 18 gallon WC last week with no adverse affects, plan to do another one tomorrow. I still have the carbon in there I had running when I dosed the peroxide, but will likely swap that out with new gfo tomorrow as well.

The filter floss has filled with brown crap every two days, I don't know what that is from, but I just keep rinsing it or replacing it.

Sorry to hear they came back, what is your current lighting schedule?

The ballast for my actinics is out right now, so I just run the main likes from 12pm - 7 pm. Moon light led's from 7pm - 10pm, then the fuge light from 12 am - 8 am.

I may go the Ultra Algae X route...

Unfortunately, my tank gets a lot of light due to ambient sunlight coming in windows. That starts a roughly 6 am and doesn't stop till 8 pm, with my tank lights on top of that, it really fuels the dino's. I literally have no where else to put my tank though.

[zakk]

Originally Posted by Aquaman101

The ballast for my actinics is out right now, so I just run the main likes from 12pm - 7 pm. Moon light led's from 7pm - 10pm, then the fuge light from 12 am - 8 am.

I may go the Ultra Algae X route...

Unfortunately, my tank gets a lot of light due to ambient sunlight coming in windows. That starts a roughly 6 am and doesn't stop till 8 pm, with my tank lights on top of that, it really fuels the dino's. I literally have no where else to put my tank though.

Can you swap the timing so that the fuge during the same time as the main tank? I think that's how my problem got root, they always had light to grow off of. I know a lot of people run their fuge on alternate cycles, but I really don't see why it can't be on when the main lights are on... looks like your tank has 24 hour a day lighting.

I have one big window in the room with the tank. I see that I lose 10 mins of daylight per day now, so I'll be back to 96 minutes of daylight pretty soon

[Aquaman101]

I'm debating setting up an alternate tank and taking all the rock, corals, fish and inverts and putting them there. Then I will treat the main tank with Ultra Algae X.

I worry that some dino's will hitchhike back and forth though and just end up back in my main tank when I reintroduce everything back.

Has anyone tried that before?

[reefgeezer]

You will have to return to the lights out regime each time the dinos return. Each time, it will take longer for them to come back. Eventually, they'll be gone. You will have to have patience. No amount of perfect water will get rid of them.

IMO, it seems that they show up when HA and cyano can't survive. Dinos are just better at competing for the few nutrients present in even the best system. Light is about the only limiting factor we have.

[Crkbaby]

I just got done fighting it had it for about 3 months and got rid of it in 3 days. I when with what I know since nobody knows anything for sure about it. I changed my plumbing so I would get more turnover from my tank to sump approx from 5 to about 7 times per hour right now I figured less nutrients would have time to settle in one place if there being filtered at a faster rate. I did a 2 day black out while doing the black out be sure to be raising your ph since ph is always lower when there is no light naturally I just kept it around 8.3-8.4. I think the combination of these things made the most sense. Due to algae needing light, A single cell algae is one of the 1st things to die off in a more acidic environment. and lastly giving nutrients less of chance to collect in one area. I introduced the lighting back in increments day 1 4 hours VHO, day 2 8 hours VHO, day 3 11 hours VHO, day 4 12 hours VHO 2 hours MH, Day 5 12 hours VHO 4 hours MH, day 6 12 hours VHO 6 hours MH, finally day 7 12 hours VHO 8 hours MH. Fresh carbon also I wouldn't think would hurt I run carbon, GFO, and biopellets. Hope this helps check your plumbing and see if you have a accurate turn over rate in your tank. use the calculator on the home page it helps alot.

[zakk]

Originally Posted by Aquaman101

I'm debating setting up an alternate tank and taking all the rock, corals, fish and inverts and putting them there. Then I will treat the main tank with Ultra Algae X.

I worry that some dino's will hitchhike back and forth though and just end up back in my main tank when I reintroduce everything back.

Has anyone tried that before?

I think dinos are already in everyone's tank, just for some reason they get the perfect enviro to take off sometimes. I think the only way to get them out of a reef tank 100% would be to sterilize it, and that's not really a good option

[yeldarbj]

Has anyone tried using a diatom filter (Vortex) to filter dinos out? I clean and change my filter socks regularly but I know they are not fine enough to catch dinos.

[quaz]

Dinos suck!!!

I've got about 60 maintenance tanks and 3 have issues with dinos right now and 2 or those three are driving me nutz!!!

Thanks for giving me some things to try. We'll see if I can knock them.

[zakk]

over a year later, and I still get outbreaks from time to time. I find a mix of 2 day lights out, 10ml of peroxide per day and turning off the GFO seems to knock them out.

I am fairly convinced there is a link between the GFO and the dinos, when they show up it usually coincides with either a change in type of GFO or just replacing with fresh. I think they feed off it somehow.

Pesky pest though.