Need help with ich

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by alanbates12

The ICH related to the herpes may not be a good example to those who are not familiar with medicine. I did not right it but I understand herpes can flair from stress. So the author was relating the two facts. As for eradicating Ich you can never be 100% positive. You and your friend have maintained a stable environment. Ich is most likely in 99.9% of hobbyist. Thats not my findings but you can read about it in the links I posted before. Look Ich is out there. We are all going to have to deal with it. There are treatments to manage it. There is nothing to eradicate it or it would not be a problem.

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

[b0bab0ey]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.

Nothing is 100%. There are always exceptions to every rule. Is there some strain of Ich out there that can survive hypo and/or copper sulfate after one full month... or not starve after 9 weeks without a fish host to feed on? Yeah, I guess there's a very small chance of that. But in 30+ years of saltwater I've yet to encounter it!

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by b0bab0ey

Nothing is 100%. There are always exceptions to every rule. Is there some strain of Ich out there that can survive hypo and/or copper sulfate after one full month... or not starve after 9 weeks without a fish host to feed on? Yeah, I guess there's a very small chance of that. But in 30+ years of saltwater I've yet to encounter it!

yeah it seems like people have been talking about a different strain of ich that can withstand even 1.009 of hypo. i haven't seen it myself yet either.

right, nothing is 100%, but we do as much as we can i guess.

[bperau]

Yeah ill try hypo when I return home. I have been keeping the tank at 74 degrees during the day and it goes to like 71 at night. I know your suppose to keep it at 78 but should i not try adjusting that till I get the ich straightened out

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

Just to avoid any predictable problem; Roget does list "eradicate" as a synonym for "eliminate".

[bperau]

Any reccomendations on what I should do with the temp?

[alanbates12]

Yes I agree.

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.

[alanbates12]

Never said those things would not work. I QT my fish and used copper for 8 weeks. Later had a problem with ich. Not saying this will always happen. I agree with the whole article, thats why I posted the link but I do have other ideas. The article was posted to back up some other information. for another RC member.

Originally Posted by sandwi54

not sure how you were reading the articles that you posted yourself, but it clearly states:

B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon.

[alanbates12]

Yes and it also states:
Keep in mind, however, that no treatment procedure, regardless of how well thought out or comprehensive, can guarantee 100% effectiveness at eradicating this, or any disease
So I was giving you what you ask for. I'm not against copper, hypo. I did it myself but it did not work. 8 weeks my DT tank was without fish, they were in a QT and a month after putting them back in the DT had a signs of ich. So please I was giving you a few examples that go along with the person's quote like you ask. They are both great articals that support copper, hypo but also state feeding and good stable enviornment is key. It also states, Just stating it's not 100%

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Just to avoid any predictable problem; Roget does list "eradicate" as a synonym for "eliminate".

[alanbates12]

This is part of the following article I posted here before,

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm,

Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.

A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).

Originally Posted by bperau

Any reccomendations on what I should do with the temp?

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by alanbates12

Yes and it also states:
Keep in mind, however, that no treatment procedure, regardless of how well thought out or comprehensive, can guarantee 100% effectiveness at eradicating this, or any disease
So I was giving you what you ask for. I'm not against copper, hypo. I did it myself but it did not work. 8 weeks my DT tank was without fish, they were in a QT and a month after putting them back in the DT had a signs of ich. So please I was giving you a few examples that go along with the person's quote like you ask. They are both great articals that support copper, hypo but also state feeding and good stable enviornment is key. It also states, Just stating it's not 100%

"Feeding and good stable enviornment is key"
This is the "key" to keeping any SW animal healthy. The KEY to eradicating ich is to kill it. By poisoning it(copper), "exploding it (hypo), and/or starving it (tank -transfer & fallow tank).

[alanbates12]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

"Feeding and good stable environment is key"
This is the "key" to keeping any SW animal healthy. The KEY to eradicating ich is to kill it. By poisoning it(copper), "exploding it (hypo), and/or starving it (tank -transfer & fallow tank).

Yes good stable environment is key. The KEY to eradicating ich is to keep it out of the display tank DT. Nothing is 100% and anyone in this hobby is going to be better off with a QT. I believe thats the KEY is to first keep it out of our tank.

Reality is that people have it in their tank and thats the question asked in this thread. If you have the means to QT your fish do so and if they show signs of something ID it and treat it with copper, hypo, dips, starving. If you do not have the means to QT well a good quality diet is key and I think we all know how important water quality is.

I did take the time to QT my fish but the pesky little ich found it's way back into my DT. I went overboard and QT my fish for 8 weeks using copper and it still found it's way into my tank. I did water changes and kept my copper at therapeutic levels. This is my point that even doing everything you can do you still may find ich in your tank. Now since I've been feeding well my fish have been fine for almost 1 year so I hope I'm not faced with ich anymore. I think it was the stress of moving back into the DT and bad diet that gave ich a window. Now remember my tank was without fish for 8 weeks. My fish were treated with copper for 8 weeks but ich found a way to hang on.

So in a nutshell the best possible way to not have ich is to not introduce it into your tank and the best possible way is to QT fish and treat for ich if they show signs. But nothing is 100%. If I had it to do all over I would have QT all my fish.

[Reefaddict24]

Tagging along.

One question. If fish is already stressed with ich. And people say to remove the fish and QT in another tank. That is a bold statement to say since its harder to catch all the fishes out of the tank without removing majority of your rocks in which would stress out the fish even more.

I'm only saying this because i have a 400g tank that has the dimensions of 72x32x32. Recently i acquired an angel that was said didn't pick on any corals. Then found out he did eat corals so i had to remove that only fish. The process of fish removal is a big headache and took hours. The best way was to remove majority or the rocks and that lead to movement of sand and debris. By the time i was done and removed the fish, my tank was really cloudy i had to put back in the rocks. After this process i soon realized that some of my tangs acquired ich.

The only thing thats concerning me is that now people said to remove the fish and separate them. They got ich from the stress of removing another tank mate. Wouldn't me attempting to remove them cause them to stress out even more?

[Reefaddict24]

Has anyone ever just let time heal the fish with ich and they cured them self up?
Or is it a for sure thing that ich with and with out a doubt spread and kill off every fish?

[bperau]

And that's the problem I ran into. I have a large tank and its easier to take out all the rock and do hypo in the dt. On the other hand though i get alot of people telling me to just keep the fish unstressed and a healthy fish most of the time will cure itself but its always going to be in your tank. On the other hand alot of people say to to hypo or copper so idk

[b0bab0ey]

Originally Posted by Reefaddict24

Has anyone ever just let time heal the fish with ich and they cured them self up?
Or is it a for sure thing that ich with and with out a doubt spread and kill off every fish?

In most cases, Ich is introduced into an aquarium by a single fish. So the number of parasites early on are few and far between. Most fishes immune systems can handle this and fight the parasites off. However, as time goes on the parasite reproduces and grows greater in number. It's this numbers game that ultimately overwhelms a fish's immune system and kills it.

IMO this is how some hobbyists "manage Ich" and sometimes even think they've beaten it. They're able to bolster their fishes immune systems (vitamins, garlic?) and/or keep the number of Ich parasites down (UV perhaps?) The problem is this is a waiting game that ultimately the Ich parasites are going to win. It might take weeks, months or even years if you're really lucky. But as long as there's just 1 Ich parasite alive & well in your tank, the opportune time will come (power loss, sudden temp drop) and they'll spread like wildfire and attack. That's just what parasites do.

[mess7777]

I can feel the pain in this thread. It is amazing how foolish we can be in this hobby. I did the 8 week hypo thing, leaving my tank fallow. I lost one fish to a bacterial infection in the QT, luckily it seemed isolated to only 1 fish. The rest showed no ich symptoms for the entire time. My tank went to hell in the meantime, as the tangs were my algae control. Some of my rocks were pretty much beds of algae.

I added corals and inverts during the 8 week period, my tank was still new and I wanted it to look nicer. Either this or a bad QT(I don't think I screwed up hypo though) was my downfall. Soon after putting everyone back I had a couple white spots show up. Luckily they subsided and all was well.

Fast forward a few months, no problems and no plans to add more fish. I sold off the QT tank(I have space limitations).

Well, I decided to do the old blow off the rocks with a turkey baster trick. This apparantly released a bunch of toments just hanging around waiting to kick some ***. Now I have more ich than I have ever seen in my tank.

I also have no QT anymore and no desire to remove the tank inhabitants and do this crap all over again.

So I guess what I am saying, I feel your pain. It takes extreme dedication and willpower to do things properly, QT all inverts, corals, and fish. This is the ONLY way you will keep it out. The excitement of putting new animals on display won for me, and I now pay that price, possibly with the loss of many of my fish.

Best of luck to everyone here.

[b0bab0ey]

Originally Posted by mess7777

The excitement of putting new animals on display won for me, and I now pay that price, possibly with the loss of many of my fish.

I hear ya there. Back when I was a kid, I loved the thrill of finding a cool new fish and putting it right in my DT. Seeing how it looked with all the other fish. I guess back then I was (mostly) just one of the lucky ones. Not anymore... I try that nowadays and all hell breaks loose.

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by mess7777

I added corals and inverts during the 8 week period, my tank was still new and I wanted it to look nicer. Either this or a bad QT(I don't think I screwed up hypo though) was my downfall. Soon after putting everyone back I had a couple white spots show up. Luckily they subsided and all was well.

This is the issue. Even though corals and inverts are immune to ich, ich can still hitchhike with them into the DT. If you add any inverts during the 8 week period, that resets the clock. the possibility of inverts carrying ich into the DT is small, but it's significant enough that we recommend quarantining them as well.

[mess7777]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

This is the issue. Even though corals and inverts are immune to ich, ich can still hitchhike with them into the DT. If you add any inverts during the 8 week period, that resets the clock. the possibility of inverts carrying ich into the DT is small, but it's significant enough that we recommend quarantining them as well.

Trust me I know, but didn't mean to hijack this thread.

[Reefaddict24]

This really sucks. My oldest Hippo tang is fully covered in ich since its stressed from me having to catch another fish and taking it out.

My tank is so huge i can't get the hippo out. Only thing i can do now is watch and hopefully he gets better.

[Reefaddict24]

anyone heard about this?

Dr. G's anti-parasitic Rx medicatated frozen banquet?

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Reefaddict24

This really sucks. My oldest Hippo tang is fully covered in ich since its stressed from me having to catch another fish and taking it out.

My tank is so huge i can't get the hippo out. Only thing i can do now is watch and hopefully he gets better.

Your tang is covered with ich because you have ich in your tank, not because it stressed. ; possibly as a result of not using a QT? Stress doesnt cause ich, ich does.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Reefaddict24

anyone heard about this?

Dr. G's anti-parasitic Rx medicatated frozen banquet?

This stuff has been mentioned on this forum, I believe. I've never heard of it working on anything; although it claims to cure everything. If, and when, a reef-safe parasite remedy shows up, it will be common knowledge in no time. Copper, tank-transfer, or hypo; all done in a QT. That is the list of ich cures that work.

[bperau]

Well I'm heading back to town and should arrive tomorrow. Iv been updated all the fish are still alive. I plan to take out all the liverock, coral, and uncertain and place them in a couple qt tanks since thereafter so much rock, then do hypo in my 180g. Should I hook up a filter capable of being used for a 180g since ill be taking out all the rock?