Starting Red Sea NO3-PO4 X...Anyone else use it?

[RedSea Aviad]

Dear Joe,
NOPOX should not cause an increase in PO4.
Did you stop using a GFO reactor or a different method of nutrient reduction?

You are not rude at all!
As the videos are very illustrative and I think anyone can take something out of them, this is the more hard core scientific version of NOPOX nutrient reduction.


Keep me posted.
All the best my friend,
Aviad

[JPMagyar]

Thank-you Aviad. I had read that article previously, but didn't think to reread it for an answer to my questions.

As part of starting to dose NOPOX, I took off my Phosban Reactor, and removed all the carbon from my filter trays. So at this moment I am using only a skimmer and NOPOX.

Is it possible that I reduced the nitrates too quickly? Where are the "bacterial flocks" that bind phosphate supposed to occur: on some surface or in the open water column, or somewhere else? Is there any other mechanism that might cause the balance of types of bacteria growth to become unbalanced?

I will look hard to see if I can find a source of leaching phosphate in my routine, but I am feeding the same I was prior to using NOPOX, and I am always diligent about siphoning my sandbed, sump, and frag tank regularly.


Clearly NOPOX is doing an outstanding job of reducing my nitrates, and I am certain I will solve this mystery of high PO4 readings soon enough. I am very happy to state that the frequency with which I clean my glass has gone down from daily to once every third day or so, and I assume this is due to the lower nitrates. Not to mention that what cyano I had on a few surfaces has gone down as well so overall I am very happy with NOPOX. As I said I look forward to "getting it right"!


Joe

[JPMagyar]

Once I get going I just can't shut off my mind, and here's what I was thinking after I went to Wikipedia and read this:

Polyphosphate-accumulating organisms (PAOs) are a group of bacteria that, under certain conditions, facilitate the removal of large amounts of phosphorus from wastewater in a process, called enhanced biological phosphorus removal (EBPR). PAOs accomplish this removal of phosphate by accumulating it within their cells as polyphosphate. PAOs are by no means the only bacteria that can accumulate polyphosphate within their cells and in fact, the production of polyphosphate is a widespread ability among bacteria. However, the PAOs have many characteristics that other organisms that accumulate polyphosphate do not have, that make them amenable to use in wastewater treatment. Specifically, this is the ability to consume simple carbon compounds (energy source) without the presence of an external electron acceptor (such as nitrate or oxygen) by generating energy from internally stored polyphosphate and glycogen[1]. Most other bacteria cannot consume under these conditions and therefore PAOs gain a selective advantage within the mixed microbial community present in the activated sludge. Therefore, wastewater treatment plants that operate for enhanced biological phosphorus removal have an anaerobic tank (where there is no nitrate or oxygen present as external electron acceptor) prior to the other tanks to give PAOs preferential access to the simple carbon compounds in the wastewater that is influent to the plant.

I recalled from the Red Sea article:

The most common PAO’s or Poly-P bacteria are the PHA’s that accumulate phosphate in a two stage process of aerobic / anoxic and anaerobic conditions. These bacteria compete with the denitrifiers for the carbon source and in anaerobic conditions they may release PO4-3 back to the water

and. . .

Rapid reduction of nitrate over phosphate will lead to a rapid proliferation of anaerobic PHA bacteria

Which brought me to another question:

Do the PAOs exist in a healthy tank naturally or does NOPOX add them?


and then another thought:


Is it possible that I developed an "imbalance" between the types of anaerobic bacteria and now either phosphate is not being consumed in the right proportion or perhaps even some PAO's are releasing PO4-3 back into the water? Is that even possible? Is there some reason to strongly discount that possibility?


Thanks again,

Joe

[bertoni]

For bacteria, if the conditions are right, the bacteria show up. That's pretty much a standard assumption. That said, we don't know what types of bacteria will compete most effectively in our tanks, and the population might go through cycles. The rise in the phosphate might be due to a change in the bacterial population that favors nitrogen consumption, or some other factor, much as you suggest. I'd use some GFO at this point, since the kit seems okay.

[pciscott]

Bertoni your post count is mind boggling and I thought i was addicted! Good advice as always and my recommendation with my results is to keep the GFO online.

2 months in with nopox and Energy A and B.

First off let me start my experience with a little background of the system I am using the Red Sea Product in. The system is 125 gallon grow out tank that is 80% SPS it is a 2'x4' frag tank hooked up to a large carson bin with 300 lbs of live rock curing for a new display. About 4 months before this test I won 50lbs of Marco Rock at a club meeting and added it to my rock bin. I did not realize that this set off an algae episode that took a 5 gallon bucket of GFO to get past.

I hate Dry Rock that is not properly cured!

At the final stages of my problem I decided to try the Red Sea System. When I started my Algae was thinning and I was having to pull out less and less yet the background because some of my corals were stressed from heavy weekly GFO changes and the GHA.

My parameters when I started

Alk 8
CA 420
mag 1250
nitrate 5
p04 .04

I have now been running the product for 2 months and my tank has almost no visible algae. I did loose a few pieces in the first few weeks of starting this product, but it is hard to say if they were already stressed and if you look at SPS wrong it can STN or RTN and this is part of the game we play. I never pulled my GFO offline either but I have not changed the media this whole month and before I was changing every 2 weeks. I dose 10 mils of each product and dropped my dose to 5 mills of nopox when my nitrates were less than 1.

My parameters today
Alk 8
CA 450 adjusted dose down 5 mils a day
Mag 1300
Nitrate .25 on Red Sea kit
P04 .02

I have great colors and with Red Sea Colors test kit I figured my Iron was low and adding their Iron supplement has made my reds pop way better.

Today I just started doubling the dose to 20 mils each A and B and I will get back to you if this moves my Nitrate up or I see better colors with my ULNS.
I do feed my fish twice a day but I do not feed any other coral foods so the cost of the system is saving some of the other products I was using.

I like the system so much I just bought 8 buckets of Red Sea Blue Bucket Salts from BRS on their Doorbuster sale so I will be getting a salt that mirrors my parameters very close as my old salt Seachem Reef is a little high in the CA department.

Thank you Red Sea for doing your homework and your test kits are awesome! I have a couple recommendations that would make this system much easier to use. Make Reef Energy A and B not have to be kept cold as this makes it tough to dose and for those of us with larger systems sell it in Bulk?

For any of you who are going to try and bring your system down to ULNS parameters If you do not feed your corals will suffer and that is the beauty of Reef Energy A and B and what makes the system easy to adopt as measured amounts of tested concoctions are better served than a squirt of this and a lump of that.

I will try to take some pictures to show off some of my colors in this tank so you can see how it is working just need to figure out the new camera a little better as the pictures do not come out that great on auto and my camera skills need to be improved.

Good luck and I give this product a A, make it easy and I will add the Plus! Thanks Red Sea.

[sabbath]

I agree that reef energy needs to come in larger containers!

Sent from my mobile

[RedSea Aviad]

Joe, I love your challenging questions!
It is possible to reduce NO3 too fast, you need to let your corals and system adjust to the change.
The PO4 reduction, as mentioned in the article is coupled, in the rocks and in the water column.
Unbalanced NO3 – PO4 ratio can be caused by excess “export” of PO4 by the aquarium, usually P- rich foods and overfeeding, new dry rocks and so on…
All the bacteria is already found in the tank, it’s just a matter of encouraging the right strain to grow and proliferate, NOPOX does NOT contain bacteria.

Pciscott- thank you for the warm words.
I’m very happy to read (you can let us see as well) that you got the results you were looking for using our products.
We at Red Sea, welcome suggestions and reviews from our users and would love to improve in order to better suit your needs.
As for your request for bulk size supplements, thank you for the suggestion- I see the need and I hope that in the near future we can supply and fulfill it.
I’m always here for you on Red Sea’s Forum on RC.
Keep me posted and share your thoughts .
All the best and good luck,
Aviad

[PeterR]

Aviad,
About 12 months ago I began dosing NOPOX on a small reef tank.
Results were great except for 1 thing
Whenever I turned lift pump on after a feeding stop or whatever,
there would be a large ( I assume) algal bloom blow back into the tank.
It almost looked like I had just fed the tank a cube of brineshrimp.
I am keen to put my large tank on NOPOX but am a bit hesitant because of the
magnitude of these (algal blooms)?
Could you pl explain what might be going on here?
Peter R

[RedSea Aviad]

Originally Posted by PeterR

Aviad,
About 12 months ago I began dosing NOPOX on a small reef tank.
Results were great except for 1 thing
Whenever I turned lift pump on after a feeding stop or whatever,
there would be a large ( I assume) algal bloom blow back into the tank.
It almost looked like I had just fed the tank a cube of brineshrimp.
I am keen to put my large tank on NOPOX but am a bit hesitant because of the
magnitude of these (algal blooms)?
Could you pl explain what might be going on here?
Peter R

Give me a wider review of your tank.
I guess you meant bacterial bloom (milky\cloudy water).
I can’t assess what might have caused it, without knowing all the little details.
Let me know,
Aviad

[PeterR]

Aviad,
The water was perfectly clear
It was as though this stuff was building up on the hoses etc and were dislodged
when I turned the pump off/on

[PeterR]

I'm not saying it was necessarily a problem but when I ceased using NOPOX
it didn't show again
It looked almost like brineshrimp or ?

[FAITOJAN]

MY FIRST TIME bacterial bloom ocurred but in 3 days my tank are cristal clear and better polip extension in my sps

[RedSea Aviad]

Hi,
It may happen when you supplement to much NOPOX, more than the system can take.
If you gradually go up in dose, it can prevent it.
If you want to supplement 3 ml\ 25gal, I can recommend to start with a small dose and go up, over 1-2 weeks.

Good luck,
Aviad

[Sawen]

Just an update from an earlier post. Before using NOPOX, I had a hair algae infestation and had 4 ppm nitrates testing with the Red Sea Pro test kit. After using NOPOX, in my last post, most of the hair algae had gone and my nitrates had gone down to 0.50 ppm.

Since that last post, I have successfully stabilized my nitrates at 0.25 ppm, and basically all hair algae has gone. Cyano had started, never at a dramatic level, but less NOPOx was dosed and now there is just about no trace of cyano anymore. I am very satisfied with this product, and will continue using it every day. I now dose just 0.50 ml a day for my whole 25 gallon cube and succeed in keeping my nitrates at 0.25 ppm.

My skimmer has been skimming much more stuff since using this product. I had read that before using a carbon source but was still astonished by the increase in skimmate. I do however have a slight white film on the glass surfaces of my tank. I take it out once a week with a magnet but I prefer this to the green algaes I had to whipe out three times a week with a magnet before using NOPOX.

A heater cooked my tank to 103 Tuesday and I expect a chemical reaction within my tank soon. A possible algae outburst? With so little nitrate and phosphates? I hope not.

[RedSea Aviad]

Hello Sawen,
I'm happy to read about your great results, you did exactly what you should have done, and managed to control both algae and cyano.
That's the fine balance that I'm talking about, great job!
About your overheating, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
I hope you will pass it with as little casualties as possible.
Prepare as much water as possible for an emergency water change just in case.
Good luck,
Aviad

[89Foxbody]

I'm still dosing every day and I have all but eliminated my cyano, but the hair algae persists. Thought for sure it would be gone by now but its still very much alive and well seemingly. I'm assuming I have po4 leaching from my rocks/sand due to earlier poor husbandry. I have a hob fuge with chaeto that I recently upgraded the lighting so we'll see if that helps as well. I'm dosing 3ml a day to 37g, last test showed NO3 at 4 ppm.

[RedSea Aviad]

Hi,
The struggle with the GHA is a long one, as long as you have high NO3 levels it would keep growing.
Try supplementing 5 ml of NOPOX a day, in order to drop NO3 levels to around 0.25-0.5ppm.
Keep monitoring once-twice a week and adjust your dose.
Be careful not to go under 0.25ppm.
After you maintain 0.25ppm for a few weeks you will see the improvement, keep removing the GHA manually to accelerate the process.
Keep me posted.
Good luck,
Aviad

[JPMagyar]

Just a few notes on my first month or so using NOPOX. To begin with here is a list of readings. I should note that I took a Nitrate reading on Oct. 6th showing 2.5 ppm, but I used an Elos test kit. That reading plus the fact that I had a problem with cyano bacteria caused me to try NOPOX. Today I have traces of cyano, but in general it has disappeared.

• 10/26 1.00 ppm nitrate 0.36 ppm phosphate
• 11/09 0.50 ppm nitrate 0.02 ppm phosphate
• 11/22 0.25 ppm nitrate 0.08 ppm phosphate
• 11/27 0.00 ppm nitrate 0.10 ppm phosphate
• 12/08 0.00 ppm nitrate 0.30 ppm phosphate
• 12/11 0.25 ppm nitrate 0.04 ppm phosphate

BUT

I have some important notes:

1) I have listed readings of 0.10 and 0.30 for phosphate which are not on the color chart supplied but I decided that the color of the sample was in between the colors supplied so I created a reading in between the numbers supplied based on which color seemed closer.
2) On December 8th I decided to stop NOPOX for a couple days and added 250 ml of PO4x4 in a reactor to try and bring the phosphate down.
3) I started with 30 ml a day of NOPOX reduced to 20 ml then 10 ml and stopped dosing on the 8th.
4) I intend to take the PO4x4 off line today and resume dosing NOPOX at 5 ml.






Questions for Aviad:


1) Is it possible that NOPOX can not keep phosphate in line if a tank is heavily fed?
2) Do you think if I simply control nitrate at 0.25 ppm using NOPOX then phosphate will eventually become controlled?
3) Other than potentially reducing phosphate to undesirably low levels can media such as PO4x4 chemically interfere with NOPOX?
4) Given what you know of my attempts so far do you have any advice on how to proceed?


Thanks as always,



Joe

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm concerned that this thread has simply become a sales pitch by Red Sea. Many questionable things have been posted as facts when in in reality they are the opinion of the company selling the product.

If you simply want manufacturers directions, I suggest you take it up in their forum.

If you want unbiased scientific discussion, then this is the place and any participating manufacturers must be prepared to justify things they claim.

[HighlandReefer]

Hear, hear!

[RegalAngel]

Originally Posted by JPMagyar

Just a few notes on my first month or so using NOPOX. To begin with here is a list of readings. I should note that I took a Nitrate reading on Oct. 6th showing 2.5 ppm, but I used an Elos test kit. That reading plus the fact that I had a problem with cyano bacteria caused me to try NOPOX. Today I have traces of cyano, but in general it has disappeared.

• 10/26 1.00 ppm nitrate 0.36 ppm phosphate
• 11/09 0.50 ppm nitrate 0.02 ppm phosphate
• 11/22 0.25 ppm nitrate 0.08 ppm phosphate
• 11/27 0.00 ppm nitrate 0.10 ppm phosphate
• 12/08 0.00 ppm nitrate 0.30 ppm phosphate
• 12/11 0.25 ppm nitrate 0.04 ppm phosphate

You are using an Elos color nitrate test kit? It shows a 5-75ppm color reading...how are you able to get nitrate readings in such a low range?
OK, I guess you are using the Red Sea test kit....

Thanks!

[JPMagyar]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I'm concerned that this thread has simply become a sales pitch by Red Sea. Many questionable things have been posted as facts when in in reality they are the opinion of the company selling the product.

If you simply want manufacturers directions, I suggest you take it up in their forum.

If you want unbiased scientific discussion, then this is the place and any participating manufacturers must be prepared to justify things they claim.

Randy,

With all due respect to a man who has arguably done more to further the understanding of the chemistry involved in saltwater aquariums than all others combined, I must say that I am offended.

I vehemently disagree with the comment that this thread is a "sales pitch". I believe I have begun to present interesting data with regards to changes in my own reef. I do not have a chemistry degree, but I did graduate with honors from Dartmouth College with a degree in Electrical Engineering. I do have some understanding, therefore, of what "science" is and I pride myself on taking my reef and my hobby very seriously. I do not have any affiliation with Red Sea, but I do believe that recent research clearly indicates that bacterial counts in an aquarium can be maintained at an elevated level through the use of carbon based additives, be that vodka, sugar, or in this case NOPOX. The fact that Red Sea does not provide the proprietary recipe for this product does not, I believe, negate the valid discussion of the chemical changes I am seeing in my tank. If Red Sea, through it's spokesperson, chooses to post responses here and you find them lacking in clarity than I urge you to ask specific questions rather than trying to tell the contributors to this thread to take it to another forum.


Sincerely,

Joe Peck
Pound Ridge, NY

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are welcome to say whatever you want about any product. Red Sea is not. That is why they have their own forum. I expect this thread is a violation of the user agreement, and many threads have been removed for much less as the rules governing companies are very strict.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Specifically, these are some of the things that concern me in this thread in the absence of people specifically asking for them:

1. Manufacturer links to other web sites of their own. This was done many times in this thread.


2. Promotion of their company and products, rather than scientific discussion about how something works (which I more than most folks encourage manufacturers to do in this forum). Example:

We, at Red Sea, test our products long before we release them to the market.
Even after the products are out on the market, we take every feedback from forums\vendors\phone calls, very seriously and double check ourselves, in order to insure hobbyists' satisfaction.
We know that the only way people will be happy with us, is by providing them the solution to their problems and getting their tank to look amazing!
If any of you have any more questions about our products visit Red Sea’s website, or ask me over Red Sea’s Forum on RC.
I’ll be happy to assist.


3. Comments tossed out dissing other competing products or methods with no supporting evidence whatsoever:

Since I don't know all the tech. data for the other shelf products, I’ll skip to the home made products.

As appose to those concoctions and mixes, NO3-PO4-X has a balanced ratio of all the ingredients,

That statement is contrary to my own opinion, but it is stated here as if it were an accepted fact that there even is such a thing as balance of organics. Such potentially misleading things can certainly be posted by ordinary members, or even from manufacturers in the context of a discussion of the pros and cons of products, but not, IMO, as a potentially misleading way to promote a product.

The same applies to the suggestion that trace elements in this product are adding benefit, stated as a fact, with no supporting information at all.

[JPMagyar]

I agree some of Aviad's posts are, in so far as you have outlined, in violation of RC's rules, although I would argue that the severity is open to debate among reasonable individuals. However, this thread was not started by Aviad nor has he continued the thread. If his posts are in violation I suggest he be gently reminded directly to keep his comments scientific, and the users of this forum be allowed to continue their discussion without being condescended to and accused of shilling for a manufacturer.