The death of my tank 5 year old tank.

[Sugar Magnolia]

Oh man! I'm very sorry for your loss.

[dyazdani]

Sorry for your loss, but you can rebuild! Good luck!

Remember that a GFCI and a circuit breaker operate on completely different principles. A typical circuit breaker (i.e. a non-GFCI breaker), offers over-current protection for heavy loads or short circuit conditions and are thermal or electromagnetic in nature. A GFCI measures the current balance between the hot and neutral connections using a differential current transformer. As long as the current is the same in and out, there is no issue. Once there is an imbalance above a certain point (I believe it is around 6mA) the unit will trip. The difference could be that some of that current is leaking out to a short, or through YOU. You do not want 15-20A of current going through you to trip the circuit breaker in the panel...

[ca1ore]

Oh, man, that sucks! Been there, done that, unfortunately When it happened to me, I bailed! Couldn't stay away forever though because I felt it was a moral imperative to come back bigger and better ..... at the very least I'll never lose a tank to the same cause ..... probably a different one, but not the same.

[johnike]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. Your tank has been a favorite of mine for a long time.

This.
Sorry, man.

[CuzzA]

That sucks.

But, all this nonsense about not running a GFCI is crazy. I encourage some of you to search the Internet for stories where unprotected aquarium circuits have burnt down people's homes.

The notion that it's better to run a system not on a protected circuit to potentially save your tank, while leaving your home vulnerable to being burnt down fails to even scratch the surface of common sense. I can assure you that if your home burns down, you'll lose your tank.

There are ways to insure this type of thing won't happen without losing the protection of a GFCI circuit.

1) Run a battery back up that will last at least 24 hours.
2) If you're going to be away from your tank for more than 24 hours, have someone check on it.
3) If you have a controller there's a couple ways to be notified in the event of a power outage or tripped GFCI/breaker. The easiest way is to register with ReefTronics, they will notify you after one hour of not being able to communicate with your controller.

Again, I encourage anyone reading this thread to not take the advice of those suggesting to remove or not use a GFCI. There is a reason why it's a required building code to have any wet area circuits protected. To stop the flow of electricity, whether it be to fuel a fire or kill you when you unintentionally become the ground for the circuit.

[boxfishpooalot]

Sorry to see that.

Fwiw I learned my lesson with cars long ago too. I bought a 3000$ stereo and didn't buy the alarm. Guess what happened?

So we should buy the "alarm" before we buy the "stereo".

[Drae]

I really liked your reef... Sorry about this tragedy man. Keep your head up, you still have a blue thumb.

[zeebies]

Very sorry Palting. Thoughts are with you.

[Pomacanthus1]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

But, all this nonsense about not running a GFCI is crazy. I encourage some of you to search the Internet for stories where unprotected aquarium circuits have burnt down people's homes.

The notion that it's better to run a system not on a protected circuit to potentially save your tank, while leaving your home vulnerable to being burnt down fails to even scratch the surface of common sense. I can assure you that if your home burns down, you'll lose your tank.

You mean like how people have done for decades? I've been here for years and I can't once remember someone's house burning down but I can remember several catastrophes caused by GFCI trips like this one.

I don't mind GFCI in the bathroom but anywhere else in the house or workplace they are terribly annoying and go off at the drop of a hat, running a tank on one of those unreliable POS is like playing Russian roulette with your livestock every day. I wouldn't trust one of those dang things to go off and save me when it needed to anyway.

[reefkeeper2]

Originally Posted by Pomacanthus1

You mean like how people have done for decades? I've been here for years and I can't once remember someone's house burning down but I can remember several catastrophes caused by GFCI trips like this one.

I don't mind GFCI in the bathroom but anywhere else in the house or workplace they are terribly annoying and go off at the drop of a hat, running a tank on one of those unreliable POS is like playing Russian roulette with your livestock every day. I wouldn't trust one of those dang things to go off and save me when it needed to anyway.

Do a search. It is irresponsible to advise people not to use a GFCI. I have been here for years and I have seen people who have had fires.

[DavidinGA]

Originally Posted by Pomacanthus1

You mean like how people have done for decades? I've been here for years and I can't once remember someone's house burning down but I can remember several catastrophes caused by GFCI trips like this one.

I don't mind GFCI in the bathroom but anywhere else in the house or workplace they are terribly annoying and go off at the drop of a hat, running a tank on one of those unreliable POS is like playing Russian roulette with your livestock every day. I wouldn't trust one of those dang things to go off and save me when it needed to anyway.

Exactly.

I can't remember the last time I ever heard a story of a house fire from not using a gfci on a tank. Lol

I've heard countless stories of tank crashes from gfci's tripping...

[Pomacanthus1]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

Do a search. It is irresponsible to advise people not to use a GFCI. I have been here for years and I have seen people who have had fires.

If you don't trust GFCIs on your own aquarium with potentially thousands of dollars worth of livestock, then it would be irresponsible to advise others to use them on their aquariums. Point of view.

[outssider]

My gfci has shut down 3 times. It caught my ballast "Twice" starting to short out, there was smoke and I was home at the time. once it detected a power head starting to go out.

I will always have a gfci hooked up.

[reefkeeper2]

Originally Posted by Pomacanthus1

If you don't trust GFCIs on your own aquarium with potentially thousands of dollars worth of livestock, then it would be irresponsible to advise others to use them on their aquariums. Point of view.

I suppose that would depend on if you value your livestock more than the lives of yourself and your family.

[Pomacanthus1]

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

I suppose that would depend on if you value your livestock more than the lives of yourself and your family.

Yes, everyone really was being reckless jerks the whole time before GFCI came out. For years, families were dying in scores in the name of keeping precious corals, but no longer is the saltwater hobby plagued by the shadow of death thanks to the amazing GFCI. That is, unless you happen to live in the aquarium itself.

[JMorris271]

Good point^
I am so sorry this happened to you and just can't imagine.
Because of this thread, when I go away for a few days, my system will be split. half criticals on GFI and half on wall socket.

[reefkeeper2]

Originally Posted by JMorris271

Good point^
I am so sorry this happened to you and just can't imagine.
Because of this thread, when I go away for a few days, my system will be split. half criticals on GFI and half on wall socket.

I always have it split between two CGFIs. One for the main pump, the other for the powerheads with a battery backup. It already saved me from a fire once when a leak dripped on an extension cord. I had just got home from work and noticed a burning odor and the main pump was off. Nothing happened to the livestock because the powerheads on the other CGFI were still on. Ask any electrician, you really are tempting fate if you don't use CGFIs around water.

[Palting]

Quick update:

The tank already seems better after two 40 gal water changes. Life is appearing in the tank. Several of my Mini maxi anemones are already opening up, and the baby leathers are showing polyps again. Plus, Duncans, acan lords, candy canes, hammers, etc are acclimating to the FOWLR and seem to be recovering well. A lot was lost, but not all was lost. I figure 6-8 weeks to clean and stabilize the tank, then I can start restocking. As they say in one of my favorite quirky movies, Galaxy Quest, "Never give up, Never surrender!"

[CuzzA]

Wow. So clearly none of you have searched the Internet for stories of aquariums burning down a house or people dying from electrocution. And just because it hasn't happened to you that means it won't happen. Right?

The argument that we had tanks before GFCI's proves they are not necessary is nonsense. That's like saying, cars used to not have seat belts, so screw it, we don't need seat belts when we drive cars.

A quality properly installed GFCI should not trip without a reason. Perhaps, you guys need to hire a licensed electrician. My properly installed GFCI's have never tripped. Ever!!!

Do whatever you want. Since you guys don't want to find the info, I'll share just a few examples.

One fire.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=584645

Experience from a electrical engineer hobbyist.
http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/200...st-found-dead/

Hobbyist dead from aquarium electrocution.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/gene...80-herkie.html

Here's some info from the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118853/099.pdf

[Khemul]

Originally Posted by Pomacanthus1

Yes, everyone really was being reckless jerks the whole time before GFCI came out.

But really, yes, they were.


Somehow though I get the feeling this thread wasn't meant to be a debate on the merits of GFCI's...

[reefkeeper2]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Wow. So clearly none of you have searched the Internet for stories of aquariums burning down a house or people dying from electrocution. And just because it hasn't happened to you that means it won't happen. Right?

The argument that we had tanks before GFCI's proves they are not necessary is nonsense. That's like saying, cars used to not have seat belts, so screw it, we don't need seat belts when we drive cars.

A quality properly installed GFCI should not trip without a reason. Perhaps, you guys need to hire a licensed electrician. My properly installed GFCI's have never tripped. Ever!!!

Do whatever you want. Since you guys don't want to find the info, I'll share just a few examples.

One fire.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=584645

Experience from a electrical engineer hobbyist.
http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/200...st-found-dead/

Hobbyist dead from aquarium electrocution.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/gene...80-herkie.html

Here's some info from the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118853/099.pdf

Thanks for posting that. I'm not astonished that people don't know this. It is pretty common actually and I see questions on other sites and forums about CGFIs. The disaster the OP went through is not uncommon either, and having two GFCI circuits gives you both safety and insurance. The OP was polite and thankful for the info but the attitude displayed by some of the others goes a long way in explaining why a lot of the more experienced hobbyists won't post on RC anymore.

[wetWolger]

Originally Posted by Palting

Quick update:

The tank already seems better after two 40 gal water changes. Life is appearing in the tank. Several of my Mini maxi anemones are already opening up, and the baby leathers are showing polyps again. Plus, Duncans, acan lords, candy canes, hammers, etc are acclimating to the FOWLR and seem to be recovering well. A lot was lost, but not all was lost. I figure 6-8 weeks to clean and stabilize the tank, then I can start restocking. As they say in one of my favorite quirky movies, Galaxy Quest, "Never give up, Never surrender!"

I would be curious to see what the tank looks like now. I know it's not flattering, but I am curious.

Sorry for your lost, but happy to hear some hardies lived through it.

[CuzzA]

Originally Posted by Khemul

Somehow though I get the feeling this thread wasn't meant to be a debate on the merits of GFCI's...

No, but the purpose of this message board is to learn. It's just unfortunate the GFCI education is at the expense of a thread on a tank that was killed back. And I do feel bad for the OP. I know that feeling of just wanting to throw up and quit.

Originally Posted by reefkeeper2

Thanks for posting that. I'm not astonished that people don't know this. It is pretty common actually and I see questions on other sites and forums about CGFIs. The disaster the OP went through is not uncommon either, and having two GFCI circuits gives you both safety and insurance. The OP was polite and thankful for the info but the attitude displayed by some of the others goes a long way in explaining why a lot of the more experienced hobbyists won't post on RC anymore.

You're welcome. I agree, sometimes the attitude is not helpful. But the great thing is, once conjecture gets trumped with facts, others reading can understand the reality and learn. They can read and come to sound conclusions on what to do with their own systems. And it's permanent on the board, no taking it back. I always try to be very thoughtful and think about what I'm going to post. For the experienced members, they should be encouraged by the fact that when others read these arguments, they actually look educated and knowledgeable and the ones throwing around baseless statements are the ones to avoid taking advice from.

By the way, two GFCI's on the same circuit won't necessarily fix the problem. If the first GFCI on the line gets tripped, the rest of the line including the second GFCI would be dead. However, two GFCI's, one on two separate circuits and splitting life support between them would be a better solution.

[reefkeeper2]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

By the way, two GFCI's on the same circuit won't necessarily fix the problem. If the first GFCI on the line gets tripped, the rest of the line including the second GFCI would be dead. However, two GFCI's, one on two separate circuits and splitting life support between them would be a better solution.

I took it for granted that people would know the second CGFI should be on a separate circuit. My mistake

[slief]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Wow. So clearly none of you have searched the Internet for stories of aquariums burning down a house or people dying from electrocution. And just because it hasn't happened to you that means it won't happen. Right?

The argument that we had tanks before GFCI's proves they are not necessary is nonsense. That's like saying, cars used to not have seat belts, so screw it, we don't need seat belts when we drive cars.

A quality properly installed GFCI should not trip without a reason. Perhaps, you guys need to hire a licensed electrician. My properly installed GFCI's have never tripped. Ever!!!

Do whatever you want. Since you guys don't want to find the info, I'll share just a few examples.

One fire.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=584645

Experience from a electrical engineer hobbyist.
http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/200...st-found-dead/

Hobbyist dead from aquarium electrocution.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/gene...80-herkie.html

Here's some info from the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118853/099.pdf

Very good information there. Thanks for posting it. While I don't personally use GCFI's on my tank for the reasons I stated previously, there are definitely very good reasons to do so and those links you posted certainly support that fact. I'd never really condone my reasoning for not running them as GCFI's are a very important safety measure . My system draws a lot of amps and I'd need a dozen or more GCFI's to support it which would pose serious issues.

UPS's were mentioned as a power back up for such an instance which is also great advice. Being in the computer industry for the last 27 years, that is certainly great advice. I've run UPS's for components on my tank but in my case because of my current draw, I'd need several smaller ones or a number of very large expensive ones to cover my pumps, controller and a few other important components. The biggest issue I found with UPS's is battery replacement. The batteries don't last very long and the AMP hours degrade over time. I've always used enterprise class APC ones and have several 1500 and 3000Kw ones at my office running my servers but even those need the batteries replaced every year if you expect them to last to their rating without power.

With regards to fires.. I have several smoke detectors around my tank in the closet where equipment is located, below the tank where the sumps are located, in my fish room etc. One of which is tied directly to my home alarm system. I even keep a fire extinguisher on the wall in the closet next to the tank and elsewhere. These are all things that us aquarists should take very seriously. Fires with our tanks are a serious concern and while I may not run GFCI's, I am very wary and vigilant when it comes to the prospect of a fire and electrical shock.

I also keep a rubber pond liner under my tank to insure that should I spring a leak, the water is captured and insulated from my tile floors which helps to mitigate the risk of shock given that I don't run a ground probe. Also something I'd typically suggest others run in conjunction with GCFI's. When I laid out my power for my tank, that was a serious consideration as salt water and power don't mix well. Sadly, that is an area that many aquarists don't really pay enough attention to. In my many years of being in this hobby, I've seen a lot of dangerous wiring jobs. Power bars sitting on the floor below a tank or on the floor under the stand for example can be deadly and that is something that many people don't realize. All it takes is a small leak and you have a recipe for disaster. As I said, all of my power sources are off the ground, mounted to FRP lined walls away from any potential water sources and or flood areas. Even my power outlets that my power bars are connected to are in an adjacent closet away from any water sources.

Also as mentioned, Reeftronics is a great asset as far as knowing of a power outage. I love Reeftronics and it's proved invaluable to me and others alike.

That said, your points and links are very valid and noteworthy. There are some lessons to be learned from your links.. Some of that information gave me food for thought as well. Thanks for taking the time to post those.


By the way, that's a nice DoDo in your avatar. That's what we call Mahi /Dorado here in So. Cal! I'm a die hard off shore fisherman and that's a beauty!