Tampa Bay Saltwater Live Rock 2.1 And Pests

[KingTriton1]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

My feelings on bio diversity are it keeps everything in balance. In the wild everything eats everything. Every life form is kept in check. With our tanks we don't have that luxury. If left unchecked something in your tank would dominate and eliminate most or all of what's in it

My concern would be that most of that bio diversity will soon become eliminated anyway. Once it becomes eliminated then the only way to repopulate is to add more live rock right? The problem I see with this is if you have a lot of corals glued on to the rock. Also, having to rescape the live rock to make it work all over again. So big picture here, many people like live rock because they want to replicate the wild as much as possible, but as for benefits it's really just a quicker cycling? I will say live rock will work better for removing nitrates compared to dry, but this may be a mute point once you start covering the rocks with corals (given you like all your rock covered like me), which actually could actually be a bad thing I would assume.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by KingTriton1

My concern would be that most of that bio diversity will soon become eliminated anyway. Once it becomes eliminated then the only way to repopulate is to add more live rock right? The problem I see with this is if you have a lot of corals glued on to the rock. Also, having to rescape the live rock to make it work all over again. So big picture here, many people like live rock because they want to replicate the wild as much as possible, but as for benefits it's really just a quicker cycling? I will say live rock will work better for removing nitrates compared to dry, but this may be a mute point once you start covering the rocks with corals (given you like all you rock covered like me), which actually could give you problems I would assume.

Have you thought about all the biodiversity you CAN'T see?
Everything that contributes to a functioning, stable, self-contained ecosystem?
Who is to say this is all eliminated?

After 5 years, your tank and my tank might not look all the much different.
But I can tell you which one of us probably had the easier go of it in the beginning and maybe had the more stable, thriving, problem free tank over the years... or the better chance at it anyway. At least that's been my experience. Obviously I can't speak for others.

Another way to look at it...
Let's say you had the most perfect functioning, mature, most healthy saltwater reef tank you've ever seen. Then you sell your house, and have to move the tank. Would you want to start all over with dry rock and sand and have to go through all that again, and have to wait years to get back to where you were, with no guarantee you ever would, or would you rather just transfer the old tank to the new house over the course of a day? With the second option you know you might have some slight setback, but you know you'd be wayyyyy ahead vs the first option.
Starting a tank with TBS rock is much closer to option number 2.

[anbosu]

I still have a lot of the same life I got on my rock from Richard three or four years ago. Some of it will die off eventually, of course, but most of it survived, at least for me.

[KingTriton1]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Have you thought about all the biodiversity you CAN'T see?
Everything that contributes to a functioning, stable, self-contained ecosystem?
Who is to say this is all eliminated?

I do agree with you on this. As I was really just assuming that the most dominate species would survive, at least in the long run. I don't think you nor I really know the answer to this one.

I can tell you which one of us probably had the easier go of it in the beginning and maybe had the more stable, thriving, problem free tank over the years...

This is definitely possible, but it could very well be the other way around. This is assuming that the live rock didn't come with any issues on it.

I really do like live rock. My wife use to think I was crazy because Id pull up a chair and just stare at the rock for hours without any fish or coral in it . I just don't consider it a staple for reef keeping and think people should always include any potential concerns before making their decision. Having said that I would monitor the rock in a separate bin before placing the rock into an existing aquarium IMO. I had purchased only 20lbs of live rock and had to manually remove 2 mantis and 2 pistols because of the all the noise they were making. Honestly, you wouldn't even believe how much noise came out of that 20g tank. I also had to remove all the rock because of bubble algae.

[KingTriton1]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Let's say you had the most perfect functioning, mature, most healthy saltwater reef tank you've ever seen. Then you sell your house, and have to move the tank. Would you want to start all over with dry rock and sand and have to go through all that again

I actually have a prevention for this. I have my sump with a filter sock and filter floss before my rubble TBS live rock (5lbs?) seeding over my Matrix Pond. If I were to ever move I would just simply transfer my Matrix. (I only use TBS live rock rubble because of its nitrate reduction capabilities and faster cycling. This will help reduce the risk of having pest imo). I like having the TBS seeding the Matrix because the matrix will fully allow the bacteria to continue its existence (meaning it will not have coralline algae or glued corals covering up the hole in which bacteria thrive in).



Basically once the Matrix has been seeded I will probably remove the rock or place it in the main tank as it has served its purpose in my particular situation.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php

"Growth of coralline algae over the rock's surface will close off most of the small channels and passageways, largely contributing to the decline of the rock's biological filtration capacity. Hobbyists may further contribute to this degradation of filtering capacity by gluing coral fragments to the rock's surface, thus sealing off more of the pores. This may make the inside of the rock anoxic and, if there is much organic material inside the rock, it will start to rot. If the interior of the rock is subsequently exposed to the tank environment, such material could be deleterious.

Some of the larger openings into the rock will remain. In some cases, these will become occupied by larger worms. The movement of these larger worms can help facilitate biological filtration in the rock, but they cannot maintain it anywhere nearly as efficiently as could the large populations of small worms that had been previously living in the rock."

[liverock]

And here is the rock!








Lots of nooks and holes for your critters to enjoy!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

[JoeyBagadonuts]

That's some good looking live rock! Living here in Tarpon Springs I have no excuse for not getting some from you.

[igadget56]

Originally Posted by KingTriton1

I actually have a prevention for this. I have my sump with a filter sock and filter floss before my rubble TBS live rock (5lbs?) seeding over my Matrix Pond. If I were to ever move I would just simply transfer my Matrix. (I only use TBS live rock rubble because of its nitrate reduction capabilities and faster cycling. This will help reduce the risk of having pest imo). I like having the TBS seeding the Matrix because the matrix will fully allow the bacteria to continue its existence (meaning it will not have coralline algae or glued corals covering up the hole in which bacteria thrive in).



Basically once the Matrix has been seeded I will probably remove the rock or place it in the main tank as it has served its purpose in my particular situation.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php

"Growth of coralline algae over the rock's surface will close off most of the small channels and passageways, largely contributing to the decline of the rock's biological filtration capacity. Hobbyists may further contribute to this degradation of filtering capacity by gluing coral fragments to the rock's surface, thus sealing off more of the pores. This may make the inside of the rock anoxic and, if there is much organic material inside the rock, it will start to rot. If the interior of the rock is subsequently exposed to the tank environment, such material could be deleterious.

Some of the larger openings into the rock will remain. In some cases, these will become occupied by larger worms. The movement of these larger worms can help facilitate biological filtration in the rock, but they cannot maintain it anywhere nearly as efficiently as could the large populations of small worms that had been previously living in the rock."

I don't think this is correct. Where did you get your information from?

[KingTriton1]

Originally Posted by igadget56

I don't think this is correct. Where did you get your information from?

The information is from the link above.

With that said, I love the live rock from TBS. I'm about to place an order with TBS for some more live rock on another tank and wouldn't purchase live rock from any other source.I just think people should be aware that whenever they close off a lot of holes on your live rock you are essentially killing off a lot of your anaerobic bacteria which helps reduce nitrates and it can cause all the organic matter that was inside the live rock to rot within. This is why if I choose to glue the entire rock with frags I go with dry rock bc live rock won't offer any additional benefit to dry without its internal bacteria deep inside the rock and can even be less appealing because of the rot.

[hart24601]

I know there are a few members of RC that love this rock, and that's awesome, looks like great live rock. I used dry rock (ceramic) and have been very happy with it. I would probably still use dry rock setting up a new tank - i don't think ocean rock would have made my current system better. But live rock is fun to watch the good and bad critters. You can have a nice tank either way, just something to remember. It can be overwhelming when a few well respected members are really into something and don't just recommend it, but defend it. Awesome they love it, but it's not the only option and the best option for someone isn't always the same.

[laga77]

I started a 120g mixed reef back in the first of Sept. I cycled the tank using 80-100 pounds of dry rock and bottled ammonia. After two weeks I added the 25# "package" from TBS. Result were great and I have a beautiful tank. There was 1 Mantis Shrimp and 1 Rock Crab in the rock. Along with a bunch of "good" critters. Both were easy to catch. There is so much surface area on the rough irregular shaped rocks that any growth on the surface on the rock will be a non-issue as far as sealing off any opening, especially if you have any substrate at all in the tank.

[AugustWest]

Originally Posted by laga77

I started a 120g mixed reef back in the first of Sept. I cycled the tank using 80-100 pounds of dry rock and bottled ammonia. After two weeks I added the 25# "package" from TBS. Result were great and I have a beautiful tank. There was 1 Mantis Shrimp and 1 Rock Crab in the rock. Along with a bunch of "good" critters. Both were easy to catch. There is so much surface area on the rough irregular shaped rocks that any growth on the surface on the rock will be a non-issue as far as sealing off any opening, especially if you have any substrate at all in the tank.

Easy to catch the Mantis and Rock Crab? Please share your method.

[liverock]

Originally Posted by AugustWest

Easy to catch the Mantis and Rock Crab? Please share your method.

Piece of cake....crabs...just reach and and grab.....when you see one...or a piece of raw shrimp up by the glass....when they come for it ...viola..

Mantis...also easy...they always have a hole they live in on one of the rocks, identify that...pull that rock...and get him....or let him be, as they are really cool animals and this type are not real bad guys that some species are...and are great sand stirres.

Folks are so hyped out by by hitchhikers....not a big isssue considering what you get in the long run...a beautiful live reef tank like this one

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70862

and all in one weeks time!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

[AirForceAquariu]

I have had my TBS rock and critters for 9.5 months now. I'd say about half of the "chicken liver" sponges have vanished and the rest are out of sight under arches and in caves. I still have a mantis or pistol shrimp I hear but it has never bothered anything so I haven't hunted it to hard yet. I have a plethora of barnacles and fan worms as well as sphagetti worms 3 longspine urchins (hatched out of the rock) 2 porcelain crabs (also from the rock) and a tree sponge and gorgonian that Richard sent along that have all provided great diversity. There are a ton of non-decorative clams that I attribute some of my water clarity and low nitrates to as well. My tank is not sterile but has great growth of all kinds of cool stuff. Benefits far outweigh the risks!

Thanks Richard! I will definitely be back next time!

[Hitch08]

Originally Posted by laga77

I started a 120g mixed reef back in the first of Sept. I cycled the tank using 80-100 pounds of dry rock and bottled ammonia. After two weeks I added the 25# "package" from TBS. Result were great and I have a beautiful tank. There was 1 Mantis Shrimp and 1 Rock Crab in the rock. Along with a bunch of "good" critters. Both were easy to catch. There is so much surface area on the rough irregular shaped rocks that any growth on the surface on the rock will be a non-issue as far as sealing off any opening, especially if you have any substrate at all in the tank.

I'm on the same path re the 120 gallon tank, but behind you by a few months. I cycled about 100 pounds of rock, largely with bottled ammonia. In the next week or so, I plan to order a "package" around that size. I can't wait to see the life that will be added to the tank.

[jimbob321]

we do have Aiptasia in fla. i have seen them..

Geographic Range
Aiptasia pallida is found on the southern United States Atlantic and Gulf coasts from North Carolina to Texas, as well as in the coastal Caribbean. (Colin, 1978)

http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Aiptasia_pallida/

[liverock]

Originally Posted by jimbob321

we do have Aiptasia in fla. i have seen them..

Geographic Range
Aiptasia pallida is found on the southern United States Atlantic and Gulf coasts from North Carolina to Texas, as well as in the coastal Caribbean. (Colin, 1978)

http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Aiptasia_pallida/

Yes it sure is...but it is not the invasive type aptasia that plagues your reef tanks, as they are from the indo-pacific.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

[sctip]

My next tank I am using this setup from Tampa bay Saltwater...Sounds like such an experience

[MadReefist]

Etc source live rock totally covered in coralline (but essentially nothing else) vs. FL aquacultured rock loaded with 'endless' mysterious little creepy crawlies (both stationary and mobile), along with sponges, plants and so much more (things you can see)... there's simply no comparison! With all that, the microbeastie content has to be just as stellar.

[sde1500]

Just seeing the pictures of this rock is amazing. I really think it seems the worry of a few hitchhikers seems so far overblown. Especially when you compare to how many good hitchhikers come in. If you start your tank with just live sand and dry rock, where will most of the life come from. From what I saw, my sand when I started my tank didn't really have much life. I used live rock from my LFS, so got some hitchikers on it, including some bristle worms and such, where would the worms come from with dead rock?

[KingTriton1]

Originally Posted by sde1500

I used live rock from my LFS, so got some hitchikers on it, including some bristle worms and such, where would the worms come from with dead rock?

Why do you want worms?

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by KingTriton1

Why do you want worms?

Because they do well cleaning the tank of course.

[KingTriton1]

To be honest I highly doubt you will be able to tell any difference with or without them. That said they couldn't hurt. Filter sock, protein skimming shrimp, pods, and nassarius snail are much better performers for this IMO.

[BrandonFlorida]

Richard said he was diving today, and my order went in yesterday, and I cant wait! Heck if I didn't work all week id probably take a drive to tampa haha

I have all dead rock when I started and miss all those little guys that I had in the old tank. My tank is starving for life!

[nathan1986]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Also it's important to note Gulf waters off Tampa Bay don't have the same pests that are detrimental to common Indo Pacific corals we commonly buy or trade. There's no red bugs, aefw, monti nudis, aiptasia, etc. I would be more concerned with the pests you get from buying corals. A few crabs and mantis shrimp are nothing compared to an aefw invasion.

No aptasia but i got 3 huge manjos on some TBS rock i purchased 3 years ago. The same 3 manjos are still on the rock. they havent multiplied, but they have moved around a bit.