Dosing Lugo's and amino acids

[Pallobi]

Originally Posted by disc1

WHAT??? Ethanol and water are 100% miscible. Vodka will not separate from water. Vodka IS ethanol and water, adding more water is no problem.

As a matter of fact, 100% pure ethanol will spontaneously pull 5% by volume of water out of the air to mix with itself.

Bartender? Do you know what is the difference between 80 proof vodka and 100 proof? About 10% by volume Water.

I'm no bartender, but I do have a doctorate in chemistry. I hope that qualifies me to speak in this thread.


The amino acids probably won't settle out in water, but bacteria may move in to the dilute solution and it won't be amino acids any more.

As for the lugols, I have no idea. Most of the guys that know any chemistry don't dose the iodine.

i wont argue your education, as ill admit, i am not college educated... but do me a favor, take even the cleanest, highest grade vodka, and pour it into a glass of RODI water... you can see the difference in substances... let it sit, and stir it up a bit again... its not gonna mix properly... how is the OP supposed to keep this stuff mixed perfectly, so that when his 10ml a dose, doser, can add jus the right amount of vodka to his system? and also, how is he gonna keep the vodka in the water from evaporating from the water... take a shot of vodka and leave it over night, half will be gone by the next day... do the same with water, and it wont be nearly as evaporated...

anyhow, aside from all that, vodka dosing is a pretty precise procedure... much more so than throwing some in with some water, whether one feels they have the ratio right, and hoping the doser adds the precise amount that it takes to acheive proper vodka dosing, daily... and i will say again, how will the OP properly vodka dose by doing this method? its a very precise method, that needs to be watched carefully... take this part of the discussion over to the sps forum, where there are many many expereinced vodka dosers, and they will tell you the same...

Im not nearly as educated as you, but i do know a thing or two about growing sps, and vodka dosing in particular... and since you asked perhaps the dumbest question of all, yes i know the difference in proof of alcohols...

[Pallobi]

i really hope the OP keeps us up to date on his precision vodka dosing and sps system, and the no doubt incredible results he will have with such a sloppy method and lazy approach... best of luck to ya, with that sort of method, your gonna need it...

[disc1]

Pallobi:

Sorry to argue, but if your vodka tonics separate on standing I won't be drinking in your bar.

When they are first mixed you sometimes see the inversion, ie. they don't mix instantly especially if they are different temperatures, but once ethanol is dissolved in water it stays there. It might eventually evaporate out, but it will never separate. The solution will stay homogeneous for certain.

I have been drinking scotch and water for many many many years now, and I have yet to have the alcohol fall out of solution on me.


But none of that has to do with why you don't dilute vodka to do your dosing. That has to do with the fact that once you go below about 15 - 20% (30 - 40 proof) you're going to start growing bacteria in it if you leave it open.

[disc1]

Wait, Bartender, I got it. I see where you're coming from. The old shaken or stirred debate. But that has more to do with the other things in the vodka that create the flavor (good vodka kids, the cheap stuff is just grain alcohol and water and has no flavor).

[Pallobi]

listen man, all im saying, is using the damn doser to vodka dose, is completely foolish and not an option... and it isnt gonna work... and im pretty sure you backed that up... its the OP that refuses to beleive that... jus cuz we arent telling him what he wants to hear, to justify and cater to his lack of hands on... which vodka dosing absolutely requires... im jus trying to save the dude a headache or two, and prevent his livestock from suffering down the road... but he doesnt wana hear it...

so again, best of luck OP, you are absolutely gonna need all the luck you can get with that method...

[disc1]

Sorry bud, I get a little carried away at times.

You're right. The point is, you shouldn't in general just go looking for things to dose. It's been pretty well agreed that dosing calcium and alkalinity is essential to keeping a reef tank. And doing that with pumps is OK because you can really mess up pretty bad before you throw things out of whack.

Many of the other things that people dose are of dubious efficacy. I've heard Randy's take on iodine dosing, and I tend to agree with him. Personally I don't know what the amino acids are supposed to be doing, but whatever. They surely aren't hurting anything. Probably feeding bacteria more than anything else.

Speaking of bacteria, the vodka vinegar combo is probably best not dosed from dilute solutions. I don't really have an opinion on whether or not you should dose them to the tank at all. I personally don't, but I understand the benefit.

Dosing bacteria into a tank on a daily basis seems silly to me. The nature of bacterial cultures is that they persist. You shouldn't have to add a species of bacteria more than once. Unless you crash the tank. There are some products that contain bacteria that will supposedly slowly die off in the tank, but even those are recommended for once weekly or biweekly or monthly dosing, definitely not daily.

The Microbacter7 is for new tanks. The bacteria in that bottle will establish an equilibrium state in your tank and that is the population. If you add more, then more die. If you take some away then they multiply. There is no benefit to putting that in there daily.


The instructions on Microbacter7:

Instructions and Guidelines:
Shake product well before using. Mix appropriate volume of MicroBacter7 (see below) with 250-ml (~8 fl. oz.) of aquarium water in a clean container prior to addition to aquarium. If using a pipette to dispense MicroBacter7 below water level of container or aquarium, be sure to thoroughly clean pipette with fresh water prior to placing tube back into MicroBacter7 bottle; failure to do so will contaminate the product. Best results may be obtained by adding mixture to external biological filtration system (if applicable). Do not add to pump intake port(s). For best results, use within 1-year of purchase date. Grossly overdosing MicroBacter7 will not significantly increase the effectiveness of the product, nor the rate at which it enacts changes in aquaria. The following recommendations are based upon extensive testing and will produce the best results in most aquaria.

[Psyops]

Originally Posted by disc1

Hadn't thought of that, but you bring up a really good point Psyops.

Thanks Disc1. Appreciate the comment from a chemist.

OP I have an alternative option for you. There is a product called NO3PO4X by Red Sea. I think the main ingredient is methanol. It recommends on SPS systems to use anywhere from 1-3 mls per 25 gallons 1-2 times per week. You have a large enough volume that you can use a doser if you want. I have a local friend that has used it and had good results with it. He said that (this being only one person's opinion) he has had better results than Vodka. Again just a option to look into for you.

[NewBostonConst]

Thanks disc and psyops for your help:

I will remember the info on Microbactor dosing. I do dose less then what they recommend. I just dose as a maintance type dose. I have it, so I am going to use it up; otherwise it is going to go bad anyway.

I do think Lugo’s is needed and I would rather dose it, then use the manual drop method....After you guys pointing it out that it is susceptible to degrading with light I think I am going to use a quart jug instead of a gallon and just mix it up more often and maybe not dilute it as much. I have some old dark containers of hydrogen peroxide from when my dog got sprayed by a skunk that I will use. Also my doser is in a dark closet so we are good there. I am worried about the clear tubing that brings it to the tank and may have to convert it to black.

I did pick up the amino acids from a fellow reefer that was getting out for almost nothing, so I am going to dose it the same as the Lugo's till it is gone and then reevaluate whether it helped or not.

Originally Posted by Pallobi

i really hope the OP keeps us up to date on his precision vodka dosing and sps system, and the no doubt incredible results he will have with such a sloppy method and lazy approach... best of luck to ya, with that sort of method, your gonna need it...

Dosing is not a sloppy un-precise method(lazy-yes)…..It is what labs and hospitals do to add chemicals over time. It is the best way to do it that I know….do you have a better one?

Just a note Pallobi...I am not currently dosing vodka as stated earlier and have it hooked to the doser incase I ever needed to. One instance that I might use it is if I were to add more rock and had a spike that I wanted to bring down or added more fish and nitrites spiked. All I have to do is push a couple buttons to turn it on. I would rather add chemical over time instead of all at once as a doser “precisely” can. My doser can dose one ml at a time if I needed so it is fine for vodka. Also I believe vinegar has to be dosed 8 times more by volume then vodka so it will defiantly work....

Pallobi - Auto dosers are great pieces of equipment. It is evident that you have never used one. They make things so easy. You should research them. You have an extremely nice tank and are obliviously smart when it comes to the norm on this site. I do wish you luck and hope you branch out and learn other scientific methods. Maybe take a chemistry class.

Originally Posted by Pallobi

listen man, all im saying, is using the damn doser to vodka dose, is completely foolish and not an option... and it isnt gonna work... and im pretty sure you backed that up... its the OP that refuses to beleive that... jus cuz we arent telling him what he wants to hear, to justify and cater to his lack of hands on... which vodka dosing absolutely requires... im jus trying to save the dude a headache or two, and prevent his livestock from suffering down the road... but he doesnt wana hear it...

I have been doing this longer then you and have tried many things over the years. I have had many diys projects, some worked and some didn’t. I have made mistakes but at all times I am learning and trying things. I am an engineer and love this hobby for the challenges and seeing what others have done. Good luck to all.....

[disc1]

Originally Posted by NewBostonConst

Thanks disc and psyops for your help:

I will remember the info on Microbactor dosing. I do dose less then what they recommend. I just dose as a maintance type dose. Maintain what? All you are doing is dumping bacteria in the tank, the population isn't going to change, so you have killed so many bacteria. What you are now dosing is phosphate. I mean who purposefully adds phosphate to their tank?I have it, so I am going to use it up; otherwise it is going to go bad anyway. Now there's some real logic

I do think Lugo’s is needed and I would rather dose it, then use the manual drop method....After you guys pointing it out that it is susceptible to degrading with light I think I am going to use a quart jug instead of a gallon and just mix it up more often and maybe not dilute it as much. I have some old dark containers of hydrogen peroxide from when my dog got sprayed by a skunk that I will use. Also my doser is in a dark closet so we are good there. I am worried about the clear tubing that brings it to the tank and may have to convert it to black.

I did pick up the amino acids from a fellow reefer that was getting out for almost nothing, so I am going to dose it the same as the Lugo's till it is gone and then reevaluate whether it helped or not.
Again, you logic here astounds.



Dosing is not a sloppy un-precise method(lazy-yes)…..It is what labs and hospitals do to add chemicals over time. Yes but only where appropriate. Some things are best dosed once per day or even less. It is the best way to do it that I know….do you have a better one? That depends on what you want to dose.

Just a note Pallobi...I am not currently dosing vodka as stated earlier and have it hooked to the doser incase I ever needed to. One instance that I might use it is if I were to add more rock and had a spike that I wanted to bring down or added more fish and nitrites spiked. All I have to do is push a couple buttons to turn it on. I would rather add chemical over time instead of all at once as a doser “precisely” can. My doser can dose one ml at a time if I needed so it is fine for vodka. Also I believe vinegar has to be dosed 8 times more by volume then vodka so it will defiantly work....

I always thought that half the point of vodka dosing was the daily spike. That's what sets the bacteria off, then you skim them out right? Will a constant dose have the same effect? I know Randy recommends two doses per day, and they are timed with the lights somehow so that you get the spike at the right time to get maximum effect. I know it's supposed to make a difference adding vodka in the morning vs in the evening.

Pallobi - Auto dosers are great pieces of equipment. It is evident that you have never used one. They make things so easy. You should research them. You have an extremely nice tank and are obliviously smart when it comes to the norm on this site. I do wish you luck and hope you branch out and learn other scientific methods. Maybe take a chemistry class.
And like so many other wonderful pieces of equipment, they can be abused. Are you really preaching scientific method here. After you assert the logic, "I have it so I'm going to put it in my tank no matter what it does because otherwise it will go bad."



I have been doing this longer then you and have tried many things over the years. I have had many diys projects, some worked and some didn’t. I have made mistakes but at all times I am learning and trying things. I am an engineer and love this hobby for the challenges and seeing what others have done. Good luck to all.....

[Pallobi]

take your randomly dosed, when you feel its needed, idea and thoughts on your vodka dosing method over to the sps keepers forum, and see what everyone else there tells you... if they all agree with you, and i mean experienced vodlka dosers, i will eat my words...

[organism]

Originally Posted by Psyops

OP I have an alternative option for you. There is a product called NO3PO4X by Red Sea. I think the main ingredient is methanol. It recommends on SPS systems to use anywhere from 1-3 mls per 25 gallons 1-2 times per week. You have a large enough volume that you can use a doser if you want. I have a local friend that has used it and had good results with it. He said that (this being only one person's opinion) he has had better results than Vodka. Again just a option to look into for you.

It sounds like just another carbon source only with a fancy name and bigger price tag. Prodibio, zeovit and brightwell have their carbon sources too, but imo vodka does the same thing at about 1/100th the price. All they do is grow your bacteria populations

[organism]

Originally Posted by NewBostonConst

I do think Lugo’s is needed and I would rather dose it, then use the manual drop method....

I thought the first time was a typo, but dude it's Lugol's. Two L's. L U G O L' S.

After you guys pointing it out that it is susceptible to degrading with light I think I am going to use a quart jug instead of a gallon and just mix it up more often and maybe not dilute it as much.

I know it's been said too many times, but to be more direct: do you have an iodine test kit? Would you dose for calcium, magnesium and alk if you had no way of testing for them and were just picking random dosages? A doser is of no help whatsoever if you're basically playing "monkey writing hamlet" with your reef chemistry. Yes, hospitals and labs use dosers, but would you let a hospital randomly shoot you up with something they kind of guess humans might need? Because that's what you're doing to your tank.

Pallobi - Auto dosers are great pieces of equipment. It is evident that you have never used one. They make things so easy. You should research them.

Overall I've got to give you props, honestly it's rare to find people who are just so effortlessly condescending and dismissive of anything that doesn't jive with what they'd like reality to be. It's impressive, seriously, downright impressive.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by NewBostonConst

Pallobi - Auto dosers are great pieces of equipment. It is evident that you have never used one. They make things so easy. You should research them.

Originally Posted by organism

Overall I've got to give you props, honestly it's rare to find people who are just so effortlessly condescending and dismissive of anything that doesn't jive with what they'd like reality to be. It's impressive, seriously, downright impressive.

On the interweb? Nooooooo.




The reason for the suggestion of the methanol source (I assume) is because methanol is bacteriostatic to a much lower concentration than ethanol. So there's a much smaller chance of growing bacteria in your dosing container and ending up dosing phosphate instead of carbon.

The caveat is that methanol also evaporates out of water at a higher rate. So you have to keep the bottle closed, yet somehow allow it to vent so you can pull liquid out.

[NewBostonConst]

Points taken....thanks guys.

I will suspend the Microbactor and see what happens. My current setup is 9 months old. I read the instructions when I started using it when I setup the tank and this has been a good refresher.

I do have a iodine test kit and it always reads on the low side. I got my last tank to the NSW level and didn't like how much I had to put in. If I do stop dosing it my sps colors light up. I am extremely happy with their coloration right now. I am going to keep that up....

AND AGAIN FOR ONE LAST TIME.....I have never dosed vodka on this tank and have no need to. My nitrate levels are under 2 and the tank seems to do better with nitrate around 5. I did dose vinegar about 4 months ago when the tank was over 10 and I had a cyno problem, but haven't done it since.