why to not use a float valve on ro/di in sump

[Cysco]

I think this thread has some good tips and real world results of how things can go wrong.

No disrespect so don't take me the wrong way but I have used a float valve for years with success. It is only on a 10 gallon can though and not tied to an RODI solenoid unit. I think the title should be more like "How to properly use a float valve" or something similar.

Also, it is not good to short cycle the RODI units. So unless your topping up with like 30 gallons each time (that would be a huge tank) I would never recommend anyone to use any kind of cheap float valve for that application.

To properly setup a float valve one should consider failure and only allow a small, fixed amount of water to be available to go into the tank, ideally only what the sump can hold if the entire container were dumped in by a failed valve.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

Does this mean the float valve itself failed? No, but the method of using it did and for this discussion that is the same thing.

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

Failing to safeguard against snails is not the same as the valve failing. That's equivocation of the term fail, which is of course... fail.

Try to read the whole post and quit splitting hairs. The whole point of this thread is talking about float valves failing, which would also include the use of them. You can sit there and argue about the mechanics of float valves all day, but the bottom line is using them in the way that we are talking about, connected directly to a RODI, will be a situation of failure in many cases.

[mussel and hate]

Originally Posted by natereinhold1

I no longer employ it to give you a picture but yes they do fail mussel and hate. Where the stainless steel pin goes through the valve arm wallowed out and no matter what, because of the change in geometry, the valve face no longer held parallel to the seal when pushed up by the float, therefore a complete and total failure of the valve. I said why not to use a float valve in the sump hooked up to an ro/di, read the title, I still use float valves all of the time, just not hooked up to an endless supply of freshwater into my sump

Thank you for the response. I was genuinely curious as to the failure mode. I can understand how even stainless steel would corrode over time and cause failure.

The valve I use is branded Wait and made entirely from some type of black plastic including the axle. It is one of two in use for two decades. I did have it plumbed direct for a couple of years but realized the peril it posed and switched to a res approximately 10% of DT capacity.

The face seals on both my floats, all three including the furnace humidifier are in excellent condition and still seal properly after all these years. I do inspect and clean them once or twice a year when I inevitably meddle with my set-up.

I myself have experienced a major tank crash a few years ago and I understand how devastating such a loss can feel. A cracked power cord insulator allowed copper to leach into my water and killed corals I'd had since the 80's. Almost a complete wipe out. Needless to say I don't submerge power cords any more. In retrospect I feel fortunate that I wasn't electrocuted.

It is a challenge to safeguard against equipment failures and other hazards that can kill our tanks which is why I tend to champion the use of simple mechanical mechanisms in place of complex electronic systems. There is less to fail and periodic inspection and maintenance is much more practical.

Good luck to you and your new smaller reef.

[mussel and hate]

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

Try to read the whole post and quit splitting hairs. The whole point of this thread is talking about float valves failing, which would also include the use of them. You can sit there and argue about the mechanics of float valves all day, but the bottom line is using them in the way that we are talking about, connected directly to a RODI, will be a situation of failure in many cases.

I read the whole post. You made an illogical argument to support your opinion, I refuted it.

The thread is actually about the perils of an infinite water supply coupled to any automatic control valve. When you try to make it about float valves you do a disservice to any who read here. Particularly when you equivocate.

[rwb500]

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

I read the whole post. You made an illogical argument to support your opinion, I refuted it.

The thread is actually about the perils of an infinite water supply coupled to any automatic control valve. When you try to make it about float valves you do a disservice to any who read here. Particularly when you equivocate.

you're still here? i thought this conversation would be over after my first post. the thread is about how bad float valves are. float switches are both intrinsically better and much easier to connect to each other for redundancy. if it weren't for people like you, float valves would be a thing of the past and we wouldn't have to keep arguing about stuff like this to make sure nobody steers newcomers towards an inferior technology that has a good chance of ruining their reefs. please re-read my point about the monkey if you still think that float valves are just fine.

[mussel and hate]

Seriously? Float switches are more reliable and easier to use than float valves?

The very reason I'm still posting is to dispel such wrongheaded notions.

Go check your furnace humidifier and let me know if there is a float switch there or a float valve. Simple mechanical systems always trump complex electromechanical systems. Float valves are here to stay.

Even the OP continues to use a float valve though with further safeguards. This alone should persuade you of your folly.

Your post was as ridiculous as it was insulting. I see no reason to review it as there is no wisdom to glean. You however might benefit from reading the whole thread end to end.

Edit:

Here's another thread for you http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2463343

Tell these poor fellows the perils of the evil float valve.

[jason2459]

Neither are failsafe. Both need redundancies. Both will fail.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

Go check your furnace humidifier and let me know if there is a float switch there or a float valve. Simple mechanical systems always trump complex electromechanical systems. Float valves are here to stay.

Last time I checked this thread we were talking about float valves on aquariums not furnaces. And before you say it...Yes there is a significant difference between the two applications. Furnaces do not have the same influences that occur on float valves as you would find in an aquarium environment. And that matters significantly.

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

Even the OP continues to use a float valve though with further safeguards. This alone should persuade you of your folly.

Yes and he does so due to their inherent potential for problems.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Neither are failsafe. Both need redundancies. Both will fail.

I agree. It is far easier to create a workable back up for a wired float switch than it is for a mechanical float valve.

[Lavoisier]

Originally Posted by rwb500

this whole discussion is about why you should never rely only upon a float valve. you said you think float valves are perfect. now you are saying they are perfect if you have adequate backup measures. those are two very different arguments. my primary ATO regulator could be a monkey with an on/off switch if I had a float switch and solenoid as a backup. the point here is please make sure you are not advising anyone to use a float valve without some redundant source of control.

Trolling?! This is one of the many reasoning I use an Apex, dosing pumps, float valves and float swithes, with monitors for PH, ORP, salinity, and temp with Fusion so I check several times a day at home or on the road. One simply cannot have enough checks and redundancy..

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by mussel and hate

Here's another thread for you http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2463343

Tell these poor fellows the perils of the evil float valve.

While that thread is on the topic of float valves, it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. They are talking about filling an RO reservoir and problems of it overflowing due to various problems. here we are talking about topping off a tank fed directly from an RODI unit which can result in a dead tank. The worst that can happen in the cases talked about in the thread you mentioned is water all over the floor or down the drain and wasted. HUGE difference between the two situations.

Since this thread has gone down the same misdirected road that so many do here, I've had enough of this argument. I'll keep doing it the way I feel is best.

[Lavoisier]

The best way to check against a bad float valve or a float switch is to put them on timers, limiting the downside by a time.

[Wazzel]

Float valves work just fine. If you use one you just need to take the precautions appropriate for float valves.

No matter if you use a float valve or switch, never attach directly to an RO/DI unit as your top off. Short cycling the filter is bad for the filter. Having an infinite water supply hooked to something that might fail open if risky.

[jason2459]

Yes, float valves work fine and I use one on my salt mixing station and ATO res. both connected directly to my ro/di but its not continuously on. They are there as redundancy for my memory if I forget to check and turn off the supply line. The issue is when people believe they can be relied on with out fail.

[Wazzel]

I have used float valves as my tank topoff before. I still used them to shut my RO/DI off when making water. I work under the notion that any piece of kit will fail at some point in time and take appropriate precautions. Someone said you can never have to many checks. That is actually not true. You can over safe yourself into problems. The trick is to have the correct checks.

[Cysco]

Wow, so many passionate people here. Its very simple to prevent catastrophe with any float valve, prox, etc. One very easy way is not having it tied to an endless supply of water like an RODI solenoid. I would say you could find a mode of failure with anything wether it be electrical or mechanical you just need the foresight to determine the modes of failure and put proper precautions in place. For instance a high level sensor/float and then a last resort high-high level that should be a trigger if your high level fails. Set the high-high with just a little margin as well so you are not walking such a fine line.

Good luck to you all.

[Lavoisier]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

I have used float valves as my tank topoff before. I still used them to shut my RO/DI off when making water. I work under the notion that any piece of kit will fail at some point in time and take appropriate precautions. Someone said you can never have to many checks. That is actually not true. You can over safe yourself into problems. The trick is to have the correct checks.

My dear friend, float valves do fail. Just because you have not experienced a failure does not negate the fact that other have experienced catastrophic failures (I'm one of those!!). The safe, rational response it so connect your float switches to times so that if they fail the amount of fresh water allowed to flow into your saltwater tank is limited. This is simple wisdom, born out by experience.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by Lavoisier

My dear friend, float valves do fail. Just because you have not experienced a failure does not negate the fact that other have experienced catastrophic failures (I'm one of those!!). The safe, rational response it so connect your float switches to times so that if they fail the amount of fresh water allowed to flow into your saltwater tank is limited. This is simple wisdom, born out by experience.

I never said they do not fail. Go back and read what I wrote. I plan my systems assuming that every piece of kit will fail and plan around dealing with that.

My laundry room has a floor drain. If my bucket float fails the floor drain will deal with it and I will have little to clean up.

[Lavoisier]

Wazzel, I did read through your thread. I apologize if I missed a point you were making. We need to be sure that new folks in our hobby do not misunderstand the complexities and need for redundancies in our systems. I thought your were suggesting that putting in secondary systems were unnecessary. I happy to see that we agree that you have to plan for failure in our primary setups.

[Wazzel]

Well sometimes it is not about adding in redundancies but planning to handle a failure. If I was to use a float valve on my current tank the top off containers would be 10 gallon and never full. My sump has about a 8 gallon cushion and my tank evaporates 5 gal a week. So the failure would be delt with. Like with my water bucket a failure would be a low impact event.

[natereinhold1]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Yes, float valves work fine and I use one on my salt mixing station and ATO res. both connected directly to my ro/di but its not continuously on. They are there as redundancy for my memory if I forget to check and turn off the supply line. The issue is when people believe they can be relied on with out fail.

That is exactly what I use them for now, just in case I forget that im filling my ato or nsw res. For ato I use the hydor system, it has a high and low level switch and a too full alarm and if the pump runs longer than 10min and its still not topped off it kills the pump and sets off an alarm

[Lavoisier]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

Well sometimes it is not about adding in redundancies but planning to handle a failure. .

??? Not sure what you mean. Adding in redundancy is planning for a failure.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by Lavoisier

??? Not sure what you mean. Adding in redundancy is planning for a failure.

Understanding your system and failure modes. Sometime the best way to deal with one thing is just making sure the system can handle it, not adding additional equipment. That back up equipment can fail also.

I am an engineer and design interesting tooling for a living. Often we deal with failure potential by making sure it can be contained, not by adding additional kit since it is not always possible or practical. I take a similar approach with my tank.

[Lavoisier]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

Understanding your system and failure modes. Sometime the best way to deal with one thing is just making sure the system can handle it, not adding additional equipment. That back up equipment can fail also.

I am an engineer and design interesting tooling for a living. Often we deal with failure potential by making sure it can be contained, not by adding additional kit since it is not always possible or practical. I take a similar approach with my tank.

Still not sure what your point is in relation to practical set up for a saltwater reef aquarium...?? Some detail might be helpful.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by Lavoisier

Still not sure what your point is in relation to practical set up for a saltwater reef aquarium...?? Some detail might be helpful.

My point is adding equipment is not always the best solution. Total system planning is a much better approach. I have given two examples already.