one and only

[MrTuskfish]

The " New to the hobby" section always has posts concerning a first cycle. Hobbyists watch their first tank as ammonia increases, then nitrite, then nitrate. Then nitrate starts to decrease. most of these tanks do not yet have fuges, certainly don't have de-nitrators, don't have a skimmer running (there isn't anything to skim yet), and seldom have a DSB. If the LR doesn't harbor anaerobic bacteria; where did the nitrate go?

Bob Fenner's "The Conscience Marine Aquarist' gives a great history of the evolution of LR as a source for de-nitrification including this quote: " The best quality rock, from the aquarists point of view, is highly porous and well-colonized by both nitrfying (aerobic) and de-nitrfying (anaerobic) bacteria." This chapter in Fenner's book, perhaps the most significant book in the hobby, is full of info on LR & anaerobic bacteria.

Any book I have will say the same thing about LR. From Mike Paletta's 'The New Marine Aquarium": "Unlike most active biological filtration devices, live rock can also act as a site where de-nitrification (the conversion of nitrate to harmless nitrogen gas) can takes place in anaerobic, or very low, oxygen conditions."

There have been many advances in removing nitrate; but LR does culture anaerobic bacteria, the reefkeeping side of the hobby never would have been possible without it. The pioneering "Berlin System" uses only LR and a skimmer. Skimmers will not remove nitrate, they just remove organics before they turn to nitrates, taking a load off the various bacteria. These systems could not possibly support a reef unless anaerobic bacteria was living deep in the porous LR. I have seen several Berlin system tanks with zero nitrate....impossible with skimming alone.

There was a great post here a while back that really detailed the anaerobic & anaerobic bacteria working together in the LR to eliminate nitrate I wish I could remember the poster.

[Thatgrimguy]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

The " New to the hobby" section always has posts concerning a first cycle. Hobbyists watch their first tank as ammonia increases, then nitrite, then nitrate. Then nitrate starts to decrease. most of these tanks do not yet have fuges, certainly don't have de-nitrators, don't have a skimmer running (there isn't anything to skim yet), and seldom have a DSB. If the LR doesn't harbor anaerobic bacteria; where did the nitrate go?

Bob Fenner's "The Conscience Marine Aquarist' gives a great history of the evolution of LR as a source for de-nitrification including this quote: " The best quality rock, from the aquarists point of view, is highly porous and well-colonized by both nitrfying (aerobic) and de-nitrfying (anaerobic) bacteria." This chapter in Fenner's book, perhaps the most significant book in the hobby, is full of info on LR & anaerobic bacteria.

Any book I have will say the same thing about LR. From Mike Paletta's 'The New Marine Aquarium": "Unlike most active biological filtration devices, live rock can also act as a site where de-nitrification (the conversion of nitrate to harmless nitrogen gas) can takes place in anaerobic, or very low, oxygen conditions."

There have been many advances in removing nitrate; but LR does culture anaerobic bacteria, the reefkeeping side of the hobby never would have been possible without it. The pioneering "Berlin System" uses only LR and a skimmer. Skimmers will not remove nitrate, they just remove organics before they turn to nitrates, taking a load off the various bacteria. These systems could not possibly support a reef unless anaerobic bacteria was living deep in the porous LR. I have seen several Berlin system tanks with zero nitrate....impossible with skimming alone.

There was a great post here a while back that really detailed the anaerobic & anaerobic bacteria working together in the LR to eliminate nitrate I wish I could remember the poster.

That makes sense. I guess in the deep recesses of live rock there could be an anoxic zone as well as the contact points of the sand bed and the rock.... But it's still not necessary to have that fully developed before adding coral. If you never have a large ammonia and nitrite spike you will never have the large nitrate spike to start with...

Water changes are the primary form of nitrate reduction for Berlin systems. By heavy skimming they remove wastes before breakdown and then mop up the rest with water changes. I have NEVER heard of Berlin without regular partial water changes...


I guess then, it should be noted.. If you use LR that has any die off on it, then the ammonia will spike and with it nitrite and nitrate. If you are using dry rock and sand this must not be as big of an issue... I haven't used anything but dry and my own seasoned rock since using this product.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Thatgrimguy

That makes sense. I guess in the deep recesses of live rock there could be an anoxic zone as well as the contact points of the sand bed and the rock.... But it's still not necessary to have that fully developed before adding coral. If you never have a large ammonia and nitrite spike you will never have the large nitrate spike to start with...

Water changes are the primary form of nitrate reduction for Berlin systems. By heavy skimming they remove wastes before breakdown and then mop up the rest with water changes. I have NEVER heard of Berlin without regular partial water changes...

I can't imagine ANY system without WCs. I think there is a lot of stuff is removed (and replenished) during a WC that we haven't even identified yet. Some things are just based on common sense; WCs are one.

[Thatgrimguy]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

I can't imagine ANY system without WCs. I think there is a lot of stuff is removed (and replenished) during a WC that we haven't even identified yet. Some things are just based on common sense; WCs are one.

Well yes, but what extent you have to do them isn't common sense. My berlin system basically demanded that I had to do weekly or at least bi weekly water changes.

My current algae scrubber sps system. (I use algae scrubber, protein skimmer, gfo/gac and dose kalk saturated vinegar) Could go forever without one as far as nitrate is concerned. I still do one every other month or so just to keep ionic imbalances and trace elements in check as well as an opportunity to clean detritus out of my sump but it's nothing like my berlin system was.

[f3honda4me]

Originally Posted by rainmkr07

I am on day 4 of my cycle. I was planning on adding 6 dead shrimp tonight. Does pure ammonia work too? I like One and Only, but don't want to spend $75 on it (150g tank). Can I use pure ammonia?

You need an ammonia source for the bacteria to "eat" and grow, thus "starting" your nitrogen cycle. Pure ammonia works best because it's cheap, and you don't have to wait for ghost feeding or shrimp to decay and start forming ammonia.

I start all new tanks by putting in about 5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons, or whatever it takes to get myself to about 4 ppm ammonia. Then as soon as I see that ammonia start to drop, I check for nitrites and nitrates.

At that point, I'll keep "feeding" the tank ammonia every day to keep it at about 2ppm. I do a large water change if nitrites get really high. You will know when you're done when you can dose to 1 or 2 ppm and within 24 hours, you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Nitrates can take a lot longer but so long as you're below 10ppm on nitrates (do WC to get there) you can add your first fish.

[ReLPSef]

Who buys all their crap in one day anyways? Just throw in the raw shrimp and let it cook baby...Patience, patience, patience.....then more patience.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by ReLPSef

Who buys all their crap in one day anyways? Just throw in the raw shrimp and let it cook baby...Patience, patience, patience.....then more patience.

Day 1---decide to keep SW fish
Day 2----buy set-up and a bacteria "instant-cycle product
Day 3----buy fish
Day 10----list your tank on Craigslist because you thought this was a 'plug & Play hobby.

In all fairness; some of these products may well work. But, IMO, should never be used by newbies just to speed things up. As you said, patience. there is a lot to learn and learning is best started without fish, while the tank is cycling. Having a good knowledge of "the cycle" is vital and you don't learn if its "instant.

[Thatgrimguy]

Yeah, I think the "instant" idea it's what screws people. I would never use this product in lieu of a cycle. Just in conjunction to shorten it. As with most things in this hobby you still need patience and more importantly knowledge.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Thatgrimguy

Yeah, I think the "instant" idea it's what screws people. I would never use this product in lieu of a cycle. Just in conjunction to shorten it. As with most things in this hobby you still need patience and more importantly knowledge.

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If one of these products did work; it would be great for people who need a QT/HT in a hurry. Fighting ammonia in a QT/HT shouldn't be a problem if you're ready; but it often is. The fact that nitrate reduction isn't going to happen is no big deal in a QT/HT anyhow.

[Mariebaby21]

Originally Posted by crankbait

Well i orderd my ro/di my skimmer and my filter media. I also ordered a 50$ bottle of dr tims bactieria. At check out they wanted to charge 10 extra bucks for a heat pack. I past on that deal. Call me cheap but i thought that was a little high plus shipping.

Keep us updated on how it works for you... I'm very interested in the product for my 80g that's coming next week. Are you going to do it fishless or the way they show on that video?

[crankbait]

Hey jules finaly this AM i tested 0 ammonia. 15 days. Now im not going to run out and buy an anenome anytime soon but hey....15 days man. I have been enjoying 2 clownfish since i set up the tank and everything is going well i think. Now a couple words of warning i wouldnt use fish to cylcle a small tank and i wouldnt order dr tims during the dead of winter. As he says in the video if it freezes its dead. I ordered with the temp in the 40 and 50s and i refrigerated it 48 hours before i used it. They charge an extra 15 bucks for a heat pack in shipping. Im going to give my tank another week before clean up crew to see if i can provoke ammonia. Good luck