Moving Iwaki to other side of wall

[jharding08]

I guess my last question would be when to downsize from 1.5 to 1" to the pump inlet, should I do a 1" union right on the pump inlet then the 1" to 1.5" adapter to the 1.5" pvc?

[dcmartinpc]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I guess my last question would be when to downsize from 1.5 to 1" to the pump inlet, should I do a 1" union right on the pump inlet then the 1" to 1.5" adapter to the 1.5" pvc?

Yes. Make the transition right at the pump. I usually just us a 1.5" union on the end of the pipe and adapt it down to the pump size.

Don

[jharding08]

On the outlet plumbing, does it matter if the return to the tank comes before the manifold for the reactors?

[dcmartinpc]

I would say no, just make sure to put a valve on the return line going to the tank if you need to throttle it back to get enough flow to you manifold. True union ball valves wherever prudent

I really have a problem when it come to TUBV! I think I have 18 in my system!!!

Don

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by dcmartinpc

I would say no, just make sure to put a valve on the return line going to the tank if you need to throttle it back to get enough flow to you manifold. True union ball valves wherever prudent

I really have a problem when it come to TUBV! I think I have 18 in my system!!!

Don

I have a gate valve that will need to be relocated. Right now its is befor the manifold and the return lines to the tank, I do have extra TUBVs, I'll ditch the gate valve (not TU) and use some TUBVs.

I have 1/2" hose barb ball valves that I am going to use on the reactor lines. I was thinking I would need to restrict the flow to the reactors more than to the tank.

[dcmartinpc]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I have a gate valve that will need to be relocated. Right now its is befor the manifold and the return lines to the tank, I do have extra TUBVs, I'll ditch the gate valve (not TU) and use some TUBVs

Gate valves are very nice if you need precise control over the flow. I have one on the outlet of my Iwaki 100 driving my ETSS skimmer. It makes adjustment VERY easy. It doesn't hurt to have it there, but I would not say it is %100 necessary on a tank return.

Don

[jharding08]

So I got the 1.5" TU and a bushing to threaded 1" for the pump outlet. I also got more 1" elbows, Ts, 45s, unions, just in case, since I havent figured out the outlet plumbing yet.

It got me thinking about something else. Where is all of this water going to go when I feed or turn the pump off?

I have a rather big sump for under a 48"x24" stand (36"x20"x16") (2nd Return not implemented yet):



Right now, with just a submersible pump with flex line running directly up and into the tank, the water level rises to about 5.5" from the top of the sump when I turn off the pump. I have anti-siphon holes drilled right at the water line in the return nozzles, so its not siphoning too much.

With the new setup, I will have more (not sure how much more) water coming back into the sump. I am thinking the horizontal run will not be more than 2' from the sump to the pump (if I have the inlet PVC in the middle of the sump). and the outlet will be the same.

The edge of the sump is about 7" from the wall, so it would be 17" plus however far I go into the garage.

Two questions, If I have the 1.5" pvc go up and over the sump into the return chamber, when I turn off the pump and the water all goes into the sump, will the Iwaki be able to pull the water out of the sump again with a dry inlet?

Also, if I need more return chamber volume, could I somehow plumb in another acrylic box with a 1" bulkhead and join the sump to that chamber with the 1" bulkhead I am no longer using? this will essentially increase my return chamber volume.

Thanks for the help, almost there

[jharding08]

Here is a schematic of how I envision the 1.5" PVC inlet plumbing to the Iwaki if possible. This is straight up and out of the sump and I will make a stand for the Iwaki in the garage at the right height.

My concern is that once the pump turns off for feed or maintenance, that:

A) all the water from the plumbing will dump into the sump and will be too much volume for the sump

B) once the water dumps into the sump, the plumbing will be dry and the Iwaki wont be able to start back up.

Here is the vision:



I still haven't figured out the outlet 1" plumbing yet

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

Here is a schematic of how I envision the 1.5" PVC inlet plumbing to the Iwaki if possible. This is straight up and out of the sump and I will make a stand for the Iwaki in the garage at the right height.

My concern is that once the pump turns off for feed or maintenance, that:

A) all the water from the plumbing will dump into the sump and will be too much volume for the sump

B) once the water dumps into the sump, the plumbing will be dry and the Iwaki wont be able to start back up.

Here is the vision:



I still haven't figured out the outlet 1" plumbing yet

Ahhh, ummm..... In order to run the pump in this configuration, a foot valve will be required, and the complete engineering calculations for the intake and outlet. You will not get a flooded intake, (required for centrifugal pumps,) when lifting water to the pump. Therefore you are going to use a significant portion of the pumps power to lift the water. Couple that to the horrible 1" return line and loc-line, and you are going to be scratching your head.

I don't want to be insulting, or offend you, but you are reasonably smart fella, that that is wasting his time. You are going to punch holes in a wall, to move a pump, the only problem with which is noise; instead of following good sound advice, or settling for less than ideal performance, you are opting for zero performance. I told you from the start, this was not a good idea. If it requires all of this, replace the pump.

Seriously, this is not such a complicated issue. It is only complicated if you want to do it your way. Punch a 2 3/8" hole towards the bottom of the sump. Run 1.5" pipe straight through the wall to the pump intake. Do not go up, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Run 1.5" pipe straight up from the pump, straight through the wall, and into the tank. Very simple and straightforward.

If you don't want to do this, I suggest you replace the pump. However, a better pump is going to have inlet sizes above 1.25". Next is move the sump to the garage as well. Why not go all the way? But then back through this again, when trying to advise you of the right way to run the drain lines...

[jharding08]

I do understand your advice and thinking about it now, it wouldn't be that difficult to run 1.5 on the outlet of the pump to the returns.

My main concern would be drilling the bigger hole for a 1.5" bulkhead. If you look at the picture of my stand, there isnt a ton of room to get a drill into the stand to drill in the side of the sump. And the sump is pretty snug in the stand.

If I do do 1.5 on the outlet, could I still run a T back to the manifold? How would I size the manifold If I want three 1/2" lines for TLF150 reactors? Can I stick with 1" like I have and just adapt it?

Also, I run 3/4" loc line on the return lines. For 1.5", is that ok with 2 returns? Also is it better to split the line nearer to the pump or the return nozzles?

I dont think I want to put the sump in the garage, its dirty in there and I like keeping tabs on it by just opening the doors to the stand.

I'm not trying to be hard headed here. I appreciate everyone's advice. Just wish I wouldve asked these detailed questions when I was originally planning and no water was in the tank!

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I do understand your advice and thinking about it now, it wouldn't be that difficult to run 1.5 on the outlet of the pump to the returns.

My main concern would be drilling the bigger hole for a 1.5" bulkhead. If you look at the picture of my stand, there isnt a ton of room to get a drill into the stand to drill in the side of the sump. And the sump is pretty snug in the stand.

I would find a way to drill it, even if it meant pulling the sump out for an hour...

If I do do 1.5 on the outlet, could I still run a T back to the manifold? How would I size the manifold If I want three 1/2" lines for TLF150 reactors? Can I stick with 1" like I have and just adapt it?

Depending on if you have "enough pump" to support the branch, no reason you can't branch off; 1" is a good size.

Also, I run 3/4" loc line on the return lines. For 1.5", is that ok with 2 returns? Also is it better to split the line nearer to the pump or the return nozzles?

Loc-line. This is something I consider a "hobby toy," good way to spend money, but of little to no practical value. We run 1.5" pipe to reduce the velocity (reduce pressure/friction loss,) then suddenly increase the velocity (reduce the diameter, 1.77in² -> 1.22in² for two 3/4", increase pressure/friction loss) which will reduce the flow rate. What is wanted is to keep the velocity down, which produces high volume (reduced pressure/friction loss.) This is done by keeping the 1.5" all the way to the outlet, e.g. a single outlet, a 45 dumping just below water surface. Let the power heads do their job, which is to distribute the return water to all points of the tank. Loc-line doesn't really help.

I dont think I want to put the sump in the garage, its dirty in there and I like keeping tabs on it by just opening the doors to the stand.

Don't blame ya...

I'm not trying to be hard headed here. I appreciate everyone's advice. Just wish I wouldve asked these detailed questions when I was originally planning and no water was in the tank!

You will think about it next upgrade...

[jharding08]

Thanks for the answers...a couple more -

1) the 45 going into the water, facing down or up? I will be running 1.5 to the top of the tank, but it will have to turn down a couple inches to get a 45 under the water line. My coast to coast overflow water line is 1 3/4" from the top of the tank

2) Should I run 1" or 1.5" to the manifold from the 1.5" return pipe/ pump outlet?

[uncleof6]

Understood, you have to turn the pipe down to get to the waterline. Waterline should be just above the top of the outlet of the 45, if that makes sense. (minimizes power out drain down, and agitates the water surface...)

If running a 1" branch make it a 1" branch. No sense is buying another 1.5" valve if it isn't necessary.

[dcmartinpc]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Understood, you have to turn the pipe down to get to the waterline. Waterline should be just above the top of the outlet of the 45, if that makes sense. (minimizes power out drain down, and agitates the water surface...)

If running a 1" branch make it a 1" branch. No sense is buying another 1.5" valve if it isn't necessary.

Agreed on all points! I think we have arrived at the solution Good luck with the transition. I am going to be redoing a little of my plumbing this weekend to get rid of some locline too. I didn't use it on my frag tank when I plumbed it a couple months ago and loved the results. Now I am nixing it on my display.

Don

[jharding08]

I measured the distance between my sump and the wall of the stand (room to get the drill and drill bit in to up my bulkhead to 1.5") and its only 11 3/8". Hopefully i can get the drill and drill bit in there and get a level hole cut.

I'm looking for a hole saw drill bits and BRS has a set of them for $20 (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/16-pie...l-bit-set.html). They dont have a bit for 2 3/8", the closest size is 2 1/2" (64mm). Will that work for 1.5" bulkhead?

Also, to run a horizontal 1.5" from the bulkhead, there is a horizontal and vertical piece of the stand in the way



If I do the 90 closer to the sump, I can miss the vertical board in the stand, but the bulkhead is low enough that I might have to drill through that horizontal piece of the stand at the bottom. That shouldnt affect the stability of the stand should it?

I am assuming when I up the bulkhead size I want to drill with equal spacing around the current hole, not try to share an edge to make the hole higher? I am thinking I want a downturned 90 elbow in the sump to increase the water it can pull when starting the pump and it wont run dry

[dcmartinpc]

In regards to cutting out the horizontal piece on the rear of the stand... You could reinforce it if you are concerned by drilling a hole through a 1x4 or 1x6 that the pipe could run through and then screw it on either side to the horizontal stand piece.

Likely not necessary, but a workaround if you are concerned.

Don

[jharding08]

I dont think it will make much of a difference, but I might reinforce anyway. You can see in the picture the 1x4 in the back that is in the way if I run a level horizontal 1.5" PVC from the bulkhead.

Does the 10 x pipe diameter apply at the bulkhead as well? Would I need 15 inches from the bulkhead before I make my 90? If that is the case, I would probably be drilling a hole in the back corner of the stand.

[jharding08]

Here's the new version of my plumbing set up. Any more TUBVs needed? Or just TUs?

[dcmartinpc]

If it were me, I would put either a union or a tubv right at the sump, in case you ever need it. I would also put a valve, tubv if you want, on the 1.5" line going to the tank past the 1" line for the manifold in case you need to put back pressure on the manifold of you
need more pressure for your reactors, etc.

Looking good!

Don

[jharding08]

Added some TUBVs and some BVs. Does anyone think a Check Swing Valve is a good idea by the pump or should the sump be able to handle the back flow?

[dcmartinpc]

I just thought. I would put a tubv at the sump. With just a union, if you ever need to remove the pipe, it would drain everywhere.

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by dcmartinpc

I just thought. I would put a tubv at the sump. With just a union, if you ever need to remove the pipe, it would drain everywhere.

Then I wouldnt need a TUBV by the pump, just a TU?

I'm also thinking about ease of use, since I'll be in a different room when pulling apart plumbing. Might be worth having a TUBV twice on that line, one in each room

[jharding08]

Will a TU Swing Check Valve cause friction on the return?

With the 45 just below the water line, there shouldnt be too much back siphoning into the sump, just the volume of the 1.5" plumbing. Hopefully the sump can handle it...actually, it will just be the vertical section of the 1.5" plumbing as the horizontal section will stay full since it is in line with the bulkhead.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

Will a TU Swing Check Valve cause friction on the return?

With the 45 just below the water line, there shouldnt be too much back siphoning into the sump, just the volume of the 1.5" plumbing. Hopefully the sump can handle it...actually, it will just be the vertical section of the 1.5" plumbing as the horizontal section will stay full since it is in line with the bulkhead.

Don't use a check valve, they will just fail when you need them the most. The failure probability on check valves and anti-siphon holes is 100%. If you have a volume issue in the sump, fix the volume issue.

[dcmartinpc]

Agreed. Check valves always work except when you need them to and snails or other gunk inevitably cover siphon holes. I think you will be ok. Just make sure it break right at the surface.

I personally would use 2 TUBV on the inlet in that config. 1 at the sump and 1 at the pump. That gives you the most flexibility in the long run and you will be glad you have it if you need it.

Don