Light fixture hung in ceiling fell in tank

[CrypticLifeStyl]

I've used thousands of toggles to hold up epic e-care ergonomic computer stations, and wall stations throughout Mass General Hospital, and they put up with a lot of abuse, and not one has ever come out. If the drywall is in good condition, they will hold. 5/8" & 1/2" are the 2 i've used for all installations~>

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by CrypticLifeStyl

I've used thousands of toggles to hold up epic e-care ergonomic computer stations, and wall stations throughout Mass General Hospital, and they put up with a lot of abuse, and not one has ever come out. If the drywall is in good condition, they will hold. 5/8" & 1/2" are the 2 i've used for all installations~>

Yup if the drywall is good there great, keep in mind there is a huge difference between hanging from a wall and ceiling however.

[rgulrich]

The big challenge is that it's not really a drywall/plasterboard/sheet-rock we're dealing with in this thread, it is a lath and plaster ceiling. If the lath flexes at all, the plaster separates and cracks or worse, drops.

I really wish there was an easy way of finding the joists beyond what I've suggested above, but the only other ways I've found in reading up on these ceilings are along the lines of "find the blueprints" (not always too easy with older homes...or newer ones for that matter). Another suggested measuring out the joist centers (16 inch is more common than 24 inch, but it depends on who built the house and when) starting at an outside wall - test drill at 16 and see if you hit one, then again at 24 if the first didn't pay off. The last suggestion I dug up off an old lath and plaster ceiling thread (please don't ask me why I was there...sigh) from Zircon:

"We want to give the explanation for why Zircon stud finders are not well suited for lath and plaster applications.

Zircon (and all) stud finders measure "density" or "capacitance" behind a wall, floor or ceiling. For them to function correctly, they need to move from a point of lower density to one of higher density. You can think of it as going from a place that is more hollow to a place that is less hollow. Stud finders don't work well in lath and plaster for that exact reason -- because there are multiple pieces of wood (lath), coupled with the fact that plaster inconsistently leaks through the laths to create varying depths (or densities). So, because of the constantly varying depths, the stud finder is constantly trying to recalibrate, and therefore will not find the studs.

They do work in concrete, by the way, because the material is of a more consistent density than lath and plaster.

This is NOT something that is particular to Zircon stud finders, however. Any manufacturer's product will produce the same results. And we do try to alert users to this in the operating instructions.

There is a work-around. If you turn the TriScanner on "Metal" scan, you can locate nails behind your wall. By locating a vertical row of nails, you have a pretty good, although not certain, idea that you've found a stud. Then switch back to "Stud" scan to verify. As I said, this isn't foolproof, but many owners of lath and plaster walls have found it effective.

Dan Harrell, Director of Marketing, Zircon Corporation"

This might work in your situation, but I don't envy your sore neck by the time you're done.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by rgulrich

The big challenge is that it's not really a drywall/plasterboard/sheet-rock we're dealing with in this thread, it is a lath and plaster ceiling. If the lath flexes at all, the plaster separates and cracks or worse, drops.

I really wish there was an easy way of finding the joists beyond what I've suggested above, but the only other ways I've found in reading up on these ceilings are along the lines of "find the blueprints" (not always too easy with older homes...or newer ones for that matter). Another suggested measuring out the joist centers (16 inch is more common than 24 inch, but it depends on who built the house and when) starting at an outside wall - test drill at 16 and see if you hit one, then again at 24 if the first didn't pay off. The last suggestion I dug up off an old lath and plaster ceiling thread (please don't ask me why I was there...sigh) from Zircon:

"We want to give the explanation for why Zircon stud finders are not well suited for lath and plaster applications.

Zircon (and all) stud finders measure "density" or "capacitance" behind a wall, floor or ceiling. For them to function correctly, they need to move from a point of lower density to one of higher density. You can think of it as going from a place that is more hollow to a place that is less hollow. Stud finders don't work well in lath and plaster for that exact reason -- because there are multiple pieces of wood (lath), coupled with the fact that plaster inconsistently leaks through the laths to create varying depths (or densities). So, because of the constantly varying depths, the stud finder is constantly trying to recalibrate, and therefore will not find the studs.

They do work in concrete, by the way, because the material is of a more consistent density than lath and plaster.

This is NOT something that is particular to Zircon stud finders, however. Any manufacturer's product will produce the same results. And we do try to alert users to this in the operating instructions.

There is a work-around. If you turn the TriScanner on "Metal" scan, you can locate nails behind your wall. By locating a vertical row of nails, you have a pretty good, although not certain, idea that you've found a stud. Then switch back to "Stud" scan to verify. As I said, this isn't foolproof, but many owners of lath and plaster walls have found it effective.

Dan Harrell, Director of Marketing, Zircon Corporation"

This might work in your situation, but I don't envy your sore neck by the time you're done.

Thanks for the analysis man I really appreciate it. My findings were similar. I have researched a lot as well and the key to success it seams is finding the nails where the lathe is attached to the joists/studs. I have a zircon stud finder(not the trimetal one but a powerful one) with normal mode and deep sense but neither modes were effective in finding consistent results which made me uncomfortable moving forward.

One other strategy I read about is using strong neodymium magnets to locate the nails through the plaster. I tried it on the wall with some extra tunze ATO magnets i had and was able to find spots 16 inches apart however it was weird in that it wasn't consistent vertically. E.g. I would find 3 studs 16 inches apart and the magnets would all stick to those locations, but then I would move all magnets straight up a few inches to a few feet and they wouldn't stick. I believe it was because my magnets weren't strong enough to detect the nails through all depths of the plaster except the thinnest spots.

I plan on buying stronger neodymium magnets as well as exchanging my scanner for the Trimetal version and giving them ago. Eventually I may just tear my wall down haha, very frustrating.

[BigJohnny]

Anyone know what size/style # of wood screws I should use with the hanging kit? It only came with toggles

[homer1475]

To be honest with you, I lived in an old house that had lathe and plaster for walls and ceilings, and hung many things from them. The trick was to get into the lathe and not between it. If you put a screw between the lathe, you knock the "key" out of the plaster and it tends to crumble apart.

I honestly think that lathe and plaster is stronger then wallboard. Paper and gypsum Vs. thin wood and laid on plaster. I would think the lathe alone would be stronger then dried out gypsum and paper.

Just my .02$.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by homer1475

To be honest with you, I lived in an old house that had lathe and plaster for walls and ceilings, and hung many things from them. The trick was to get into the lathe and not between it. If you put a screw between the lathe, you knock the "key" out of the plaster and it tends to crumble apart.

I honestly think that lathe and plaster is stronger then wallboard. Paper and gypsum Vs. thin wood and laid on plaster. I would think the lathe alone would be stronger then dried out gypsum and paper.

Just my .02$.

I'm comfortable with neither, used oak board screwed into joists and installed light fixture into that. Used zircon metallicanner m40 to find the screws that attached lathes into the joists.

[JB NY]

Originally Posted by moondoggy4

http://www.amazon.com/TOGGLER-SNAPTO...16+toggle+bolt I have used these and I purchased them from Lowes they all different sizes.

These work perfectly well. I have a 60lb giesemann pendant hanging from the sheetrock for over 7 years with zero problems. I also had installers use these fasteners when putting in hanging shelving in another room. The shelves themselves weighed over 150lb a piece and where hung directly on the sheetrock not the studs, the shelves are filled with books now for the past 10 years so that is probably another 100lb at least. Those fasteners work!

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by JB NY

These work perfectly well. I have a 60lb giesemann pendant hanging from the sheetrock for over 7 years with zero

I also had installers use these fasteners when putting in hanging shelving in another room. The shelves themselves weighed over 150lb a piece and where hung directly on the sheetrock not the studs, the shelves are filled with books now for the past 10 years so that is probably another 100lb at least. Those fasteners work!

That's cool, it definitely can work if done properly on drywall/sheetrock in good condition, but I've heard plenty of stories from the other side where the drywall caves in because the owner didn't know it was in bad shape. I personally just wouldn't trust a toggle bolt to suspend a $600+ light fixture over a tank filled with water and living creatures, on hardwood floors.

You also can't compare using the fasteners on a vertical wall vs the ceiling. It's entirely different and they are actually designed for the wall not the ceiling. Definitely don't try 150 lbs from the ceiling with the same ones!

[805reef]

I used a plumb bob to mark where I needed the holes in my ceiling. Then drilled a hole through. Went into the attic and inserted 2x4's between the joists where the holes were. Then I screwed my fixture hanging kit into those 2x4's.