QT Multiple fish?

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by DMBFan

I think I was unclear... The medium that is currently in my QT, that has been there for weeks, spent it's first few weeks in my DT (from new to DT).

Seeding it just makes the start of the process quicker... I add food usually every other day, sometimes daily, to keep the addition of ammonia consistent.

Seeding makes it possible not fast enough. The speed of cycling depends on many factors, ammonia level, circulation/oxygenation, temperature and so forth. This should be done without the fish in advance.

Before you get your fish, put in ammonia in the water you cycle the QT medium that has been "seeded". Let the cycle complete in the QT or in a separate container.

Hint:

1. nearly all the nitrification bacetria is bonded onto the surface of the medium so you can "harvest" the mature filter medium after cycling.

2. You can do a 100% change of the water you cycle the QT medium in. The water quality of the cycling water needs to have nothing to do with the water quality of the QT water.

[Cymonous]

Ok, I am done trying to convince otherwise.

DMBFan, I highly recommend reading the QT Sticky under New to the Hobby if you still needing answers. bnumair is very knowledgable on this subject.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2195588

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Cymonous

So, you are saying that 5 small fish in a saltwater QT of 10 gallons would actually be ok if the filter was good? I find that very hard to believe. A small QT of 10 gallons is not going to have the bacteria needed to process the ammonia made from 5 fish.

"Happy Factor?" A Tang is not too happy in a DT smaller than 125gallons, but can be put in a 10gallon QT by itself for 6-9 weeks. I don't think "Happy Factor" is really factored in a QT.

You should find it easy to believe that there can be no ammonia. One has to define "good ". There can be other non-ammonia problems in such a small tank.

You can have a large, very efficient filter in a 10 gal QT that (the medium)has processed enough ammonia recently.

Not easy to see?

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Cymonous

Ok, I am done trying to convince otherwise.

DMBFan, I highly recommend reading the QT Sticky under New to the Hobby if you still needing answers. bnumair is very knowledgable on this subject.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2195588

Well, the OP's subject is QTing multiple fish.

The means to rid the QT tank of ammonia has to be of primary concern.

What sticky addresses this issue well?

Frequent water change during QT is even more problematic when the biolaod in QT is heavy.

Bioload in QT should not be the issue, in fact.

[ken55]

In regard to the bio-load issue, would it not be practical to take some rubble sized pieces of live rock from the established DT and place into the QT? Not huge chunks that may start a die-off cycle if the bacteria don't have enough to work with but just a scattering of rubble to make sure the bio-load of multiple fish can be handled. Just a little insurance in case the floss isn't ready or can't quite handle the full load at the start.

Granted, if the Op has to medicate the rubble is probably worthless afterward but if not, then they can go right back into the DT.

Just a thought.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by ken55

In regard to the bio-load issue, would it not be practical to take some rubble sized pieces of live rock from the established DT and place into the QT? Not huge chunks that may start a die-off cycle if the bacteria don't have enough to work with but just a scattering of rubble to make sure the bio-load of multiple fish can be handled. Just a little insurance in case the floss isn't ready or can't quite handle the full load at the start.

Granted, if the Op has to medicate the rubble is probably worthless afterward but if not, then they can go right back into the DT.

Just a thought.

A matter of quantitative thinking. You will generally be just "seeding" the QT medium doing it just this way. This should be done but this alone will only be seeding the QT medium, you need to grow it separately.

This really is a very simple concept.

At long equilibrium, the nitrification bacteria population in DT will be in balance with the bioload of the DT, not limitless. Just by taking some mature medium in DT will remove some needed in the DT.

It depends on the relative split and the bioload needed in QT.

This method of seeding the medium in QT and then using at once might work in Qt of one small fish, as all you have to do then is to limit feeding in the DT for a little while.

But if the bioload in QT is high, this method does not work at all. The nitrification bacteria in the medium in QT has to have the time to grow before using in QT, otherwise it is cycling with fish in QT--calamity

[wooden_reefer]

One can say one should QT only one fish at a time.

But what if that one fish is 8 inches long? How do you QT one 8 inch fish?

You may not be able to escape the bioload issue in QT.

[ken55]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

But if the bioload in QT is high, this method does not work at all. The nitrification bacteria in the medium in QT has to have the time to grow before using in QT, otherwise it is cycling with fish in QT--calamity

So, umm, how would one go about achieving immediate balance in a QT that is only really used when quarantining fish? Once the fish have proven to be healthy then they go into the DT and the QT is again fallow. When the next fish come in the QT will need to rebalance itself (again). Also, I'm not convinced that removing a few pieces of rubble will disrupt a 120g DT to the point of danger, as it also will rebalance itself.

I guess the part of the simple concept that I'm missing is how to achieve long equilibrium in a tank that sometimes has fish and sometimes doesn't.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by ken55

So, umm, how would one go about achieving immediate balance in a QT that is only really used when quarantining fish? .

Excretion from fish is only one source of ammonia.

There is decay of protein.

So the simple answer is to cycle the medium for QT very well in advance generally using decay of animal protein.

Do you still think of cycling in terms of livestock or decay on LR?

Also, nitrification bacteria have an idle state when they do not die at once due to lack of ammonia, so ammonia can be fed in pulses.

[DMBFan]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Seeding makes it possible not fast enough. The speed of cycling depends on many factors, ammonia level, circulation/oxygenation, temperature and so forth. This should be done without the fish in advance.

Before you get your fish, put in ammonia in the water you cycle the QT medium that has been "seeded". Let the cycle complete in the QT or in a separate container.

Hint:

1. nearly all the nitrification bacetria is bonded onto the surface of the medium so you can "harvest" the mature filter medium after cycling.

2. You can do a 100% change of the water you cycle the QT medium in. The water quality of the cycling water needs to have nothing to do with the water quality of the QT water.

I may not have been clear about the timeline... I am ghost feeding my QT (currently), and have been for a few weeks.... There are no fish in my QT tank.... I am not planning on putting them in there until the cycle is complete. I thought I was clear about this, but I may have been vague about what has happened, and what hasn't.

I had already read through the "QT" sticky, which is how I gained my equipment list and started the cycle in there.

This thread may have gone off track with others debating what is or isn't an 8" fish or something... I was just wondering if people had good/bad/otherwise experiences with multiple fish going into the same QT at the same time.

The lesson(s): Make sure your QT tank can support the bio load of the fish, and their poo. Not just in tank size, but in filter media size and maturity.
Water changes aren't as important, except to remove nitrate levels if they manage to get too high in the 7-9 week process. But I still plan on taking 5 gallons or so a week from my DT and using that as a water change in the QT, so after a few weeks the levels are really close. It will help the acclimation process.
Do not add fish until the cycle is done (already planned).

A side note, I would never add live rock from DT to QT unless it was going to stay there. I don't even use the same hoses/nets/etc between the two. Not worth the risk.

Thanks for the input

[wooden_reefer]

"This thread may have gone off track with others debating what is or isn't an 8" fish or something... I was just wondering if people had good/bad/otherwise experiences with multiple fish going into the same QT at the same time. "

Qting multiple fish has worked for me in general.

Ammonia is one consideration.

Basically a closed system with wild caught fish from all over the world is a fundamental challenge. pathogens can multiply in such confinement.

Nutrition is of course fundamental but is often grossly insufficient.

I believe there has to be control over concentration of waterborne pathogens in such closed envirnoment. There has not been tank-wide bacterial infection and incidents of bacterial infection on individual fish has declined by about 80% since I started to use UV properly about 25 years ago.

Overall I will always QT as many fish as I can get for a certain setup as the benefits far outweighs the concern; but begineers who are not familar with disease control should QT one at a time to learn how to deal with different diseases.