Electronic Coral Growth

[Floowid]

Everybody, do those of us that put Allmost on ignore years ago a favor. Please stop quoting his inflammatory crap, I don't want to see it.

[Reefnut2010]

Wow, what an interesting thread !! Too bad it got derailed with all the personal attacks. Why don't we stay on topic and share info, so we can all benefit !! and no, I don't have a degree in psychology...lol.

[Allmost]

well my bad guys ... I posted the patent, and exactly how its done, so felt like I was being attacked by others, it was a misunderstanding on my part and I appologize. my mistake, specially about overlapping posts I should have paid attention to the time stamps.


from the patents posted, this procedure is very much like electrolysis of water, which is the procedure to seperate Hydrogen and Oxygen. due to that, I did not feel its appropriate for me to post that. so please dont try this at home. you could evaporate your tank with too much voltage.

if you search the patent on google, you get a full description ... negative port of battery, in seawater, will attract formation of aragonite. which would encourage coral growth. and the difference is noted in those articles and also biorock. [there is a whole website for it]

I did try it in a small tank once [perhaps problem was the size of the tank] but couldnt keep up with the consumption of elements[I think], and failed. but before that, I did get some good growth under a 10,000K mh lighting.




again, my bad, and I hope we can get back to topic of the thread.

Edit : Add on :
Claims of the patent :
Claims

A method for constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped substrate form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a time sufficient for accreting a solid mass of high strength electrodeposited mineral material surrounding the form and covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness, such that the form becomes embedded within the accreted material.

The method of claim 1 wherein the electrical current density is 1-15000 mA/sq.ft.
The method of claim 1 wherein the electric field potential between the electrodes is 1-30,000 volts.
The method of claim 1 wherein the electrolyte is a mineral containing liquid.
The method of claim 1 wherein the preshaped form is at least partially of an electrically conductive material.
A large surface area building component of a hard, strong material made by:

disposing a large surface area form shaped in the configuration desired for the large surface area building component and having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the shaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the shaped cathodic form and the anode for a time sufficient to accrete a mass of electrodeposited mineral material that surrounds the shaped form and covers the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness such that the form becomes embedded therein.

The component of claim 6 wherein the form is at least partially an electrically conductive material.
A large surface area building component of a hard strong material made by:

disposing a large surface area form of nonstructural material having inner and outer surfaces and shaped in the configuration desired for the large building component in a volume conductive and serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the shaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the electrodes for a time sufficient to accrete a solid mass of high strength electrodeposited mineral material covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness, the electrical current being of a density of 1-15,000 mA/sq.ft. with an electric field potential between the electrodes of 1-30,000 volts.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of accreting a hard, strong material on a preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces by electrodeposition of minerals, the accreted material covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of covering a non-structural preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces with a hard, strong material through an electrodeposition process, the inner and outer surfaces of the form being covered to a desired thickness of the material.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of covering a non-structural preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces with a hard, strong material of high structural integrity made by:

disposing the large surface area preshaped form in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a time sufficient to accrete the solid covering of material on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a period of time sufficient to accrete a layer of high strength material on the inner and outer surfaces of the form;

discontinuing the electrical current between the cathode and anode for a period of time; and

re-establishing direct electrical current between the cathode and anode.

The method of claim 12 wherein the steps of interrupting current between the cathode and anode and re-establishing a current between the cathode and anode is repeated a multiplicity of times until a solid covering of accreted material of desired thickness and composition is formed on the inner and outer surfaces of the large surface area preshaped form.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as an electrode;

disposing a second electrode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the electrodes in one direction for a period of time;

switching the polarity of the electrical current between the electrodes to establish a direct electrical current between the electrodes in an opposite direction; and

re-establishing the original polarity of direct electrical current between the electrodes, thereby accreting a solid mass of mineral of a desired thickness on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising steps:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and anode; and

varying the electrical current density of the electrical current to accrete a solid covering of mineral material of a desired thickness and composition on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.


do not put 30,000 volts in your tank.

[Reeferwill561]

Originally Posted by Allmost

well my bad guys ... I posted the patent, and exactly how its done, so felt like I was being attacked by others, it was a misunderstanding on my part and I appologize. my mistake, specially about overlapping posts I should have paid attention to the time stamps.


from the patents posted, this procedure is very much like electrolysis of water, which is the procedure to seperate Hydrogen and Oxygen. due to that, I did not feel its appropriate for me to post that. so please dont try this at home. you could evaporate your tank with too much voltage.

if you search the patent on google, you get a full description ... negative port of battery, in seawater, will attract formation of aragonite. which would encourage coral growth. and the difference is noted in those articles and also biorock. [there is a whole website for it]

I did try it in a small tank once [perhaps problem was the size of the tank] but couldnt keep up with the consumption of elements[I think], and failed. but before that, I did get some good growth under a 10,000K mh lighting.




again, my bad, and I hope we can get back to topic of the thread.

Edit : Add on :
Claims of the patent :
Claims

A method for constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped substrate form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a time sufficient for accreting a solid mass of high strength electrodeposited mineral material surrounding the form and covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness, such that the form becomes embedded within the accreted material.

The method of claim 1 wherein the electrical current density is 1-15000 mA/sq.ft.
The method of claim 1 wherein the electric field potential between the electrodes is 1-30,000 volts.
The method of claim 1 wherein the electrolyte is a mineral containing liquid.
The method of claim 1 wherein the preshaped form is at least partially of an electrically conductive material.
A large surface area building component of a hard, strong material made by:

disposing a large surface area form shaped in the configuration desired for the large surface area building component and having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the shaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the shaped cathodic form and the anode for a time sufficient to accrete a mass of electrodeposited mineral material that surrounds the shaped form and covers the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness such that the form becomes embedded therein.

The component of claim 6 wherein the form is at least partially an electrically conductive material.
A large surface area building component of a hard strong material made by:

disposing a large surface area form of nonstructural material having inner and outer surfaces and shaped in the configuration desired for the large building component in a volume conductive and serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the shaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the electrodes for a time sufficient to accrete a solid mass of high strength electrodeposited mineral material covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness, the electrical current being of a density of 1-15,000 mA/sq.ft. with an electric field potential between the electrodes of 1-30,000 volts.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of accreting a hard, strong material on a preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces by electrodeposition of minerals, the accreted material covering the inner and outer surfaces to a desired thickness.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of covering a non-structural preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces with a hard, strong material through an electrodeposition process, the inner and outer surfaces of the form being covered to a desired thickness of the material.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, which comprises the step of covering a non-structural preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces with a hard, strong material of high structural integrity made by:

disposing the large surface area preshaped form in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form; and

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a time sufficient to accrete the solid covering of material on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and the anode for a period of time sufficient to accrete a layer of high strength material on the inner and outer surfaces of the form;

discontinuing the electrical current between the cathode and anode for a period of time; and

re-establishing direct electrical current between the cathode and anode.

The method of claim 12 wherein the steps of interrupting current between the cathode and anode and re-establishing a current between the cathode and anode is repeated a multiplicity of times until a solid covering of accreted material of desired thickness and composition is formed on the inner and outer surfaces of the large surface area preshaped form.
A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising the steps of:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as an electrode;

disposing a second electrode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the electrodes in one direction for a period of time;

switching the polarity of the electrical current between the electrodes to establish a direct electrical current between the electrodes in an opposite direction; and

re-establishing the original polarity of direct electrical current between the electrodes, thereby accreting a solid mass of mineral of a desired thickness on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.

A method of constructing a large surface area building component, comprising steps:

disposing a large surface area preshaped form having inner and outer surfaces in a volume of electrolyte, said form serving as a cathode;

disposing an anode in the electrolyte in proximity to the preshaped form;

establishing a direct electrical current between the cathode and anode; and

varying the electrical current density of the electrical current to accrete a solid covering of mineral material of a desired thickness and composition on the inner and outer surfaces of the form.


do not put 30,000 volts in your tank.

I am not an electrical engineer, and admit that my weakness is thinking deep, never been a math or science guy. I probably wouldn't try doing that because growing corals faster isn't worth electrocuting myself if I don't know for sure what I'm doing. Especially with electricity. The only time when I'm good at math is when my money is involved

-Will P.

[lighthouze08]

i see a couple problems replicating this in a home aquarium. first is heat, any time you have electricity traveling from anode to cathode, the higher the current the more heat you are going have. 2nd is the material you going to use as the anode and cathode end, is it going to corrode? ion exchange between the 2 usually lead to "corrosion", and 3rd, the byproduct created in the water, is it going to kill everything else in the tank?

[kbennett]

I'm not sure that the issue is how to get calcium to crust onto the electrode. I'd be more interested in figuring out why the coral does better. Does it actually help the coral develop its skeleton? When you tried it, did you use a large exposed rod like their reefs? What if you put a small electrode directly into the skeleton of a specimen to concentrate the calcium in the coral? You'd have to insulate the hole you drilled pretty good.

This wouldn't require much electricity and would be safe - you could probably use a battery if you did it right.

[FishNFun]

Maybe you guys should just whip out your degrees and measure!

[docstomper]

What ever makes My Maimi grow faster and cheaper.... Amirite!?

[ForSaleByAndy]

you know, at the end of the day, while you two are comparing the sizes of your peens, I am out with your wives

Jeez, chillax already.

[T Diddy]

Originally Posted by ForSaleByAndy

you know, at the end of the day, while you two are comparing the sizes of your peens, I am out with your wives

go on....

[lighthouze08]

haha, live and learn

[Jeremy Blaze]

Some serious slinging going on here!

[Jeremy Blaze]

Originally Posted by FishNFun

Maybe you guys should just whip out your degrees and measure!

[thegyft07]

Please no one respone or qoute (Allmost). Just focus of the question. I can't get to the good stuff because I have to read his crap. (Jeremy Blaze)... That was hilarious LOL.

Anyway.... (Kbennett) I was going to set up another tank on the side for corals only to perform this experiment. With the low current of electricity. How much heat are we talking about. Can you break this down mathematically?

Has anyone actually TRIED this?

I know that the question is.... CRAZY, but think about it.

How fast could we grow coral? What could we revive or save. This would make some of the worst looking coral a treasure to those that accomplish it.

[thegyft07]

Just saw his apology. Thank You Allmost.

[Allmost]

Originally Posted by thegyft07

Please no one respone or qoute (Allmost). Just focus of the question. I can't get to the good stuff because I have to read his crap. (Jeremy Blaze)... That was hilarious LOL.

Anyway.... (Kbennett) I was going to set up another tank on the side for corals only to perform this experiment. With the low current of electricity. How much heat are we talking about. Can you break this down mathematically?

Has anyone actually TRIED this?

I know that the question is.... CRAZY, but think about it.

How fast could we grow coral? What could we revive or save. This would make some of the worst looking coral a treasure to those that accomplish it.

lol, HAHA wow guys, lol

honestly, if you read my none sense posts, you will find answer to all your questions[and hints to where to find them as many who have PMed me have found it], and some jokes, which are taken tooooooo serious by some ppl, ... and I really didnt feel like I should be posting procedures to do this at home .... like those videos on TV that say dont try this at home ... lol not very cool. why ? cause info are on the internet ! for those really interested. [just like info on illegal drugs are on the net, yet we wont post them here ] maybe Im just too happy when posting or talking about fish related stuff that I dont see how others could be too serious ... oh well my bad about that as I said above.

anyways, now that my posts are being ignored, look up Electrolysis. that is your highest limit[it will evaporate your water], it will give you all equations for heat it will generate and so on. for leads of anode and cathode, TITANIUM is the answer.

now, questions follow.
1. how does this help or accelerate build up of aragonite ? lets take a simple set up, a battery, salt water tank [mineral salts] and two lead wires and 2 titanium rods. you connect both ports to titanium rods, and place them in water. the positively charged titanium, will attract negativly charged particles, and negative one will attract positivly charged elements, which are calcium, magnesium, carbonates, strontinum, mangenese, and so on .... which would form Aragonite. so in an envirement where corals can grow [meaning good water chemistry and light and flow and so on] this procedure would basically PUSH elements corals need to grow towards them, it will also help re-built our natural reefs, if it takes 100 years for a rock of size X to form, it will take 20 years for it to form under electrical current. [ROCK= aragonite live rock] patent of Bio rock.
[point to remember, if POSITIVELY charged ions are going towards the negatively charges titanium rod, then that means we are pulling out NEGATIVELY charged ions, and storing them by positive titanium, hence not available for the coral or aragonite we are growing ! this is not a problem in the ocean, the oceans have enough elements and reserves, but in our reef tanks, that is not the case, and those should be dosed, I couldnt figure out, and I think that's where I failed.]

2. back to electrolysis analysis ... besides heat, since our tanks are much smaller than the ocean, we could be changing the chemistry of water molecules. [more to read from HAbib on this I dont know if its possible in this case : http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?t=2000307]

keeping those in mind, we can use a 9 V DC power supply [a 9v Battery] copper wire even, connected to titanium, hanging in the tank.
after the titanium build up a layer of percipitate, [like the ones formed on hot pumps or heaters when running high alk and ca++] then you can glue a coral to it, and watch it grow. and try to replenish the elements, perhaps LARGE watr changes, rather than dosing two part would proove to be more effective.


things I have not thought about : I have never tried it nor thought about trying it in a system containing fish . I dont want to risk it.
I have not thought about what would happen to the bacteria, and whether they can witstand 9V difference. these factors are neglectable in ocean, but not in our tanks.


again, sorry, and I hope this made up for my "hints" and not just posting all ...

[thegyft07]

Great information Allmost, Lets go further in this.

Whayt do you think would happen to the bacteria in the tank with 9V pumping?

[Allmost]

that's the part I have absolutly no Idea about. need a marine biologists view on this

its kind of like a tank with stray voltage, and no ground, fish SEEM fine in it, but are they ? biologists seem to have different views.

but most importantly would be the elements, not only major ones we can/do test for but the minor ones that are almost undetectable.

[csmfish]

Originally Posted by Allmost

lets stick back to the topic.

Whats the topic "I know how to make coral grow, just so you know and I am not going to tell you how?"???

What the * is that? If you have information and your going to spout off some wild antidote, be ready to be healpful and not an azz. Not everyone follows down the same path or is even considering how electricity works with corals. Am I to assume people who own electrical operating plants know how to do this too? Why they should, they have degree's on electricity also but I doubt it.

How about you get off your pompus azz, explain the concept for the less educated so low under your higher self or close the thread as its basically worthless as of now.

[csmfish]

Never mind, you posted the info just before I did. Still not changing my comments.

[Allmost]

Originally Posted by csmfish

Whats the topic "I know how to make coral grow, just so you know and I am not going to tell you how?"???

What the * is that? If you have information and your going to spout off some wild antidote, be ready to be healpful and not an azz. Not everyone follows down the same path or is even considering how electricity works with corals. Am I to assume people who own electrical operating plants know how to do this too? Why they should, they have degree's on electricity also but I doubt it.

How about you get off your pompus azz, explain the concept for the less educated so low under your higher self or close the thread as its basically worthless as of now.

thank you for your comment, and my bad.

I have explained the procedure above. you can look up electrolisys on google as well for more info

[steely185]

http://gizmodo.com/5836650/coral-ark...city-and-rebar

[kbennett]

Once you got the titanium covered with calcium inside the coral, you don't need to worry about stray currents. I'm sure the calcium would insulate somewhat. The positive probe would precipitate hydrogen bubbles I think (could be wrong). My design would use insulated wiring between power source and probes to ensure precipitation only happens where I want it.

This is assuming that the coral concentrates the calcium under its flesh such that the calcium will preferentially precipitate (No worrying about negative ions here).

You want all the electrons to pass from calcium ions to titanium probe to battery to titanium probe. The circuit is completed by ion movement through the water. You'd want to avoid current flowing straight from probe to probe through the water, which I assume wastes a lot of energy in the reef biorock design. Any nick in the calcium would short the circuit.

I hope I am explaining this in an understandable way. We use electrolysis on a large scale at my work to form oxygen and hydrogen bubbles on steel surfaces. We also use it to tin steel.

[gypsyboy38]

In your description, carbonate would not go to the same electrode as the metal ions, since it is negatively charged.

[kbennett]

You're right. I got the direction wrong in my description. Carbonate, or another negative ion like hydroxide would release an electron at the exposed metal probe in the water and calcium would pick up electrons and precipitate on the other probe, hopefully adding to the mass of the coral skeleton.