natural filtration in marine aquariums

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

My goal here is to learn as much as possible and find the simplest most effective way to embark on my future endeavor. i love plants all the little critters in the live rock and sand as much as fish & coral. i know there are lots of ways to do things. i do not want to remove micro organisms or the foods they need. i would like to study them as well as effect on food chains and water chemistry. i want to know whats in the slime? in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

Who says multilevel nutrient pathways and recycling nutrients are not considered in reef keeping? Perhaps you should read a little on these hobby forums. They are quite a few pHd micro biologist & chemist on these threads.
Patrick

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

We can't naturally duplicate such wide ranging oceanic phyto and zooplankton ecosystems in an aquarium. But we can add our own foods.

However, it is possible to encourage benthic organisms in the sand bed and live rock. Refugiums are typically set up for this purpose. Predation is greatly reduced and some organisms drifting into the display tank as well as their larvae add nutrition for the primary consumers.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

sum thing else that seems unstudied is sulfur eating bacterias and other things we know happen in the ocean and practical applications of them. i don't have access to the equipment needed to retrieve let alone study deep sea things but i fell it should be done. and applied to help reduce environmental impacts and maybe create a new options for reef set ups allowing even a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

No need to go to the deep abyss. Hydrogen sulfide bacteria reside in DSB below the faculative bacteria that perform denitrification chemistry. Facultative bacteria are 100 times more efficient at processing nitrate which is a major issue in reef tanks. Macro algae and micro algae will process sulfur. I observe a thin sulphur line in my DSB. it is dynamic and it responds to the oxygen gradient.
Patrick

[RocketEngineer]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

The reason they are not widely kept is because they are HARD which means a person with 30 years of experience in the hobby, a biology lab and a 10,000 gallon setup has a challenging time keeping them.

I've been in this hobby for 7 years and I'm still very new at all this. When the folks with 20-30 years tell you there are easier ways to get the same result......I listen and try to understand WHY they go simple. Trust me when I say that most of what has happened in this hobby isn't new. Live rock as filtration was around in the 1940s. The main advances I have seen after reading old books and comparing them to today are the lighting options are vastly improved and the pumps are more efficient. When it comes to the biology, nothing has changed because we are trying to duplicate nature and that's the same as it was 60 years ago. We just got smarter about not killing off what we need to have a viable ecosystem in our homes.

[tkeracer619]

Micro life is great. There is a bunch of it in our tanks, most of it good, some of it not so good...

You don't need a crazy setup to get this started. I would suggest a 40 breeder, a 4' 120, a 6' 240, or a 6' 360. If you really want to go bigger it starts getting much more expensive. It can be easier to keep a large tanks water chemistry in check however it is also harder to correct it.

How do you plan on presenting this? Would one of the tanks be in a living area and the rest in a basement or dedicated room?

[TopOff]

So many people buy hundreds of dollars of LR to get adequate filtration.


Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.

I personally have 50lbs of LR and 2 lbs of bio balls. My tank is thriving. Just the bio balls alone would support 1,000/G. My tank is 250/G.

[usingthejohn]

Originally Posted by TopOff

So many people buy hundreds of dollars of LR to get adequate filtration.


Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.

I personally have 50lbs of LR and 2 lbs of bio balls. My tank is thriving. Just the bio balls alone would support 1,000/G. My tank is 250/G.

Where did you order them from?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective?

To support the nitrogen cycle, yes. To support other sorts of life? Sponges, worms etc.? Maybe not.

That said, most of us pick to use live rock in the display because we like the natural look of it. We sometimes end up with extra rock in refugia and such because we acquire more over the years for various reasons, such as to increase biodiversity and such, and can't fit it all into the display.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

sum thing else that seems unstudied is sulfur eating bacterias and other things we know happen in the ocean and practical applications of them. i don't have access to the equipment needed to retrieve let alone study deep sea things but i fell it should be done. and applied to help reduce environmental impacts and maybe create a new options for reef set ups allowing even a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

Sulfur denitrators are reasonably common. There are many threads on them.

[Paul B]

Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.

No, that is make believe, high tech and will only work great in the short term. If you want to go natural as the OP said, you just need rock and the beneficial bacteria, algae, cyano, pods and everything else that goes with it. I personally add mud from the sea and that's about it. My reef is very old and my theory is that Mother Nature has been doing this a lot longer than I have and she knows whats best. I use no manufactured media or plastic bio balls or bio pellets. Bacteria alone is all you need. If the bacteria in rock is not doing the job, you are not culturing them properly or short circuiting their function with manufactured media.

[Subsea]

One reason that live rock and substrates fail to perform in the long term is lack of husbandry: substrate is not cleaned thru vacuming or proper janitors (snails, pods, micro stars and a diversity of worms). Live rock fails to perform in the long term for similar reasons which can mostly be attributed to poor maintenance. This same lack of maintenance will plug up high performance media.

I have used natural systems for as long as Paul, but he is older than dirt and his systems look better.
Patrick

[Paul B]

Just a little older than dirt.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Subsea

One reason that live rock and substrates fail to perform in the long term is lack of husbandry: substrate is not cleaned thru vacuming or proper janitors (snails, pods, micro stars and a diversity of worms). Live rock fails to perform in the long term for similar reasons which can mostly be attributed to poor maintenance. This same lack of maintenance will plug up high performance media.

I have used natural systems for as long as Paul, but he is older than dirt and his systems look better.
Patrick

I don't know if it is poor maintenance or the fact that a deep sand bed can't be maintained properly. As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail
If he disagrees please don't ask me to look it up.. That a lot of posts to go through and separate from the Paris Hilton ones

[ktownhero]

Water changes or not, I will tell you that from my experience planted tanks are WAY higher maintenance than even reef tanks. If you have done planted tanks well, then just take the time to educate yourself as much as possible and you'll find reef tanks really aren't all that bad.

If you use lots of live rock and a refugium you essentially end up with a nearly maintenance-free, self-sustaining reef if you keep the stocking light and keep non-demanding corals like softies and the easier LPS.

[rekn]

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier. set up a 55g brute and have a pump mix the water, then hook up tubing so it pumps into the tank.

I understand you not wanting to hoss water back and forth, its a huge pita.

[Paul B]

As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail

I hate DSBs more than.............More than...........I can't even fathom how much I hate DSBs.

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier.

I made it easier, I only do it 4 or 5 times a year. But I actually kind of enjoy it, as long as I don't have to look at a dreaded DSB because I really hate those.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I hate DSBs more than.............More than...........I can't even fathom how much I hate DSBs.


I made it easier, I only do it 4 or 5 times a year. But I actually kind of enjoy it, as long as I don't have to look at a dreaded DSB because I really hate those.

Glad I did not have to look that up

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by rekn

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier. set up a 55g brute and have a pump mix the water, then hook up tubing so it pumps into the tank.

I understand you not wanting to hoss water back and forth, its a huge pita.

I agree I change one gal a day, add 10 mL of vodka chop up the sea food of the day pour a rum and coke all in one min
And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I agree I change one gal a day, add 10 mL of vodka chop up the sea food of the day pour a rum and coke all in one min
And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke

Kudos to good rum.
Patrick

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Kudos to good rum.
Patrick

It's got to be captain Morgan spiced rum and a nice big piece of smoked salmon

[Paul B]

And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke

I never allow my fish to enjoy my rum and coke. Probably because I drink Harvey Wallbangers and they have a wet bar.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I never allow my fish to enjoy my rum and coke. Probably because I drink Harvey Wallbangers and they have a wet bar.

They would appreciate the Harvey Wallbangers more then the CApt. M
A dose of carbon and a dose of vitamin C

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I don't know if it is poor maintenance or the fact that a deep sand bed can't be maintained properly. As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail
If he disagrees please don't ask me to look it up.. That a lot of posts to go through and separate from the Paris Hilton ones

As in many things, I have found absolutes don't hold up all the time. I have used DSB with Jaubert Plenum for 40 years. It took Julian Sprung and Charles Delbric 20 years of observation before detailing there use in Reef Aquarium Volume 3, "Science, Art, and Technology". Chater 6 on Filtration describes in detail the science of this method. On another point involved with nitrification and denitrification, these authors refute the hobby assumption that DSB and live rock are required to produce anaerobic conditions required for denitrification bacteria. Micro pores allow nitrification and deitrification bacteria in close proximity of each other. Also, there are denitriication bacteria that were discovered in the late 1990's that do not uptake carbon as in conventional denitrification. The process is called "anammox pathway". In a 4 month test study this past winter, I demonstrated that nitrate was processed by bioballs. At the time of the test, I was at a loss to explain how that could be. I can't tell you the names of the bacteria, I only know that bioballs consumed nitrate. In that test, which had too many variables to be scientific, bioballs exceed live rock in denitrification. Out of 7 media tested bioballs was only exceeded by rock rubble at processing nitrate.
Getting back to DSB. In the last few years, I have maintained simple macro lagoon display tanks that are skimmerless and sumpless. These tanks have maintained all types of coral including SPS. In retrospect, with the exception of growing true marine plants, I doubt that I would use a DSB again, when simpler methods are available. The combination of macro algae and shallow coarse substrate provide powerful and effective biofiltration that is more than adequate for reefkeeping. My friend, Gerald Hesslinger at Indo Pacific Sea Farms has a utube series on Responsible Reefkeeping in which he demonstrates natural filtration with zero water changes. Considering the expensive livestock that goes into our reef tanks, I understand the desire to use all the tools necessary. Each individual that maintains a tank has certain goals. I for one embrace natural systems. Without the bugs, our reefs and earth would be dead.
Viva la bugs.
Viva la difference.
Patrick

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Subsea

As in many things, I have found absolutes don't hold up all the time. I have used DSB with Jaubert Plenum for 40 years. It took Julian Sprung and Charles Delbric 20 years of observation before detailing there use in Reef Aquarium Volume 3, "Science, Art, and Technology". Chater 6 on Filtration describes in detail the science of this method. On another point involved with nitrification and denitrification, these authors refute the hobby assumption that DSB and live rock are required to produce anaerobic conditions required for denitrification bacteria. Micro pores allow nitrification and deitrification bacteria in close proximity of each other. Also, there are denitriication bacteria that were discovered in the late 1990's that do not uptake carbon as in conventional denitrification. The process is called "anammox pathway". In a 4 month test study this past winter, I demonstrated that nitrate was processed by bioballs. At the time of the test, I was at a loss to explain how that could be. I can't tell you the names of the bacteria, I only know that bioballs consumed nitrate. In that test, which had too many variables to be scientific, bioballs exceed live rock in denitrification. Out of 7 media tested bioballs was only exceeded by rock rubble at processing nitrate.
Getting back to DSB. In the last few years, I have maintained simple macro lagoon display tanks that are skimmerless and sumpless. These tanks have maintained all types of coral including SPS. In retrospect, with the exception of growing true marine plants, I doubt that I would use a DSB again, when simpler methods are available. The combination of macro algae and shallow coarse substrate provide powerful and effective biofiltration that is more than adequate for reefkeeping. My friend, Gerald Hesslinger at Indo Pacific Sea Farms has a utube series on Responsible Reefkeeping in which he demonstrates natural filtration with zero water changes. Considering the expensive livestock that goes into our reef tanks, I understand the desire to use all the tools necessary. Each individual that maintains a tank has certain goals. I for one embrace natural systems. Without the bugs, our reefs and earth would be dead.
Viva la bugs.
Viva la difference.
Patrick

IMO keeping a deep sand bed takes a lot of experience which you have Patrick

However new reefers do not and with the given that there are much more suitable and safer methods out there I would not recommend them to a newbie
I had one for 7 years and then it failed.. Thank goodness because I know longer had to listen to Paul tell me it was going to fail:
Btw
It failed because of an engineer goby deciding the railroad should go under the reef rather then over it

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Jimbo530

My goal here is to learn as much as possible and find the simplest most effective way to embark on my future endeavor. i love plants all the little critters in the live rock and sand as much as fish & coral. i know there are lots of ways to do things. i do not want to remove micro organisms or the foods they need. i would like to study them as well as effect on food chains and water chemistry. i want to know whats in the slime? in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

Jumbo,
Several efficient, straightforward techniques have been suggested to you of which a refugium stands out as the most proven with results. For those lofty goals of a purist natural filtration, I strongly suggest you read Chapter 6 titled "Filtration" of Reef Aquarium Volume 3: Science, Art, and Technology". The chapter covers half of the book from page 246-400. If knowledge is your desire than this is a must read. The last paragraph of this chapter deals with the reason that you may have received some heated responses to your OP.

It is titled "Reef Guruism"

We don't know why, but sometimes aquarist treat the various methods as if they were religions and their proponents prophets. We present them here as methods and proponents, explaining the reasoning behind the design and operation, the intent of their proponents and how systems could be improved, where that is possible. Our critical points are not meant to discredit any of the systems or their proponents, but to highlight features of the original philosophy that may need reconsideration, in our opinion. We present all of these systems here because each one teaches something valuable about the creation of a captive ecosystem, and each offers a reproducible technique for successfully establishing a coral reef community in a closed aquarium. As an aquarist, you will develop your own successful technique that may incorporate elements of one or several of these systems.

Enjoy your journey. "Reach for the Stars" or in this case, "The Deep Abyss".
Patrick