ATO and return questions???

[scott3569]

Originally Posted by D-Nak

I just watched that video, and I still don't understand how the overflow is set up. To the left of what I thought was the drain line, I see a surface skimmer of some sort with a flat guard on it. If this is the drain, it's constantly pulling air, which means it's not a full siphon. If that's the case, then there's even LESS water moving through the pipe since there's air moving through it as well.

yes when it is at that level you are correct..it is not always at that level I have to adjust the ball valve on the return, to get the level in the DT high enough not to suck air in..when I get that level correct i think it is more like a full syphon i could be very wrong on that also..

Like I have been saying the adjustment of the ball valve on the return seems to make all the difference..But I have to keep tweaking it..I have ordered a gate valve for the return line..I am hoping the adjustments on that will be more forgiving..

[RocketEngineer]

The type of overflow scott3569 has on the tank uses an inverted "U" siphon to transfer water from the inside of the tank to the outside. Stretched out they look like this:

The central part needs to have all the air removed after which adding water to the inlet (left) pushes water through the "siphon" to the outside of the tank where it exits (right barb fitting). While cheap and easy to make, there are a number of inherent flaws that limit the flow this type of overflow can handle. I used one for 2 years and was never truly happy with it.

Scot3569, the single easiest fix for your setup is to remove the ball valve from the drain line and go directly from the outlet of the overflow into your sump. There increases and decreases in plumbing sizing are likely causing all sorts of funky things to happen to the water flowing through that line. Once the drain line is simplified, adjust the outlet on the pump until the overflow can keep up with the pump. KISS.

Good Luck

[CedzAquAddictio]

Originally Posted by scott3569

yes when it is at that level you are correct..it is not always at that level I have to adjust the ball valve on the return, to get the level in the DT high enough not to suck air in..when I get that level correct i think it is more like a full syphon i could be very wrong on that also..

Like I have been saying the adjustment of the ball valve on the return seems to make all the difference..But I have to keep tweaking it..I have ordered a gate valve for the return line..I am hoping the adjustments on that will be more forgiving..

That gate valve will help, but not be a cure. Been down that road...
I had gate valves and ball valves on my return and drain at one time back when I was running an external overflow. It was never right until I fixed my drain.

There are allot more things to distract you from enjoying your tank than the constant concern of coming home to a flood. The overflow is constant in your tank, and needs to fluctuate as little as possible. If there is going to be a valve, it is on the return side, but the return side needs to be large enough to stand up to it, and be consistent as well.

Plenty of good info in this thread, but you have some inconsistencies in your drain (not return) that need to be fixed to give you a good baseline to build upon...

Welcome to reefing. LOL!!!

[scott3569]

ok, I WOW thank you guys.. with all the information that has been given so far..it may very well be the over flow...Even though it was working well be for the ato maybe it was not working as well I as thought..

That said. At this point..my options are..

1. increase the size of the pipig for the over flow(maybe not the best answer,but certainly one of the easiest)

2. replace the tank with a drilled tank..( this is not going to happen any time soon, however with the knowledge that I have at this point my next tank will either be pre drilled or I will drill it myself).

3. don't use the ATO at leas for now..

I realize that the over flow may not be the ideal set up.. I don't argue that.. but it is what I have to work with and for the most part it does work...

So what if I increased the diameter of the over flow...or maybe make a dual overflow.. with an increased pipe size??

could that effectivly solve the issue at least untill I can get a tank that is drilled..

[CedzAquAddictio]

Originally Posted by scott3569

ok, I WOW thank you guys.. with all the information that has been given so far..it may very well be the over flow...Even though it was working well be for the ato maybe it was not working as well I as thought..

That said. At this point..my options are..

1. increase the size of the pipig for the over flow(maybe not the best answer,but certainly one of the easiest)

2. replace the tank with a drilled tank..( this is not going to happen any time soon, however with the knowledge that I have at this point my next tank will either be pre drilled or I will drill it myself).

3. don't use the ATO at leas for now..

I realize that the over flow may not be the ideal set up.. I don't argue that.. but it is what I have to work with and for the most part it does work...

So what if I increased the diameter of the over flow...or maybe make a dual overflow.. with an increased pipe size??

could that effectivly solve the issue at least untill I can get a tank that is drilled..

For the most part, yes, it will get you by until you get a drilled tank.

Also: With a properly sized overflow, you may find yourself not using the ball/gate valves at all, and running your return at full power. Not guaranteed, but I've done it after rebuilding my plumbing a few times.

You may also consider building some redundancy into your return as well in case one gets clogged or blocked temporarily by a snail, or something. A simple screen may suffice as well...

[scott3569]

ok so I guess I should maybe look into increasing the size of my over flow piping and get rid of the ball valve on the overflow line..I never use it any way..never have to mess with it..that may actually be obvious but figured i would mention it...

I just want to make sure that sounds like a decent plan, at least until I upgrade my tank..which I am pretty sure will happen, I already have thoughts of doubling the size..or close to it anyway..

[RocketEngineer]

Honestly, I would change the design of the overflow if you were rebuilding it. I would make the inlet pipe larger and then go into a reducer before the first elbow, stay the smaller size all the way through the last elbow before going back up to the inlet size at the outlet tee. By using a smaller diameter for the siphon portion you get higher flow through that section, helping to keep bubbles from forming in the siphon tube.

From there I would hard plumb as much as possible into the sump. You could use a union and sort section of straight pipe to be able to remove the filter sock. No need to have the restriction of the barb fitting if you can avoid it.

Just a thought.

[scott3569]

Originally Posted by RocketEngineer

Honestly, I would change the design of the overflow if you were rebuilding it. I would make the inlet pipe larger and then go into a reducer before the first elbow, stay the smaller size all the way through the last elbow before going back up to the inlet size at the outlet tee. By using a smaller diameter for the siphon portion you get higher flow through that section, helping to keep bubbles from forming in the siphon tube.

From there I would hard plumb as much as possible into the sump. You could use a union and sort section of straight pipe to be able to remove the filter sock. No need to have the restriction of the barb fitting if you can avoid it.

Just a thought.

hummm thats an interesting thought i may just try that..wouldn't take much to do..however if i go back to the inlet size after the tee in the syphon...would that not allow air into the system??

[RocketEngineer]

Originally Posted by scott3569

hummm thats an interesting thought i may just try that..wouldn't take much to do..however if i go back to the inlet size after the tee in the syphon...would that not allow air into the system??

You want air in the drain line so that it is quiet. The reason to go with 1.5" plumbing on the outlet side is that it is able to handle more flow in an air/water configuration than 1" could before it starts making noise.

[AwwNuts]

I'm about to plumb a HOB Overflow with 1.5" piping. Should a 90 degree elbow be added or a 45 degree to help it be quiet. I was going to add a gate valve just in case I needed to dial back because of gargling