Losing Algae Battle

[Kebabian]

Originally Posted by OnceTrueFalseBr

no sand bed + no bacteria/pods + no nutrient reduction = Algae.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aj9WeD5v6U

I thought the sand bed aids with the conversion of Nitrites to Nitrates, which is also handled by bacteria on the live rock? My nutrient reduction I thought would be handled by regular water changes.... 5 gallon per week on a 16 gallon tan is MUCH more than 20% per month which most people seem to recommend.

In addition, many people have bare bottom tanks and don't have algae issues, so I'm trying to work out what is causing mine. One suggestion has been that it is overstocked, the wrasse was new last week, so has it been overstocked? And if it has, wouldn't weekley 30% water changes help with that?

I get so confused with all the opinions regarding sand bed / deep sand bed / no sand bed etc. Then Phosban or Chemipure. Carbob / No carbon.

I settled on good skimming and regular water changes after everything I had read. I just added the Phosban and Carbon and while I was at it, tried the Algaefix to help get rid of what is there. If this works, I'll switch from bagged media to a reactor and see if that keeps things away.

Any more input or direction would be welcomed and thanks to all for their help so far!

[GilliganReef]

I had issues with cyano and GHA. I bought a GFO reactor and now 3 months later the GHA is gone and the cyano is slowly disappearing. I did 25% water changes every week. While running a cup of GFO for 2 weeks for a month and now 1 1/4 cup of GFO for 4 weeks. I have a 40b with 20L sump.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by Kebabian

I thought the sand bed aids with the conversion of Nitrites to Nitrates, which is also handled by bacteria on the live rock? My nutrient reduction I thought would be handled by regular water changes.... 5 gallon per week on a 16 gallon tan is MUCH more than 20% per month which most people seem to recommend.

In addition, many people have bare bottom tanks and don't have algae issues, so I'm trying to work out what is causing mine. One suggestion has been that it is overstocked, the wrasse was new last week, so has it been overstocked? And if it has, wouldn't weekley 30% water changes help with that?

I get so confused with all the opinions regarding sand bed / deep sand bed / no sand bed etc. Then Phosban or Chemipure. Carbob / No carbon.

I settled on good skimming and regular water changes after everything I had read. I just added the Phosban and Carbon and while I was at it, tried the Algaefix to help get rid of what is there. If this works, I'll switch from bagged media to a reactor and see if that keeps things away.

Any more input or direction would be welcomed and thanks to all for their help so far!

I am a personal fan of balance.

A system that is balanced BASED on how it is found in Nature.

Balance is found and maintained and not forced.

the vide I linked they always state how the reefs they find are in balance when the bio masses equal out from bacteria all the way up the food chain to the predators.

Look at the ocean. the sand bed is not poured in it accumulates over time. the sand bed is home to beneficial bacterias(and parasitic bacterias) when the beneficial bacteria eat excess nutrients(or dont) other forms of life emerge. the next tier in the food chain. lets say that is algae. when algae gets eaten by fish r crabs they expell waste that is used by bacteria and other invertebrates(corals) crabs and clean up crews are eaten by fish. they expell wastes which is eaten by bacteria and smaller organisms. fish are eaten by predators. eels sharks etc.

in our closed system we lack predation above the fish level. so our fish don't disappear. however we still have a stack under them that needs to be fed. there is always a battle in water between bacteria and organisms for nutrients. some eat nutrients faster than other. algae can devour a tank if the parameters are not in check, or in check. Algae will ALWAYS grow. the trick is finding the right BIO MASS to consume it. and the appropriate bacteria bio mass to consume the wastes expelled by the organisms eating the algae.

without a good foundation of bacteria, or enough to handle the BIO LOAD by the BIO MASS, the nutrients will not be consumed fast enough so algae feeds off of it. water changes, bags of media, filters, reactors etc. are a band aid for closed circuit eco-systems. the more water you take out. you remove the balance that it is trying to find. also if you don't check ALl the parameters every time you change water, you will lose on other aspects of your balance.

If our goal as aquarium hobbyists is to replicate the real thing, then why are we not using the real thing as a model and trying to always change the natural methods?

[Kebabian]

Originally Posted by GilliganReef

I had issues with cyano and GHA. I bought a GFO reactor and now 3 months later the GHA is gone and the cyano is slowly disappearing. I did 25% water changes every week. While running a cup of GFO for 2 weeks for a month and now 1 1/4 cup of GFO for 4 weeks. I have a 40b with 20L sump.

Good to know. Thanks. I have a two little fishes reactor from my old 50 gallon, it's just too big to hide with this Nuvo 16 tank. I might give the Innovative Marine desktop reactor a shot. I love the design of the removable internal cartridge. Replacing the GFO in the two little fishes reactor was a PITA.

[craig colbert]

In my tank of the same size I have gone over kill on the filtration I have a canister filter designed for a 300ltr tank and have quite a few fish:

Two clowns
Clown Goby
Coral beauty
Chalk Goby

Admittedly I will be upgrading after crimbo but filtration is the key..

What do you have sump or canister?

[gaberosenfield]

For what it's worth, I battled GHA in my old 20 gallon tank for over 6 months. In the end, feeding less, running GFO, and heavily carbon dosing and skimming reduced the hair algae to manageable levels. My understanding as to why it takes so long to get rid of GHA is that it can take phosphates off your rock directly through its rhizomes. I think my rocks probably bound up a lot of phosphate during their time in that tank and once GHA started growing, it just pulled the phosphates off of the rock to fuel it's growth. It takes a long time to get the phosphates off of your rock because the phosphates are in equilibrium with your water column. Use GFO to remove the phosphates from your water and a tiny bit of phosphate will leach from your rock into the water. Then you have to remove that phosphate and the cycle continues until the phosphate is reduced to a very low level. Unlike your GFO, GHA can grow directly on your rock, so it doesn't have to wait for phosphate to leach into the water to take it up.

One last thing: while I was carbon dosing to lower my phosphates, my nitrates became undetectable. Then the GHA started coming back. I couldn't figure it out until I read about the ratio of nitrate to phosphate that the heterotrophic bacteria we take advantage of while carbon dosing require to grow. My nitrate was so low that carbon dosing wouldn't work anymore. I started dosing potassium nitrate into my tank and my skimmer went crazy. That finally reduced my GHA outbreak to a manageable level.

Good luck!

[Kebabian]

Originally Posted by OnceTrueFalseBr

I am a personal fan of balance.

A system that is balanced BASED on how it is found in Nature.

Balance is found and maintained and not forced.

the vide I linked they always state how the reefs they find are in balance when the bio masses equal out from bacteria all the way up the food chain to the predators.

Look at the ocean. the sand bed is not poured in it accumulates over time. the sand bed is home to beneficial bacterias(and parasitic bacterias) when the beneficial bacteria eat excess nutrients(or dont) other forms of life emerge. the next tier in the food chain. lets say that is algae. when algae gets eaten by fish r crabs they expell waste that is used by bacteria and other invertebrates(corals) crabs and clean up crews are eaten by fish. they expell wastes which is eaten by bacteria and smaller organisms. fish are eaten by predators. eels sharks etc.

in our closed system we lack predation above the fish level. so our fish don't disappear. however we still have a stack under them that needs to be fed. there is always a battle in water between bacteria and organisms for nutrients. some eat nutrients faster than other. algae can devour a tank if the parameters are not in check, or in check. Algae will ALWAYS grow. the trick is finding the right BIO MASS to consume it. and the appropriate bacteria bio mass to consume the wastes expelled by the organisms eating the algae.

without a good foundation of bacteria, or enough to handle the BIO LOAD by the BIO MASS, the nutrients will not be consumed fast enough so algae feeds off of it. water changes, bags of media, filters, reactors etc. are a band aid for closed circuit eco-systems. the more water you take out. you remove the balance that it is trying to find. also if you don't check ALl the parameters every time you change water, you will lose on other aspects of your balance.

If our goal as aquarium hobbyists is to replicate the real thing, then why are we not using the real thing as a model and trying to always change the natural methods?

Totally agree and appreciate the detailed analysis. I think what I'm trying to achieve is a good balance between the real thing and something that resembles the real thing. There are no skimmers, reactors, dosers, ATOs, water changes or salt mixes in the ocean. There are simply naturally occurring ones. I'm trying to find that balance of what I can care for, implement and afford. I've had a sand bed in the past on a larger tank and found it to make the tank look more natural, allow a place for nessarius snails to hide but also something additional that required maintenance. I figured I'd try without a sand bed this time to see how things go. Things have gone pretty well and I have considered adding a sand bed.

I guess my point is, I understand the need for balance and am just trying to find it. I'm sure once I do, I'll be waving goodbye to the algae.

[coralsnaked]

The n16G is too small for the bio load you have. It would be heavy with just the pair of clowns. But being it is bare bottom w/ live rock. It should be easier to do housekeeping chores. I'd loose the Nem and the sixline and go w/ only the clowns. Seens you are only keeping softies so great water quality is not really needed, however the GHA and it is GHA will cycle down on its own after some time. In the meantime you need to take a multi approach to manage it.
1. Increase the size of your water changes to to 2 gal per week to equal 12.5% per week to help manage exporting NO3 and PO4. 2. Pull and scrub off algae everyday w/ a toothbrush if needed. 3. When you do the water changes vacuum to bare bottom. Run GFO bags in the back compartment in hiogh flow area along w/ GAC. 4. If you have access to a club or LFS you can get a sea cucumber to graze on it till well reduced and then take it out and return to previous owner. But be aware if this critter dies in that small of a tank it will nuke the tank!. 5. You can utilize products like Algae Marine Fix or related products like StartSmart for saltwater that provide bacteria cultures to compete for food source from algae. 6. And the only real long term fix if you want to keep a large bio-load is to get a good backpack skimmer for the tank.

Its a battle but you can win it. Good luck

PS: The ocean does have a skimmer. In fact it has millions of them. It is called waves breaking on the beach creating foam. And you surely will fail if you try to mimic or replicate nature and the natural ocean. Its shear size and unbelievably low bio load is something you cannot copy in a reef tank. This path will lead to failure every time. In a 16 Gal tank, 1 snail would be many times over the bio load of the oceans. Think about it. And there is plenty of Algae in the oceans including GHA

[edinphilly]

I missed that you don't have a skimmer. I'm a big fan of heavily stocked high bioload tanks but a skimmer is a must. Check out the Tunze nano skimmers especially if you can pick up a used one locally or on eBay.

Also with adding any CUC including snails I'd go real slow and be careful or they become a sort of cycle of their own. i.e. add snails and they do the job, then no algae, some snails starve and die, decompose and release all those nutrients back into the water.

[Kebabian]

Originally Posted by edinphilly

I missed that you don't have a skimmer. I'm a big fan of heavily stocked high bioload tanks but a skimmer is a must. Check out the Tunze nano skimmers especially if you can pick up a used one locally or on eBay.

Also with adding any CUC including snails I'd go real slow and be careful or they become a sort of cycle of their own. i.e. add snails and they do the job, then no algae, some snails starve and die, decompose and release all those nutrients back into the water.

I forgot to mention that I do run a skimmer. IM Ghost. Skims well and I've been running it wet.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by Kebabian

Totally agree and appreciate the detailed analysis. I think what I'm trying to achieve is a good balance between the real thing and something that resembles the real thing. There are no skimmers, reactors, dosers, ATOs, water changes or salt mixes in the ocean. There are simply naturally occurring ones. I'm trying to find that balance of what I can care for, implement and afford. I've had a sand bed in the past on a larger tank and found it to make the tank look more natural, allow a place for nessarius snails to hide but also something additional that required maintenance. I figured I'd try without a sand bed this time to see how things go. Things have gone pretty well and I have considered adding a sand bed.

I guess my point is, I understand the need for balance and am just trying to find it. I'm sure once I do, I'll be waving goodbye to the algae.

=) sounds like you know what you gotta do =)

[macdaddynick1]

As ed already said too many fish, and I'm sure you don't starve your fish. And plus you never mentioned having a skimmer, unless I missed it . +1 on carbon dosing, I've heard a lot of good things about it but again you need a skimmer.
So 1 if you don't have a good skimmer a half of the frozen food cube per day will be enough in a 16 gallon to cause all the HA.

[xarg0n]

I guess if you are really interested in scrubbing algae off the DT, better diy an algae scrubber and scrub off the algae once in a week. Visit reefcentral.com for more information on it. There is no other proven remedy to fight algae and to keep no3 and po4 big bold zero. I am running it in my 125 USG tank without skimmer .I do have reef octopus bh 2000 and its a monster hob but I barely need to run it . also algae scrubbers flood water with all natural food source like zoo and phyto planktons like copepods etc and you will not even have to invest on commercial coral foods either. Give it a shot ..you will know yourself.

[xarg0n]

Basically I am talking about harvest algae to fight algae

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Also what lighting are you using?

[Mrramsey]

I would also suggest looking into GFO and Carbon. And as ED pointed out that is a pretty heavy stock for a 16g.

[Kebabian]

I'm feeling the need to summarize the suggestions and status:

1. Run a skimmer - I am and have been, it's a IM Ghost
2. Use GFO and GAC - I started doing this a week ago. Will look to move to a reactor in place of bagged in the sump.
3. Reduce feeding - Will go from every day/every other day to once every 3 days.
4. Increase water changes to 2 gallons per week - Have been doing 5 gallons per week until I started dosing Algaefix a week ago. Will continue this trial for another week.
5. Reduce BioLoad - Might donate the Wrasee and/or the Anemone although I love having both of them.
6. Sandbed - Jury is still out on this one. So many debates and so many pros and cons to each.
7. Lighting - Using two IM Skyye LED lights. Have reduced to 1 hour of Actinic - 4 hours of daylight and actinic - 1 hour actinic - off..

Thank you ALL so much for your insight / opinions and thoughts.

[whosurcaddie]

Originally Posted by Kebabian

I thought the sand bed aids with the conversion of Nitrites to Nitrates, which is also handled by bacteria on the live rock? My nutrient reduction I thought would be handled by regular water changes.... 5 gallon per week on a 16 gallon tan is MUCH more than 20% per month which most people seem to recommend.

In addition, many people have bare bottom tanks and don't have algae issues, so I'm trying to work out what is causing mine. One suggestion has been that it is overstocked, the wrasse was new last week, so has it been overstocked? And if it has, wouldn't weekley 30% water changes help with that?

I get so confused with all the opinions regarding sand bed / deep sand bed / no sand bed etc. Then Phosban or Chemipure. Carbob / No carbon.

I settled on good skimming and regular water changes after everything I had read. I just added the Phosban and Carbon and while I was at it, tried the Algaefix to help get rid of what is there. If this works, I'll switch from bagged media to a reactor and see if that keeps things away.

Any more input or direction would be welcomed and thanks to all for their help so far!

No sand bed is fine man. It actually helps to keep the system cleaner. A reactor will really help you on keeping the phosphate under control.

To the person that said no sand bed is contributing to his nutrient problem... please stop.

[whosurcaddie]

Originally Posted by macdaddynick1

As ed already said too many fish, and I'm sure you don't starve your fish. And plus you never mentioned having a skimmer, unless I missed it . +1 on carbon dosing, I've heard a lot of good things about it but again you need a skimmer.
So 1 if you don't have a good skimmer a half of the frozen food cube per day will be enough in a 16 gallon to cause all the HA.

He's nitrate limited though so it wont help. He's already at 0 nitrates dosing carbon isn't going to help at all.

[whosurcaddie]

Originally Posted by xarg0n

I guess if you are really interested in scrubbing algae off the DT, better diy an algae scrubber and scrub off the algae once in a week. Visit reefcentral.com for more information on it. There is no other proven remedy to fight algae and to keep no3 and po4 big bold zero. I am running it in my 125 USG tank without skimmer .I do have reef octopus bh 2000 and its a monster hob but I barely need to run it . also algae scrubbers flood water with all natural food source like zoo and phyto planktons like copepods etc and you will not even have to invest on commercial coral foods either. Give it a shot ..you will know yourself.

About to build one myself. Starting to think its the most efficient and least harmful filtration out there.

[xarg0n]

Originally Posted by OnceTrueFalseBr

Also what lighting are you using?

Is it the algae scrubber you want to point at ?

Then its 660nm deep red LEDs 18 hours a day, 6 hours off.

[macdaddynick1]

That's a very good point actually but wouldn't the bacteria compete with algae for any new nitrates?

[xarg0n]

Well, I would say from all these years of exp, running a skimmer while using an algae scrubber is a total waste. As scrubbers remove the mal nutrients of the water and returns mainly the food for the entire ecosystem, there is no point in skimming them off. Also the bio film and soluble bio load which is basically DOC (dissolved organic carbon) cannot be skimmed of no matter how good the skimmer is. Skimmers can only skim off POC ( particulate organic carbon) which will mainly consist of the various planktonic food source. The amount of money spent in GFO and GAC, electricity bill for running skimmers and commercial coral foods can be better invested in good quality corals and other species.

[Teenreefer15]

for me I left the hair algae and it eradicated itself. Same with cyano.

[xarg0n]

Originally Posted by macdaddynick1

That's a very good point actually but wouldn't the bacteria compete with algae for any new nitrates?

Let them do...all we want is a nitrate free system. And dentrifying bacteria grow under anaerobic conditions which is specifically possible with a DSB or a denitrator. If there are any , at all they will get there share any way. The rest will be handled by scrubber . that's all !