Fish Flashing

[MrTuskfish]

If your fish have a parasite, and it sounds like they do; its way too late for any possible immune system help. The fish need to be treated in a QT. Melefix is a herbal snake oil that does nothing. Garlic, ginger, et al, do nothing.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by asmodyus

Day 4 of flashing looks like the mimic tang starting to do it two so that Blenny (still nipping at its tail) Convict Tang and yellow damsel.
The Hawk is now swimming around again instead of hiding and the clowns, coral beauty, and azure are not showing any flashing and no visible symptoms yet somebody said I should use some melafix to boost there immune systems but will it harm bubble tip anemone or Corals:
Corals:
Aussie Torch
Hammer
Frog
Gorgan
Finger Leather
Star Polyps
Cloves
Zoa
Trumpet Coral
Birds nest
Monti

Without knowing the specific pathogen, I'm not sure tossing all sorts of random chemicals in to the mix is a good idea. You wouldn't put a leg cast on someone with the flu, and you wouldn't give chemotherapy to someone with a headache. The term 'boost the immune system' in general, is a completely biologically meaningless term unless you're talking about diseases like Lupus, multiple sclerosis, chronic inflammation, and seasonal allergies, which are, in fact, what happens when an immune system is 'boosted'.

Melafix is sold as an anti-bacterial product that also kills parasitic flatworms on corals. It does not 'boost' anything. It kills bacteria and coral associated flatworms. It doesn't sound like your fish are suffering from a bacterial infection, or any of the fish ailments that API lists that product as being effective against, so I don't know why you'd want to add it.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

If your fish have a parasite, and it sounds like they do; its way too late for any possible immune system help. The fish need to be treated in a QT. Melefix is a herbal snake oil that does nothing. Garlic, ginger, et al, do nothing.

The issue is I have no clue what to treat them for? As I cannot see any visible spots or anything on the fish beside then rubbing against the rock and the Blenny nipping at its tail. I should have a QT hopefully setup next week or so.

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Without knowing the specific pathogen, I'm not sure tossing all sorts of random chemicals in to the mix is a good idea. You wouldn't put a leg cast on someone with the flu, and you wouldn't give chemotherapy to someone with a headache. The term 'boost the immune system' in general, is a completely biologically meaningless term unless you're talking about diseases like Lupus, multiple sclerosis, chronic inflammation, and seasonal allergies, which are, in fact, what happens when an immune system is 'boosted'.

Melafix is sold as an anti-bacterial product that also kills parasitic flatworms on corals. It does not 'boost' anything. It kills bacteria and coral associated flatworms. It doesn't sound like your fish are suffering from a bacterial infection, or any of the fish ailments that API lists that product as being effective against, so I don't know why you'd want to add it.

That makes since well I guess I keeping playing the waiting game until I have some visible outbreak.

[hogfanreefer]

Can you catch one of the fish and do a fresh water bath? That would confirm flukes if that's the problem?

[Spyderturbo007]

Here is the way that I would look at it. You don't have a QT so the only medication you can use is PraziPro which is reef safe. There is a decent indication that your fish have flukes based on them flashing with no other visable signs of infection. Multiple users have reported no issues at all when dosing PraziPro in an active reef setup.

I'm a little confused as to why you aren't treating with PraziPro? You just keep posting the same thing over and over again. Right now it appears as though you have two options. Do nothing or medicate the tank with PraziPro.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Spyderturbo007

Here is the way that I would look at it. You don't have a QT so the only medication you can use is PraziPro which is reef safe. There is a decent indication that your fish have flukes based on them flashing with no other visable signs of infection. Multiple users have reported no issues at all when dosing PraziPro in an active reef setup.

I'm a little confused as to why you aren't treating with PraziPro? You just keep posting the same thing over and over again. Right now it appears as though you have two options. Do nothing or medicate the tank with PraziPro.

Okay well I will get some tomorrow I just did not know if the medicine was stressful to the fish and coral if I don't have fluke.

[asmodyus]

Its ICK Mimic Tang as spots so now I need to act quick fish does not look good.

Question can I take the coral and Live rock out and Treat the main tank or tank the live rock out and move the fish to the 29 gallon?

[Hockeynut120]

I feel bad you are having this problem it has happened to everyone in this hobby at one time or another. With that said I really don't believe most people ever jump through all of the actual loops you would have to to ensure a ich free tank.
I have ich in my system I know this to be positively true I had it show when I added a new fish which I had in quarenteen for 6 weeks. Might have came in on an earlier fish I don't know. What I would do is keep it calm and feed heavily with good food and hope that the fish are all healthy enough to fight it off on there own.
Like said earlier sometimes the cure could stress and harm the fish more then leaving it alone and letting it run its course.
Going back it an ich free system unless you are putting everything in quarenteen from the start coral, live rock, cheato, sand and the fish, the list goes on and on you will never be truly ich free. Good luck whatever you choose

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Hockeynut120

I feel bad you are having this problem it has happened to everyone in this hobby at one time or another. With that said I really don't believe most people ever jump through all of the actual loops you would have to to ensure a ich free tank.
I have ich in my system I know this to be positively true I had it show when I added a new fish which I had in quarenteen for 6 weeks. Might have came in on an earlier fish I don't know. What I would do is keep it calm and feed heavily with good food and hope that the fish are all healthy enough to fight it off on there own.
Like said earlier sometimes the cure could stress and harm the fish more then leaving it alone and letting it run its course.
Going back it an ich free system unless you are putting everything in quarenteen from the start coral, live rock, cheato, sand and the fish, the list goes on and on you will never be truly ich free. Good luck whatever you choose

Thanks the Mimic did not make it and it was such a beautiful fish. Man that was fast I noticed the spots last night and this morning it was dead. Well looks like the rest of the fish are still doing okay. So I now I know they need to be quarantine and treated but your saying that the treatment can be just as bad. I'm thinking of going the copper med route as the salinity version seems more difficult and I read if you do sustain the right salinity they can come back were as the copper treatment is better and more effective at keeping gone.

The thing is I lost one fish so know I need to setup up a QT fast so I borrowed some funds to get it going is there a fast way to do it? Do I Just take 25 gallons out of the DT tank put in the QT tank get a Heater, filter, and light and I can transfer fish and start the meds?

Or do I wait until they fight it off so they are stronger get some of that new Med Food I keep reading about or Reef Safe Meds that will temp make it go away and than later put in them in the QT?

[Hockeynut120]

Don't believe in reef safe cures for ich I have never heard of any that are successful. The only way to truly get ich out of your system is to remove all fish and run the tank empty just rock and coral for a couple months while you treat your fish with either copper or hypo in a QT tank. You can use new water to make up your QT just make sure it's the same temp and salinity. With a QT tank you run into its own issues, how big? the bigger the better, keeping ammonia down without stressing out the fish even more.
You need to test water a lot and make corrections with new water and test copper each time.
IMO if the other fish seem fine I think I would just wait a little longer because the alternative is long and hard, the only positive is that when you are done you will truly have a ich free system. Good luck

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Hockeynut120

Don't believe in reef safe cures for ich I have never heard of any that are successful. The only way to truly get ich out of your system is to remove all fish and run the tank empty just rock and coral for a couple months while you treat your fish with either copper or hypo in a QT tank. You can use new water to make up your QT just make sure it's the same temp and salinity. With a QT tank you run into its own issues, how big? the bigger the better, keeping ammonia down without stressing out the fish even more.
You need to test water a lot and make corrections with new water and test copper each time.
IMO if the other fish seem fine I think I would just wait a little longer because the alternative is long and hard, the only positive is that when you are done you will truly have a ich free system. Good luck

Thanks I will monitor the fish but I'm afraid if I do not do something soon I will lose another one because the mimic was showing no symptoms and than out of nor were it was dead in a day. Also the mimic was the newest member and only 4 days old straight from the whole seller so he could of had a weakened system already. So I will be going to pick up the water today and get my 29Gallon QT tank running should I try to cycle it first maybe throw dead shrimp in there or maybe or something throw some small pieces of live rock from the DT Tank?

[asmodyus]

Well I lost my Coral Beauty Today but on the bright side the rest of the fish including the convict tang are still there fighting I did a couple of reef treatments that I know will not kill but maybe it will help fight it.

I did find a 110 that I will be most likely getting. Question I have what is the best way to transfer and quarantine I will have the stocked 65 with coral, Fish, CC, Live rock and sand.I was thinking about taking the LR, Corals, Invertebrates, and everything but the fish and sand and transfer to the new tank. Leave the 65 with the sand and fish treat that system and let them chill in there for 8 weeks. than move them over. Do I need to do anything to the live rock a treatment or something to get rid of any ick.

[asmodyus]

Lost the convict tang really thought he would make bit he keeped getting skinny each day even though he was eating. So down 3 fish. But on the good note the 2 clowns, Midas Blenny, spotted Hawk, and the 2 damsels seem to be doing good. The smaller of the clowns showing ick but he fat and eating well and does not seem stressed. Couple more weeks and I will have my new tank and I can start QT the fish.

[shredmaster]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

No such thing exists. At least none that are backed by anything more than anecdotal forum posts, and many (/most to all) of those can be attributed to correlation, not causation. The best I think you can hope for in terms of in-tank 'treatment' is to keep your fish as well fed and stress free as possible and they will hopefully develop enough innate resistance to keep population of the parasite relatively low.



Generally speaking, if you don't quarantine your fish using a prophylactic treatment protocol that is known to be effective against ich (there are several, none are even remotely 'reef safe'), I would argue that it's physically impossible for ich to not be present in your tank. It very likely came in on one of your first few fish. This is inevitable, not surprising. I would further argue that continuing to add fish to your tank in this manner means that it is only a matter of time before something worse than ich is introduced, so hopefully after the holidays you can sort out a way to prevent that from happening.

That being said, ich is not necessarily the end of the world. Fish can develop a level of immunity to it that keeps it relatively at bay in a small closed system so long as the fish are healthy. You may not even have any losses. Even if you had a QT system set up and running in the next room right now, I'm not sure I would counsel you to do anything other than wait and see. Ich, once introduced, is next to impossible to eradicate without a lengthy fallow period while simultaneously treating all of your fish in a separate QT system. Doing that to all of your fish at once is both logistically challenging, and extremely risky for your animals. It may very well be that the cure is worse than the disease.

If none of your fish have died, they're all still eating, and the only evidence you see is flashing, a knee jerk removal of all animals to a cramped QT with questionable water quality then exposing them to harsh chemical treatments like copper or hypo that in themselves could kill the fish, IMO, is likely going to do more harm than the ich will. If you start losing fish, obviously that equation changes.

It might be flukes as others have said, and I would investigate using prazipro in a reef because if it is indeed reef safe then there's not really a reason not to dose it (I use it on every new fish), but chances are overwhelmingly in favour of this being ich.

Anyway it's all a moot point seeing as you have no QT and have no intention of getting one soon, so really the only option you have is trying to keep these fish as healthy as possible. Some people say garlic helps, some people say dancing naked under a full moon helps. The treatments that are known to actually directly kill this parasite, however, will completely nuke your tank in the process, so if I were you I'd stop adding new fish, and just focus on keeping the diet of the existing fish as high quality as possible.

Also, FWIW, I've been in your shoes. It sucked, and was a painful and expensive lesson, especially the knee jerk treatment that went horribly wrong and killed every single fish. I now look at a properly set up quarantine system as being as vital to the planning and set up of a tank as the hoses connecting the return pump to the display. I wouldn't design a tank in the future without taking the cost of the QT set-up in to account.

Keep it at bay? ARE YOU KIDDING?! ICH keeps multiplying rapidly until all your fish are dead! CHECK OUT THIS VID I MADE ON IT! https://youtu.be/XUA9xZjCTwQ

[Sk8r]

You are better off to bite the bullet, take EVERYBODY to a treatment tank, maybe 2 of them, and use tank transfer method. Read up on it in the Fish Disease section: see Forums menu. Your corals and inverts will not harbor the pest, so they're safe to live on their own for 12 weeks, with a little feeding. Meanwhile treat the fish. All of them. Angels do not tolerate copper as well as other fish, and copper is also an appetite depressant. Set up two treatment tanks, uncycled, move fish into the first one, and start the tank transfer, every day drying out one tank and preparing it for the next day. You're going to need a barrel of salt and a lot of pillow floss (see a sewing store for same: cheaper than fish floss.) Ich has to reproduce within 72 days, and if it can't find a fish host, it dies. Hence the 12 week wait to put any fish into your DT. Corals will be fine. Just no fish.

[cnreef]

Way to bump a thread that was over a year old, lol. Either way, guess it's nice for some people to get another look at