I want everyones opinion!?!? - Page 2

SVTour · 06/12/2013, 08:01 AM

Nice article...I enjoyed the read.

Ironically, I was always under the impression that tank size was determined by how fast the fish would swim...opposed to it's actual size. To state, if my Blonde Naso and Sailfin truly hit the max size (1'6" and 1'3" respectively)...I'm going to have some serious issues down the road.

PatW · 06/12/2013, 08:17 AM

Captive animals can often be "happier" than "wild" animals. Captive animals frequntly live longer and are healthier than their wild counterparts. If the captive animal is given its needs, it can be quite healthy and aparently content. Remember "freedom" is a human construct. Being wild is no boon if you happen to be sick, starving and living in a degraded habitat.

Often animals have needs for mental stimulation that out weigh their physical needs. Parrots mentioned above have pretty modest physical needs. It is harder to meet their mental needs. They are intensely social and extremely intelligent. A parrot owner needs to be prepared to give a captive parrot mental stimulation and social interaction on a daily basis.

dc · 06/12/2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koral_Keeper

First of all, I thought that is was an excellent article from someone who strongly seems to have some advanced knowledge.

As to the posts about offering and taking advice, I would say that it is all about how the advice is offered. Althought I'm new here, I've lurked for a long, long time. The reason I only lurked and did not join is because some of the advice given seemed to be harsh and condescending and some of the moderators seemed quick to ban people. We are all here to learn, and if any one of us was a true expert who loves taking care of boxes of water, they would pursue a career in marine biology.

Debi, I think your statement, "Let's tread carefully in this thread," is excellent advice for ALL threads on this forum that offer differing opinions.

Unfortunately some tones don't transfer to print and people take offense far too easily. Walking away is a good thing, there's no need to 'prove' you're right.

Sometimes it's passion for the hobby, and other times people just want to pick a fight. No one wins. Unfortunately this kind of thread is a target.

gofor100 · 06/12/2013, 09:31 AM

I feel the main distinction between the "tang police" and someone simply trying to offer their opinion is not necessarily what is said, but how it is said.

Tang police= "Are you an idiot?!?!? You can't put a Yellow Tang in a 30 gallon tank!!!!"

Concerned Reefkeeper= "A 30 gallon tank is not a large enough tank to keep a Yellow Tang for an extended period of time because...[insert opinion here]"

Forums should be more for information and less about putting people down...

I personally feel that as responsible reefkeepers, we should try to provide an environment that is sufficient to meet the needs of the fish we keep. So truly open-water swimmers should be kept off of your fish list unless you can provide a really large tank. But as the article points out, many of the reef fish that are consider "active swimmers" are only active swimmers out of necessity to find food. Not saying that you still don't need to provide them with plenty of swimming room, but just saying that there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule of "the tank needs to be x feet long for a particular fish" if all other needs are being met.

-Chad

mikem101 · 06/12/2013, 09:53 AM

im glad we are getting everyones thoughts without a argument breaking out! I love hearing every ones thoughts about this topic, i find it interesting!

Mattewell · 06/12/2013, 09:58 AM

Would you consider these people Tang Police?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2297547

gone fishin · 06/12/2013, 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=Mattewell;21604894]Would you consider these people Tang Police?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2297547[/QUOTE

If you are refering to the sea shepard, then no. I consider the self deluded with an overinflated sense of self worth.

Zimmer · 06/12/2013, 10:17 AM

Not Tang Police.... Just idiots. I can't even believe that I get sooo frustrated reading stuff like that! Ugh.

Khemul · 06/12/2013, 10:40 AM

Eco-police. It's like the Tang Police, but less sanity. And more hypocrisy.

The TP at least generally practice what they preach. And probably actually believe what they preach too...

TiberianSun · 06/12/2013, 11:04 AM

I think any and all animals in captivity are somewhat "unhappy" unless they were born into it. If they were born into it then they won't know any other life.

From my own perspective on the Tang Police item I can tell you that when we opted to put Tangs in our tank we did look at the "recommended" tank size charts and went larger. We also make the decision knowing at some point the tangs would out grow our current tank and we would either have to build a larger tank or look to re-home them. I did rescue a few tangs and posted asking for recommendations and the TP folks came after me because I "didn't have enough space" even though in the specific post I stated the housing them in a 92G was only temporary until we could convert our FW tank to SW. This is when some individuals show how incompetent they are by not reading and assuming.

I've dealt with TP types in other hobbies and they all fall into 2 categories. One is the extremists where they will never agree with any other point of view and the other type are those that are passionate but also understand reality. The extremists are fun to mess with while those based in reality are those that can effect change in a positive way and are also great to talk with.

Our tangs are getting to a point where I believe they are "cramped" in our 150G tank so we are in the process of building a 450G tank. The tank should be up in about 2-3 months once the contractors finish building a few walls. This way they will have plenty of room to roam and grow.

If and when they outgrow the 450G then we will most likely opt to re-home them but I do have the space for a larger tank.....I've got an idea.......perhaps if the wife agrees we will just build bigger!!!

mikem101 · 06/12/2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiberianSun

I think any and all animals in captivity are somewhat "unhappy" unless they were born into it. If they were born into it then they won't know any other life.

From my own perspective on the Tang Police item I can tell you that when we opted to put Tangs in our tank we did look at the "recommended" tank size charts and went larger. We also make the decision knowing at some point the tangs would out grow our current tank and we would either have to build a larger tank or look to re-home them. I did rescue a few tangs and posted asking for recommendations and the TP folks came after me because I "didn't have enough space" even though in the specific post I stated the housing them in a 92G was only temporary until we could convert our FW tank to SW. This is when some individuals show how incompetent they are by not reading and assuming.

I've dealt with TP types in other hobbies and they all fall into 2 categories. One is the extremists where they will never agree with any other point of view and the other type are those that are passionate but also understand reality. The extremists are fun to mess with while those based in reality are those that can effect change in a positive way and are also great to talk with.

Our tangs are getting to a point where I believe they are "cramped" in our 150G tank so we are in the process of building a 450G tank. The tank should be up in about 2-3 months once the contractors finish building a few walls. This way they will have plenty of room to roam and grow.

If and when they outgrow the 450G then we will most likely opt to re-home them but I do have the space for a larger tank.....I've got an idea.......perhaps if the wife agrees we will just build bigger!!!

i cant get mine to agree to a 300G so you already have one up on me.

reefer91 · 06/12/2013, 02:11 PM

In my opinion and experience, the term tang police didn't stem from people advocating for larger tanks to house these animals. It is a condescending (and warranted IMO) remark about those that choose to bring up the topic in unrelated threads, unrequested and often rudely. It usually comes from a person asking a questions about a coral, including a tank picture with a yellow tank in the background. Then comes the out of line comment. This is not only incredibly annoying and rude, but derails the thread. The only time I see this being appropriate is in the "New to the Hobby" subforum... maybe.

I have a small tang in a small tank. I also have two 400ish gallon systems. I don't think I have ever disclosed that here. If I posted a picture despite my join date and without knowing anyone, it would be a good bet that someone would say something. Making remarks like these people do is akin to people judging a seemingly healthy individual parking in a handicap space at a grocery store. You don't know anything about that person beyond the thread and it's not the thread starters job to state some tang disclaimer in every thread they make.

Many on this forum could benefit from the idea of only speaking of what they actually know and reading questions other have posted twice. This is why you rarely see "old-timers" on here.

This is very different than simply thinking a certain fish needs X tank... a whole 'nother thing.

Yose · 06/12/2013, 02:31 PM

I have always refrained from having conversations about Tangs on RC because I was attacked when I first started this hobby for putting a YT in 75G.

In the end, those of us who really care about these animals will do what is necessary for their health. How the responsible reefer handles the hobby far outweighs the care these animals receive as they get passed from dealer to LFS. This brings me to a personal example.

We have a very large supplier in our area and the way they care for their animals is horrifying: Walking around the Fish Room with fish flopping around in nets while being shuffled from tank to tank, almost no acclimation time, quarters too small for the animal, I see this all the time. Where I ran into the problem was one day I saw a Sohal in a 12" X 12" cube absolutely freaking out! I made a 101 kind of mistake and bought the fish out of guilt.

This story never came to RC because I knew someone would castrate me for buying a Sohal with only a 6 foot tank even though the LFS was downright cruel to it. That being stated, I have had my Sohal for almost 7 years and he is one of the happiest fish I've ever seen. He is constantly swimming as he has +7000GPH of flow to swim against and lots of rocks to swim around and through. The fish's fins are fully extended, the colors are spectacular, and it even eats dinner by nibbling on the pipette!

So ok my Sohal is in a 125 but I've done my due diligence in giving the animal natural surroundings as well as sufficient flow to always have exercise. A 125 might not be the "RIGHT" size tank, but it is far better than the life it had in the Fish Room. I am sure that had I not saved this fish all those years ago it would not have made it one day in their tanks. In essence the people who don't agree with my rationale are welcome to see that my Sohal thrives, not just survives. He is my pet and I love him. By the way my Sohal shares the tank with 1 Coral Beauty (9 years old), 1 banded shrimp, a cleanup crew, and LPS corals. Guilty as charged. Lock me up, but my Sohal rocks whether you agree with it or not!

pete33 · 06/12/2013, 02:56 PM

Not afraid of the "TP" No tangs in my 29, only a queen angel. Oh crap, is there a "AP"? :-)

mikem101 · 06/13/2013, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete33

Not afraid of the "TP" No tangs in my 29, only a queen angel. Oh crap, is there a "AP"? :-)

I always wondered that hahaha you see people get real upset about tangs but a queen angel in a 40 naaaa your good lol?

dc · 06/13/2013, 06:56 AM

Back on topic and drop the phrase please.

mikem101 · 06/13/2013, 07:20 AM

I have been a member of other forums for a long time before I decided to join RC, because can be rather argumentative at times. What I found most unappealing about it since I have joined is overbearing and domineering mods. This is a forum for people to discuss any topic in any thread? Not to be forced to stay on topic, and that being said the article was titled tang police so if you want us to stay on topic why is it we can’t use the word the article is based on.

06/12/2013, 08:01 AM	#26
SVTour Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,115	Nice article...I enjoyed the read. Ironically, I was always under the impression that tank size was determined by how fast the fish would swim...opposed to it's actual size. To state, if my Blonde Naso and Sailfin truly hit the max size (1'6" and 1'3" respectively)...I'm going to have some serious issues down the road. __________________ If you ever drop your keys into molten lava, let 'em go...cause man, they're gone. Current Tank Info: 220gal RR in wall w/ 90gal sump/fuge, 39 gallon QT, 2 X 45 gallon salt mixing station, Full LED lighting, RKE w/APC Tunze and MLC

06/12/2013, 09:31 AM	#29
gofor100 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,225	I feel the main distinction between the "tang police" and someone simply trying to offer their opinion is not necessarily what is said, but how it is said. Tang police= "Are you an idiot?!?!? You can't put a Yellow Tang in a 30 gallon tank!!!!" Concerned Reefkeeper= "A 30 gallon tank is not a large enough tank to keep a Yellow Tang for an extended period of time because...[insert opinion here]" Forums should be more for information and less about putting people down... I personally feel that as responsible reefkeepers, we should try to provide an environment that is sufficient to meet the needs of the fish we keep. So truly open-water swimmers should be kept off of your fish list unless you can provide a really large tank. But as the article points out, many of the reef fish that are consider "active swimmers" are only active swimmers out of necessity to find food. Not saying that you still don't need to provide them with plenty of swimming room, but just saying that there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule of "the tank needs to be x feet long for a particular fish" if all other needs are being met. -Chad __________________ "FISH ARE FRIENDS, NOT FOOD" Current Tank Info: Tank Build in Progress

06/12/2013, 10:15 AM	#32
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	[QUOTE=Mattewell;21604894]Would you consider these people Tang Police? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2297547[/QUOTE If you are refering to the sea shepard, then no. I consider the self deluded with an overinflated sense of self worth. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

06/12/2013, 10:17 AM	#33
Zimmer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Chehalis, WA Posts: 263	Not Tang Police.... Just idiots. I can't even believe that I get sooo frustrated reading stuff like that! Ugh. __________________ Newb for life. Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef w/ two 16" Reefbreeders LED fixtures - wp25 & 1500gph ATB return pump - ATB 840 v2.0 skimmer

06/12/2013, 02:56 PM	#39
pete33 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Granada Hills, CA Posts: 259	Not afraid of the "TP" No tangs in my 29, only a queen angel. Oh crap, is there a "AP"? :-) __________________ 29 gal. Sea Clear / eshopps sump-overflow-skimmer / Eheim 1250 / Arctica chiller / BRS GFO Reactor / Belize Sun 250 W.

06/12/2013, 08:17 AM	#27
PatW Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 275	Captive animals can often be "happier" than "wild" animals. Captive animals frequntly live longer and are healthier than their wild counterparts. If the captive animal is given its needs, it can be quite healthy and aparently content. Remember "freedom" is a human construct. Being wild is no boon if you happen to be sick, starving and living in a degraded habitat. Often animals have needs for mental stimulation that out weigh their physical needs. Parrots mentioned above have pretty modest physical needs. It is harder to meet their mental needs. They are intensely social and extremely intelligent. A parrot owner needs to be prepared to give a captive parrot mental stimulation and social interaction on a daily basis.

06/12/2013, 09:53 AM	#30
mikem101 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 819	im glad we are getting everyones thoughts without a argument breaking out! I love hearing every ones thoughts about this topic, i find it interesting!

06/12/2013, 09:58 AM	#31
Mattewell Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Rochester,Mn Posts: 308	Would you consider these people Tang Police? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2297547

06/12/2013, 10:40 AM	#34
Khemul Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 988	Eco-police. It's like the Tang Police, but less sanity. And more hypocrisy. The TP at least generally practice what they preach. And probably actually believe what they preach too...

06/12/2013, 11:04 AM	#35
TiberianSun Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 26	I think any and all animals in captivity are somewhat "unhappy" unless they were born into it. If they were born into it then they won't know any other life. From my own perspective on the Tang Police item I can tell you that when we opted to put Tangs in our tank we did look at the "recommended" tank size charts and went larger. We also make the decision knowing at some point the tangs would out grow our current tank and we would either have to build a larger tank or look to re-home them. I did rescue a few tangs and posted asking for recommendations and the TP folks came after me because I "didn't have enough space" even though in the specific post I stated the housing them in a 92G was only temporary until we could convert our FW tank to SW. This is when some individuals show how incompetent they are by not reading and assuming. I've dealt with TP types in other hobbies and they all fall into 2 categories. One is the extremists where they will never agree with any other point of view and the other type are those that are passionate but also understand reality. The extremists are fun to mess with while those based in reality are those that can effect change in a positive way and are also great to talk with. Our tangs are getting to a point where I believe they are "cramped" in our 150G tank so we are in the process of building a 450G tank. The tank should be up in about 2-3 months once the contractors finish building a few walls. This way they will have plenty of room to roam and grow. If and when they outgrow the 450G then we will most likely opt to re-home them but I do have the space for a larger tank.....I've got an idea.......perhaps if the wife agrees we will just build bigger!!!

06/12/2013, 02:11 PM	#37
reefer91 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 277	In my opinion and experience, the term tang police didn't stem from people advocating for larger tanks to house these animals. It is a condescending (and warranted IMO) remark about those that choose to bring up the topic in unrelated threads, unrequested and often rudely. It usually comes from a person asking a questions about a coral, including a tank picture with a yellow tank in the background. Then comes the out of line comment. This is not only incredibly annoying and rude, but derails the thread. The only time I see this being appropriate is in the "New to the Hobby" subforum... maybe. I have a small tang in a small tank. I also have two 400ish gallon systems. I don't think I have ever disclosed that here. If I posted a picture despite my join date and without knowing anyone, it would be a good bet that someone would say something. Making remarks like these people do is akin to people judging a seemingly healthy individual parking in a handicap space at a grocery store. You don't know anything about that person beyond the thread and it's not the thread starters job to state some tang disclaimer in every thread they make. Many on this forum could benefit from the idea of only speaking of what they actually know and reading questions other have posted twice. This is why you rarely see "old-timers" on here. This is very different than simply thinking a certain fish needs X tank... a whole 'nother thing.

06/13/2013, 06:56 AM	#41
dc Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Wyoming Posts: 44,684	Back on topic and drop the phrase please. __________________ Debi ~60 Cube~ Why? Because I said so of course. -Sent via Tapatalk Smoke Signals-

06/13/2013, 07:20 AM	#42
mikem101 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 819	I have been a member of other forums for a long time before I decided to join RC, because can be rather argumentative at times. What I found most unappealing about it since I have joined is overbearing and domineering mods. This is a forum for people to discuss any topic in any thread? Not to be forced to stay on topic, and that being said the article was titled tang police so if you want us to stay on topic why is it we can’t use the word the article is based on.