Gone skimmerless ! - Page 2

ReefWreak · 06/17/2015, 07:12 AM

I mean, that's why I got rid of my algae/fuge, because I could never get any nitrate or phosphate readings after initial cycle.

You could do more fishes, because it will mean more inputs --> more gross nutrient count and you'll either increase nitrate, ammonia, and phosphate levels, but eventually the fuge will catch up again. Or your tank will crash and you'll get a nutrient explosion.

That's my biggest concern with the idea of more gross nutrient addition (gross would be increased inputs, with the intent that net nutrients stays the same, i.e. output [fuge/skimmer] keeps pace with inputs) is that if there are any hitches on the output side, you're screwed, and will have severe issues, like algae in the display, bleaching/coral death, etc.

If you stay low nutrient, and have any output issues, your nutrients will rise slowly because ideally you've kept your inputs lean. It's a tough balance.

jestronix · 06/18/2015, 03:46 AM

So we are using the most effective filter there is, too effective ? With a bit of GAC we have some seriously clean water, we can feed heavy, our fish can get fat, it's like a dream come true. But your right we don't have any insurance for any sudden increases and to get to a sweet spot u sit on a knifes edge.

I can't get a reading but my SPS and LPS are happy for now.

Mike paletta runs a tank with just a few hours a day, I suspect he avoids taking too much of the goodies out.

Quick vid of how the tank is progressing.

http://youtu.be/OCDxtcbYMLM

Webmanny · 06/18/2015, 06:56 AM

infusionluke · 06/18/2015, 03:59 PM

Looks great! Love the display fuge!

jestronix · 06/19/2015, 03:03 AM

Thanks guys

always nice to get some encouragement

jestronix · 06/27/2015, 06:18 AM

Time for some close ups

.

And my filter

And my really crude scrubber

jestronix · 06/27/2015, 06:24 AM

I've noticed in the fuge, my cyano will grow so thick that eventually it will peal off the glass and rise to the surface where I let it grow into a thicker mat, then scoop out each week. Everything is super happy with the absence of a skimmer, also for my return u can see sitting on the side of the fuge is a little CPU pump, this is all I use for my return. I believe this is allowing fish poop etc in the DT to stay in contact with coral longer. However I'm still seeing about 20 times turn over a day.

jestronix · 07/01/2015, 02:47 AM

Anyone up for roots ?

ReefWreak · 07/01/2015, 02:41 PM

Do you have any substrate down there for the roots?

I'm not sure how long you've used caulerpa, or how familiar you are with it, but make sure to keep it well pruned as it can go sexual and have a complete meltdown (i.e. release all of it's nutrients at once) if not pruned regularly. That's why chaeto is so much more popular these days instead of caulerpa.

Also, as ghetto as your scrubber is, your light reflector is equally as ghetto

jestronix · 07/01/2015, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefWreak

Do you have any substrate down there for the roots?

I'm not sure how long you've used caulerpa, or how familiar you are with it, but make sure to keep it well pruned as it can go sexual and have a complete meltdown (i.e. release all of it's nutrients at once) if not pruned regularly. That's why chaeto is so much more popular these days instead of caulerpa.

Also, as ghetto as your scrubber is, your light reflector is equally as ghetto

Nah no substrate, ive never had a problem apart from when i didn't run the light 24/7, since then caulerpa has been fine.

Yeh how good is that light ! simple solution ..... it wont be forever, but it looks awesome, actually the difference in refection was insane, mmm ghetto halides ? lol.

jestronix · 07/09/2015, 06:34 AM

Harvest time, green cyano goodness , scooped out a nice bowl of this.

Tanks humming along, growth and colour.

ReefWreak · 07/09/2015, 09:49 AM

Eiew to the cyano, nice to the FTS! Lookin good!

I'm still using my nano skimmer, but got rid of my fuge. Got a Hanna checker, and registering around 0.055ppm. I bet it was lower with a fuge, but I can't argue with my growth and colors. Once you start dumping the 2 part in there consistently, growth and color just take off!

bernie lyons · 07/09/2015, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webmanny

Found the thread I mentioned above. Here is the video. I think it looks very promising if you will keep up with the maintenance of the scrubber and harvest the algae on schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM

But how do you prevent the water from turning green ? every time you harvest algea it release tons of spors .
Sps tanks would certainly not thrive and in fact regress in such systems.

Webmanny · 07/09/2015, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie lyons

But how do you prevent the water from turning green ? every time you harvest algea it release tons of spors .
Sps tanks would certainly not thrive and in fact regress in such systems.

Please note that I haven't done this personally, so I cannot provide any proof, but if you look at the whole video, he has SPS corals and it looks like they are doing fine. All I can say is that I will test this system once I get the frag tank setup and I may then be able to confirm or deny these claims, but it looks possible.

I think we have all been conditioned to think that there is only one way of running a reef tank and that involves super expensive equipment and mil spec equipment. However, the only skimmer I've seen in the Atlantic is the coast line and a few waves. From what I can tell, it doesn't involve a pump or a collection cup. :-)

ReefWreak · 07/09/2015, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie lyons

But how do you prevent the water from turning green ? every time you harvest algea it release tons of spors .
Sps tanks would certainly not thrive and in fact regress in such systems.

1. I've never seen a tank's water turn green. Mine is kinda white/gross looking (with a UV flashlight), so maybe it's gelbstoff, but it's never been a concern of mine (perhaps it should be).

2. The algae does release tons of spores. The key to keeping it from being problematic, is that you provide a more habitable environment to the algae in your refugium/Algal Turf Scrubber than your display tank. What that means is that you have more mixed air/water, with light shifted in the spectrum that green algae prefers (red/yellow/whiter)

SPS tanks can thrive just fine with a solid refugium or ATS setup. Go look at JBNY's tank thread, and tell me that he didn't have a successful SPS reef with an ATS (his Pax-bellum ATS chamber/reactor thing).

I don't mean to be confrontational, but one thing I've definitely learned in this hobby is that there's rarely a right or wrong. We're experimenting and learning new things every day, and doing things differently every day.

For me, the biggest thing I've learned in the last year or so is the appreciation of net nutrients vs. gross nutrients. That you want high gross nutrients, but low net nutrients in an SPS tank. That means a continuous stream of available food, but quickly removing it before it breaks down and pollutes the water, or absorbing the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/phosphate before it starts to build up in the water.

bernie lyons · 07/09/2015, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webmanny

Please note that I haven't done this personally, so I cannot provide any proof, but if you look at the whole video, he has SPS corals and it looks like they are doing fine. All I can say is that I will test this system once I get the frag tank setup and I may then be able to confirm or deny these claims, but it looks possible.

I think we have all been conditioned to think that there is only one way of running a reef tank and that involves super expensive equipment and mil spec equipment. However, the only skimmer I've seen in the Atlantic is the coast line and a few waves. From what I can tell, it doesn't involve a pump or a collection cup. :-)

Ah you're not serious I assume in your last statement are you ?
Try again,where does all that fine air/water crashing through rocks and finally onto the shore line do? Isn't that what a protein skimmer does with an venture or pinwheel ?

dillct · 07/09/2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie lyons

Try again,where does all that fine air/water crashing through rocks and finally onto the shore line do? Isn't that what a protein skimmer does with an venture or pinwheel ?

Surface water runoff and groundwater flows?..it all ends up back in the ocean. Basic water cycle stuff. You aren't seriously suggesting all that foam on that shoreline stays there once i t washes up?

Devaji108 · 07/09/2015, 04:52 PM

wow beautiful tank! looks amazing!!!
I am also setting up a skimmer less system!
be using an upflow ATS but also have 2 feet of the 40br sump that i was thinking of macros but thought my ATS would out compete them...guess we will see.
I always thought you have to have sand to grow it. is that species fern?

DMChris · 07/10/2015, 01:30 AM

@jestronix - Very awesome tank!

I too have gone skimmerless. First off, I am new to this forum; although I am always reading and researching through this wonderful site. I have a 100gal display with a 150gal display refugium and a 50 gal sump. I have kept my skimmer in my sump, but I removed the cup. It is like a volcano that flows out of the skimmer neck. I did this to increase air into the tank. I have an air pump that is providing oxygen, but I believe with my water volume that I needed more air. I am running a small amount of Dr Tims pearls in my GFO reactor. My display refugium has chaeto, grape caulerpa, and some other macro algaes that I was able to get from a friend. I have a few fish in my tanks too. I am also scraping my glass daily due to the build up, but my my level are quite low to non registering with the Hanna test kits. I do believe a skimmer does a system great, but it does not distinguish the good particle and bad particles.

jestronix · 07/10/2015, 04:51 AM

thanks guys lots of input.

That pax Bellum on JBNY's tank is awesome, and running very little elect do get the job done. My fuge is about 80w of t5 x 24/7. I guess he's running a pump and at least a 40w bulb.

Time will tell on how this setup goes, so far it's very cool, I've dialled in the two part and leaving kh at 7.8, and calc around 400.
I run a very slow turn over through the sump using a little PC water pump, $15 off eBay, brushless 12v about 500l/h, this makes for a very very quiet tank, plus no skimmer noise.

New addition is my dustpan ATS, just for shits and giggles , but it's grown a little algae after a week. I ruffed up the plastic to see what result I would get.

I don't bother measuring for phosphate or nitrate anymore, I'm sure it's there to some degree just the saliferts don't register.

I'm changing the water every two weeks of about 10% I could get away with less I guess.

My question and hunch is that different filtration pulls out different nasty's , cyano, caulerpa and hair algae on the ATS and some carbon are all doing their job.

I've also kept the temperature within half a degree C, good or bad ?

My plans next are to add some high CRI yuji LEDs, im very curious about their full spectrum claim. Best way is to test.

Webmanny · 07/10/2015, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie lyons

Ah you're not serious I assume in your last statement are you ?
Try again,where does all that fine air/water crashing through rocks and finally onto the shore line do? Isn't that what a protein skimmer does with an venture or pinwheel ?

I am very serious. Have you seen anyone at every beach collecting all that stuff and throwing it away? I haven't. I can only imagine that when high tide comes along or when it rains, all that stuff goes right back into the ocean.

I'm no doctor or anything, but I am pretty sure that the way Jestronix is doing things, is the same way mother nature does it. Create certain areas where it is more favorable for algae to grow and keep other areas without algae.

Does that help?

dillct · 07/10/2015, 06:15 AM

The dustpan ATS is the coolest thing I've seen all year! Did you have to rough it up with some sandpaper to get the algae sticking? Might try some of that knitting screen material others use with the vertical scrubbers. I hear paint trays work well too.

Webmanny · 07/10/2015, 08:58 AM

Jestronix,

I just notice your "Ghetto" ATS. I love it, but man that is Ghetto... LOL

jestronix · 07/10/2015, 09:28 AM

It's all ghetto this year, all denial and error as Ricky says

paint tray now your thinking. I used a fork to rough up the ATS , had no sand paper on hand.

Devaji108 · 07/10/2015, 10:20 AM

HA Love the dust pan ATS! pretty much you can use anything for an ATS... along as there is light flow and air and its ruffed up algae will grow.

there is a forum/ website all about scrubbers might want to share your tank there. just an idea it's not near as busy as RC .

anyway beautiful tank!!

06/18/2015, 06:56 AM	#28
Webmanny Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: 33612 Posts: 2,461	__________________ 32 gallon Biocube, DIY LEDs and Triton Method. My N=1 study of me, validated by me, and supported by completely anecdotal evidence, states that my advice is 100% correct, most of the time.

06/18/2015, 03:59 PM	#29
infusionluke Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Holly MI Posts: 38	Looks great! Love the display fuge! __________________ 220 Mixed Reef, 29 window display, 35 frag tank, 75 sump, ATS, DIY Heavy!

07/10/2015, 08:58 AM	#48
Webmanny Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: 33612 Posts: 2,461	Jestronix, I just notice your "Ghetto" ATS. I love it, but man that is Ghetto... LOL __________________ 32 gallon Biocube, DIY LEDs and Triton Method. My N=1 study of me, validated by me, and supported by completely anecdotal evidence, states that my advice is 100% correct, most of the time.

06/17/2015, 07:12 AM	#26
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	I mean, that's why I got rid of my algae/fuge, because I could never get any nitrate or phosphate readings after initial cycle. You could do more fishes, because it will mean more inputs --> more gross nutrient count and you'll either increase nitrate, ammonia, and phosphate levels, but eventually the fuge will catch up again. Or your tank will crash and you'll get a nutrient explosion. That's my biggest concern with the idea of more gross nutrient addition (gross would be increased inputs, with the intent that net nutrients stays the same, i.e. output [fuge/skimmer] keeps pace with inputs) is that if there are any hitches on the output side, you're screwed, and will have severe issues, like algae in the display, bleaching/coral death, etc. If you stay low nutrient, and have any output issues, your nutrients will rise slowly because ideally you've kept your inputs lean. It's a tough balance.

06/18/2015, 03:46 AM	#27
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	So we are using the most effective filter there is, too effective ? With a bit of GAC we have some seriously clean water, we can feed heavy, our fish can get fat, it's like a dream come true. But your right we don't have any insurance for any sudden increases and to get to a sweet spot u sit on a knifes edge. I can't get a reading but my SPS and LPS are happy for now. Mike paletta runs a tank with just a few hours a day, I suspect he avoids taking too much of the goodies out. Quick vid of how the tank is progressing. http://youtu.be/OCDxtcbYMLM

06/19/2015, 03:03 AM	#30
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	Thanks guys always nice to get some encouragement

06/27/2015, 06:18 AM	#31
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	Time for some close ups . And my filter And my really crude scrubber

06/27/2015, 06:24 AM	#32
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	I've noticed in the fuge, my cyano will grow so thick that eventually it will peal off the glass and rise to the surface where I let it grow into a thicker mat, then scoop out each week. Everything is super happy with the absence of a skimmer, also for my return u can see sitting on the side of the fuge is a little CPU pump, this is all I use for my return. I believe this is allowing fish poop etc in the DT to stay in contact with coral longer. However I'm still seeing about 20 times turn over a day.

07/01/2015, 02:47 AM	#33
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	Anyone up for roots ?

07/01/2015, 02:41 PM	#34
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	Do you have any substrate down there for the roots? I'm not sure how long you've used caulerpa, or how familiar you are with it, but make sure to keep it well pruned as it can go sexual and have a complete meltdown (i.e. release all of it's nutrients at once) if not pruned regularly. That's why chaeto is so much more popular these days instead of caulerpa. Also, as ghetto as your scrubber is, your light reflector is equally as ghetto

07/09/2015, 06:34 AM	#36
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	Harvest time, green cyano goodness , scooped out a nice bowl of this. Tanks humming along, growth and colour.

07/09/2015, 09:49 AM	#37
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	Eiew to the cyano, nice to the FTS! Lookin good! I'm still using my nano skimmer, but got rid of my fuge. Got a Hanna checker, and registering around 0.055ppm. I bet it was lower with a fuge, but I can't argue with my growth and colors. Once you start dumping the 2 part in there consistently, growth and color just take off!

07/09/2015, 04:52 PM	#43
Devaji108 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Jackson Hole Wy Posts: 3,430	wow beautiful tank! looks amazing!!! I am also setting up a skimmer less system! be using an upflow ATS but also have 2 feet of the 40br sump that i was thinking of macros but thought my ATS would out compete them...guess we will see. I always thought you have to have sand to grow it. is that species fern?

07/10/2015, 01:30 AM	#44
DMChris Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 3	@jestronix - Very awesome tank! I too have gone skimmerless. First off, I am new to this forum; although I am always reading and researching through this wonderful site. I have a 100gal display with a 150gal display refugium and a 50 gal sump. I have kept my skimmer in my sump, but I removed the cup. It is like a volcano that flows out of the skimmer neck. I did this to increase air into the tank. I have an air pump that is providing oxygen, but I believe with my water volume that I needed more air. I am running a small amount of Dr Tims pearls in my GFO reactor. My display refugium has chaeto, grape caulerpa, and some other macro algaes that I was able to get from a friend. I have a few fish in my tanks too. I am also scraping my glass daily due to the build up, but my my level are quite low to non registering with the Hanna test kits. I do believe a skimmer does a system great, but it does not distinguish the good particle and bad particles.

07/10/2015, 04:51 AM	#45
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	thanks guys lots of input. That pax Bellum on JBNY's tank is awesome, and running very little elect do get the job done. My fuge is about 80w of t5 x 24/7. I guess he's running a pump and at least a 40w bulb. Time will tell on how this setup goes, so far it's very cool, I've dialled in the two part and leaving kh at 7.8, and calc around 400. I run a very slow turn over through the sump using a little PC water pump, $15 off eBay, brushless 12v about 500l/h, this makes for a very very quiet tank, plus no skimmer noise. New addition is my dustpan ATS, just for shits and giggles , but it's grown a little algae after a week. I ruffed up the plastic to see what result I would get. I don't bother measuring for phosphate or nitrate anymore, I'm sure it's there to some degree just the saliferts don't register. I'm changing the water every two weeks of about 10% I could get away with less I guess. My question and hunch is that different filtration pulls out different nasty's , cyano, caulerpa and hair algae on the ATS and some carbon are all doing their job. I've also kept the temperature within half a degree C, good or bad ? My plans next are to add some high CRI yuji LEDs, im very curious about their full spectrum claim. Best way is to test.

07/10/2015, 06:15 AM	#47
dillct Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cypress, TX Posts: 112	The dustpan ATS is the coolest thing I've seen all year! Did you have to rough it up with some sandpaper to get the algae sticking? Might try some of that knitting screen material others use with the vertical scrubbers. I hear paint trays work well too.

07/10/2015, 09:28 AM	#49
jestronix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 451	It's all ghetto this year, all denial and error as Ricky says paint tray now your thinking. I used a fork to rough up the ATS , had no sand paper on hand.

07/10/2015, 10:20 AM	#50
Devaji108 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Jackson Hole Wy Posts: 3,430	HA Love the dust pan ATS! pretty much you can use anything for an ATS... along as there is light flow and air and its ruffed up algae will grow. there is a forum/ website all about scrubbers might want to share your tank there. just an idea it's not near as busy as RC . anyway beautiful tank!!