no water changes anyone? - Page 2

Green Chromis · 10/27/2015, 04:40 AM

Hi Casey, you may get away with a beautiful tank for a few years, but I would ask Mother Nature why she does constant water changes? These water changes have been going on for billions of years. Can't fool mother nature.

mhucasey · 10/27/2015, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

Hi Casey, you may get away with a beautiful tank for a few years, but I would ask Mother Nature why she does constant water changes? These water changes have been going on for billions of years. Can't fool mother nature.

Glenf has been "getting away with it" for about a decade now, and his reef is one of the best in the world. If you like water changes be my guest. I can tell you from experience that regular water changes are not necessary, one of the very successful reef keeping methods out there, the Triton method, does not require them except to correct an error such as accidental poisoning or overdose.

Dugless · 10/27/2015, 09:00 AM

No matter how much one tries to dodge it, it can't be ignored that a consistent water change schedule is the most obvious commonality shared by successful reef tanks. It doesn't take long to realize the most experienced reefers push this as the staple of success. Not only are they helpful in removing waste and nutrients, they are even more valuable by replacing elements coral rely on to thrive.

I find the schedule just as important as the water change itself. Diligence in changing a consistent volume with a reliable timeframe ensures stability. Stability, in my mind, is the number one absolute in keeping coral. Water changes are the simplest and easiest way to keep tank parameters stable. Why would one want to dose a bottle of this and that to try and keep parameters dialed in? There are many elements that go untested which can be easily stabilized by a routine water change schedule. The deficit of such might take time to show itself, but it will.

I liken water changes to changing the oil in an engine. If you stop doing them the car will continue to run. No one would argue that the instant you go past the recommended mileage the car will break down. In fact, it might continue for many thousands of miles. But how long down the road before things goes terribly wrong?

There are many methods and practices out there in hopes of removing organics and waste within a reef aquarium. Many of which do a very good job. Skimmers, algae, live rock, etc. But no matter how well these items perform, they will never be able to keep up in removing the amount of organics we introduce into the tank by feeding our fish. Skimmers will never remove enough organics on their own. Algae cannot remove particulates before they begin to break down. And the life within our rock and sand can only go so far in consuming these organics. These dissolved organics have to go somewhere, they are never processed to the point of complete elimination.

Yes, there are exceptions. You can employ different tasks like siphoning your waste into a filter sock and dosing different items into the tank, but I can't help but ask myself why complicate something that can be so very basic, simple and beneficial as a water change?

The only reasons I can think of are time and money. Unfortunately I can't ever imagine a reef aquarium that is set and forget. If this is a goal, I expect there might be some struggles. Even the tasks we automate in order to simplify the work involved require weekly or monthly prep or intervention. Nothing will take care of itself indefinitely.

As far as cost, salt is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. I've always thought it a wise decision to pay $45 for a box of salt in order to keep the many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of fish and coral healthy within a reef tank. These are living things and it is only wise to act responsibly when entrusted with their care.

For every tank that is successful without performing water changes, I would wager that there are easily many more with proven success by utilizing them.

Tweaked · 10/27/2015, 09:23 AM

Had a couple die hard buddies in the hobby for almost a decade get back to water changes after thinking it was not needed. A huge crash later and they can't believe the colors and health they see now with scheduled water changes. I'm not saying everyone will crash, just sharing their experiences.

jason2459 · 10/27/2015, 09:35 AM

Do them or don't. Just understand if you don't there's work still to be done in testing, dosing, and making sure export methods of some kind are in place.

Glenf is a good example of someone that has successfully gone (so far) with out traditional periodic water changes. Sure there's the removal of things like frags and algae and filters etc that removes some water that needs added back in but I would not count that as a maintanence partial water change. Glenf has a website describing his method and the work that he's put into maintaining his system.

PaulB is a great example of a very long running reef system that does do water changes but not on any normal frequent schedule. His thread and new book he wrote that's out now shows his methods of waste removal.

Then look at just about every reef of the month and will show that doing frequent partial water changes can be done as well.

So, I guess my point is make sure you know what you're getting into. I see no reason at all not to do periodic water changes at some kind of interval. Don't like hauling buckets? There's many ways to setup pumps/plumbing/tubing/etc to make it very easy or even completely automated.

Doing water changes is a very easy (and can be cheap if you don't buy super expensive brands) way to help export unwanted nutrients and import back in necessary elements that were depleted.

Some systems that's all that's needed. That's all I do for my small 20 gallon softy tank. No other filtration. Just 4gallon water changes each week. On my 180 mixed reef I setup daily automatic water changes of around 1% of the system volume. However it's not enough but sure does enough I just add some Mg to my salt mix once and dose lime water in my ATO. Couldn't be easier.

Problem I see with the camp of never do water changes is that they have to test regularly and dose often. But there's no way everything that is bad can be tested for and no way everything that is needed can be tested for. At least not at a price we would want. There also is not much in the way of saving money on salt as it probably costs more to go that route on test kits, reagents, and individual elements to be dosed then what I spend. However, if conservation is the agenda then I can fully appreciate that especially in drought stricken areas.

Green Chromis · 10/27/2015, 09:56 AM

Dugless, very good post, I wonder what the cost and time difference is for adding all those different chemicals and monitoring them as compared to water changes. Another thing can you add all the elements to a tank like you would do with a water change, especially a water change using NSW.

garygonzales · 10/27/2015, 10:01 AM

but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

jason2459 · 10/27/2015, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garygonzales

but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

Evaporation doesn't export anything at any kind of effective level.

splix · 10/27/2015, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garygonzales

but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

lol, i was thinking the same thing when I was pouring in my top off water today. I'm running GFO and carbon, as well as a skimmer and a refug. I plan on doing 10-20% water changes every couple months.

CStrickland · 10/27/2015, 11:19 AM

There are a lot of threads about this, the one in the advanced section has some good info.
One issue with not changing water is that problems like rocks becoming saturated with phosphate or trace elements building up or depleting can take a long time to show up. So people think they have figured something out when they don't have algae for 7 months, and then at 18 months the tank crashes. Success in reefing is not less than a year for anything, when it comes to nutrient export I want to see at least 5 years and longer is better.

There are tanks that have been successful without water changes, GlennF's is a good example of a sustainable long-term no waterchange regimen. I would do that if I lived in a drought place for ethical reasons, but I don't think it is easier. As with most things, the shortcut is a lot of work. Anybody that acts like they can add a few drops of this or that and have a no water change tank is kidding themself. We are talking about testing and maintaining at minimum: Ca,KH,Mg,Sr,K, and B, as well as tweaking NaCl. Assuming one is planning to run the tank for a long time, a great many reefers quit before they hit 10 years.

BTW PaulB does regularly scheduled deep cleaning, he calls it a typhoon or hurricane or supermodel cyclone or something. It involves a diatom filter. I think he's also got a giant skimmer, algae trough, RUGF, and dinitrator. Still he does occasionally dump in some new sea water I think.

mhucasey · 10/27/2015, 11:38 AM

There are many misconceptions on this thread, and its doubtful that anyone firmly in either camp will change their mind. But to address the misconceptions:

1) Water change or no, nutrient export must be performed, dirt must be removed, etc. Just because I don't throw away water that is perfectly fine doesn't mean I don't remove a lot of crud via skimmer and the occasional siphoning into a filter sock.
2) I don't do very much testing, I have found that with a well designed system the levels stay pretty constant. I haven't had measurable Phosphate in over a year and a half. My nitrate is intentionally kept at 2-5ppm. The most testing I do is for KH because the demand changes as the coral growth accelerates. I would do this much testing if I was changing water - maybe more as water changes mess with the stable KH.
3) I don't add all that much outside the calcium and alkalinity 2-part solutions- 4 drops lugols per day, 5Ml each of two Fauna Marin color elements supplements per week, 8 drops iron citrate per week, and a ml of sponge supplement twice a week. I add Magnesium every month or so to keep the level above 1400. If I was changing water I would be dosing these items as well.
4) Water changes have no effect on sequestration of Phosphate in rock, unless you have a high phosphate problem. This happens when the phosphate levels are high - binding then occurs to aragonite. When phosphate levels are reduced in the water to lower levels, the aragonite exchanges phosphate back to the water. If you maintain low phosphate levels, no binding to substrate will occur.
5) The salt I lose from the skimmate is replaced by the uptake of the 2-part solutions. Residual Na and Cl from these keeps the salinity of the system pretty stable. these have to be dosed in equal amounts or you will have an ionic imbalance eventually and will need a water change.

Dugless · 10/27/2015, 12:27 PM

Unless a skimmer or filter sock is capable of removing in it's entirety the amount of organics introduced daily, the tank can only trend towards decline. Even if the offset is minimal, it still adds up to a losing battle. There isn't a math formula out there that can prove the opposite. Even as waste gets broken down by the different biological activities, it still remains in the aquarium. It is a closed system. There is no magic to it. The only way to remove it completely, is to take water out and replace it.

Perhaps the misconception lies in the stubborn denial that water changes are useful. Or that water becoming devoid of trace elements and getting saturated with dissolved organics is perfectly fine.

Johnb123 · 10/27/2015, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugless

No matter how much one tries to dodge it, it can't be ignored that a consistent water change schedule is the most obvious commonality shared by successful reef tanks. It doesn't take long to realize the most experienced reefers push this as the staple of success. Not only are they helpful in removing waste and nutrients, they are even more valuable by replacing elements coral rely on to thrive.

I find the schedule just as important as the water change itself. Diligence in changing a consistent volume with a reliable timeframe ensures stability. Stability, in my mind, is the number one absolute in keeping coral. Water changes are the simplest and easiest way to keep tank parameters stable. Why would one want to dose a bottle of this and that to try and keep parameters dialed in? There are many elements that go untested which can be easily stabilized by a routine water change schedule. The deficit of such might take time to show itself, but it will.

I liken water changes to changing the oil in an engine. If you stop doing them the car will continue to run. No one would argue that the instant you go past the recommended mileage the car will break down. In fact, it might continue for many thousands of miles. But how long down the road before things goes terribly wrong?

There are many methods and practices out there in hopes of removing organics and waste within a reef aquarium. Many of which do a very good job. Skimmers, algae, live rock, etc. But no matter how well these items perform, they will never be able to keep up in removing the amount of organics we introduce into the tank by feeding our fish. Skimmers will never remove enough organics on their own. Algae cannot remove particulates before they begin to break down. And the life within our rock and sand can only go so far in consuming these organics. These dissolved organics have to go somewhere, they are never processed to the point of complete elimination.

Yes, there are exceptions. You can employ different tasks like siphoning your waste into a filter sock and dosing different items into the tank, but I can't help but ask myself why complicate something that can be so very basic, simple and beneficial as a water change?

The only reasons I can think of are time and money. Unfortunately I can't ever imagine a reef aquarium that is set and forget. If this is a goal, I expect there might be some struggles. Even the tasks we automate in order to simplify the work involved require weekly or monthly prep or intervention. Nothing will take care of itself indefinitely.

As far as cost, salt is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. I've always thought it a wise decision to pay $45 for a box of salt in order to keep the many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of fish and coral healthy within a reef tank. These are living things and it is only wise to act responsibly when entrusted with their care.

For every tank that is successful without performing water changes, I would wager that there are easily many more with proven success by utilizing them.

huge waste of my time lmao! thanks captain obvious

Johnb123 · 10/27/2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

Dugless, very good post, I wonder what the cost and time difference is for adding all those different chemicals and monitoring them as compared to water changes. Another thing can you add all the elements to a tank like you would do with a water change, especially a water change using NSW.

it's not about the cost it's about the challenge and accomplishment

Johnb123 · 10/27/2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhucasey

You put forth a convincing argument for the reefers here who live near the ocean and own a boat

i just died

johnfallon135 · 10/27/2015, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnb123

it's not about the cost it's about the challenge and accomplishment

true I don't know why people always assume money or time

Green Chromis · 10/28/2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnb123

it's not about the cost it's about the challenge and accomplishment

Hi John, I didn't mean to imply the cost was a problem for you or anyone else, it's just that no matter how much time and money you put into this venture, you will never be able to replicate what a water change with NSW will accomplish in a saltwater system. Using NSW not only replenishes all the elements lost, it also adds a biological presence to you system. It has taken billions of years for the oceans to get the formula right so coral reefs, fish and everything else can live in them.

Dugless · 10/28/2015, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnb123

huge waste of my time lmao! thanks captain obvious

I apologize that my response wasn't what you wanted to hear. Forge your own path and continue to challenge yourself with your homemade recipe of dosing this and that. If you are after exhausting more time and money than is necessary, then by all means continue. I can't help but notice responses by users with very recent join dates and wonder where such arrogance comes from? I'll assume it is gleaned from all those years of proven success. Good luck with your reef Mr. Know-it-all.

BlackTip · 10/28/2015, 08:44 AM

A guy without any experience here, so I am looking at this topic with unbiased opinion.

99% of reefers use synthetic sea salt. It is made of salt and other mineral and compounds needed by aquatic life. The main purpose of water change are to replenish the minerals consumed by aquatic life and to export SOME of undesirable stuff. Basically it is an attempt to keep the water in balance. Both tasks can be done by other means. The minerals can be replenished by dosing, and the undesirable stuff can be exported by aggressive filtration. So, what is the big deal?

The contention points are, is it possible to have a filtration good enough, and is there a way to accurately test and replenish the consumed minerals?

Handful of successful cases don't prove the methodology. More time and more successes are needed.

To the inexperienced like myself, it seems a lot easier to change water. One step accomplish both tasks - replenish and export. Also, it is a proven method. For someone who like to tinker with water chemistry and like to do a lot of testing, then no water change is an option.

jason2459 · 10/28/2015, 08:55 AM

My biggest concerns about those things we can't test for or can't easily and affordably test for to know what all needs replenished or if we are properly exporting those things we don't want that can be harmful if built up or slowly being absorbed by our rocks/sand and eventually leached out. To many unknowns that doing a water change can help provide a buffer against. For me it reduces the burden of in-depth testing and dosing. I will fully admit I'm lazy and overall don't test that often. I will get into moods of testing or experimenting but then go very long periods of doing none of that at all. Automating my water changes was one of the best things I've done and ensures it gets done.

One thing against water changes is that occasional bad batch that can throw things off. Or if collecting NSW that strain of a bad virus or bacteria or unknown pollution.

RHF is always a good read
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Green Chromis · 10/28/2015, 09:12 AM

Hi Jason, on using NSW, yes you need to be careful where you collect your water from. I have been using NSW for over 30yrs. in various systems, including my current system for over 20yrs., and have never had a problem with pollutants of other dangerous organisms. I collect all my water form the Gulfstream or Outer Reefs off the Florida Keys, and use it only a few hours after collection. The way I use it would add a lot of undesirables to the system if present, but so far only beneficial plankton and other organisms.

BlackTip · 10/28/2015, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason2459

My biggest concerns about those things we can't test for or can't easily and affordably test for to know what all needs replenished or if we are properly exporting those things we don't want that can be harmful if built up or slowly being absorbed by our rocks/sand and eventually leached out. To many unknowns that doing a water change can help provide a buffer against. For me it reduces the burden of in-depth testing and dosing. I will fully admit I'm lazy and overall don't test that often. I will get into moods of testing or experimenting but then go very long periods of doing none of that at all. Automating my water changes was one of the best things I've done and ensures it gets done.

One thing against water changes is that occasional bad batch that can throw things off. Or if collecting NSW that strain of a bad virus or bacteria or unknown pollution.

RHF is always a good read
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Not long ago many things in this hobby were unknown. People took chance, experiment, and achieved success. The masses like myself follow on their footsteps. Maybe people who are proponent of no water change are into something. Maybe they are discovering and solving another unknown. I believe we should applaud and encourage them instead of putting them down. I am not saying we should encourage everyone as their are lives at risk, but if someone like GlennF want to try and experiment, then we should support him. He obviously knows what he is doing. The guy makes his own salt!

jason2459 · 10/28/2015, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BalckTip

Not long ago many things in this hobby were unknown. People took chance, experiment, and achieved success. The masses like myself follow on their footsteps. Maybe people who are proponent of no water change are into something. Maybe they are discovering and solving another unknown. I believe we should applaud and encourage them instead of putting them down. I am not saying we should encourage everyone as their are lives at risk, but if someone like GlennF want to try and experiment, then we should support him. He obviously knows what he is doing. The guy makes his own salt!

I don't think I have put down GlennF at all. In fact I mentioned him as a good example of a successful system that has gone with out water changes and that if he can do it I'm sure others can as well. I also commend him on posting his methods on his website (which unfortunately others have stolen and trying to make a profit on it).

Scorpius · 10/28/2015, 09:26 AM

I do very few water changes on my 72 gal total system. Maybe 10 gals every month. I've gone a few months with no water changes and things did fine.

BlackTip · 10/28/2015, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason2459

I don't think I have put down GlennF at all. In fact I mentioned him as a good example of a successful system that has gone with out water changes and that if he can do it I'm sure others can as well. I also commend him on posting his methods on his website (which unfortunately others have stolen and trying to make a profit on it).

I apologize. I didn't mean to direct this comment at you. I was talking in general. I see a lot of bashing for his method, even though he has been successful for 10 long years.

10/27/2015, 04:40 AM	#26
Green Chromis Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: miami,florida Posts: 640	Hi Casey, you may get away with a beautiful tank for a few years, but I would ask Mother Nature why she does constant water changes? These water changes have been going on for billions of years. Can't fool mother nature. __________________ Natural Reefer Current Tank Info: 600 gallon Carribean Reef System, ETSS Protein Skimmer, 1.5HP Tradewinds Chiller, Reef Breeders Photon V2+ LED Lighting For The Refugium, Mitra LX7206 LED Lights For Display Tank

10/27/2015, 09:23 AM	#29
Tweaked FUP&A Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Madison, CT Posts: 7,722	Had a couple die hard buddies in the hobby for almost a decade get back to water changes after thinking it was not needed. A huge crash later and they can't believe the colors and health they see now with scheduled water changes. I'm not saying everyone will crash, just sharing their experiences. __________________ DSA 105 Pro, Cebu Sun-Radiums-M80 Ballasts, 4 T5's, XHO LEDs. Through Wall 55g Sump, 10g Frag and 29g Display attached, Vertex V6, 3 mp40's, Gyre, 2 mp10's, GFO, Carbon, Pellets - 10g Bar Tank

10/27/2015, 09:35 AM	#30
jason2459 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 9,671	Do them or don't. Just understand if you don't there's work still to be done in testing, dosing, and making sure export methods of some kind are in place. Glenf is a good example of someone that has successfully gone (so far) with out traditional periodic water changes. Sure there's the removal of things like frags and algae and filters etc that removes some water that needs added back in but I would not count that as a maintanence partial water change. Glenf has a website describing his method and the work that he's put into maintaining his system. PaulB is a great example of a very long running reef system that does do water changes but not on any normal frequent schedule. His thread and new book he wrote that's out now shows his methods of waste removal. Then look at just about every reef of the month and will show that doing frequent partial water changes can be done as well. So, I guess my point is make sure you know what you're getting into. I see no reason at all not to do periodic water changes at some kind of interval. Don't like hauling buckets? There's many ways to setup pumps/plumbing/tubing/etc to make it very easy or even completely automated. Doing water changes is a very easy (and can be cheap if you don't buy super expensive brands) way to help export unwanted nutrients and import back in necessary elements that were depleted. Some systems that's all that's needed. That's all I do for my small 20 gallon softy tank. No other filtration. Just 4gallon water changes each week. On my 180 mixed reef I setup daily automatic water changes of around 1% of the system volume. However it's not enough but sure does enough I just add some Mg to my salt mix once and dose lime water in my ATO. Couldn't be easier. Problem I see with the camp of never do water changes is that they have to test regularly and dose often. But there's no way everything that is bad can be tested for and no way everything that is needed can be tested for. At least not at a price we would want. There also is not much in the way of saving money on salt as it probably costs more to go that route on test kits, reagents, and individual elements to be dosed then what I spend. However, if conservation is the agenda then I can fully appreciate that especially in drought stricken areas. __________________ rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. \| 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank

10/27/2015, 09:56 AM	#31
Green Chromis Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: miami,florida Posts: 640	Dugless, very good post, I wonder what the cost and time difference is for adding all those different chemicals and monitoring them as compared to water changes. Another thing can you add all the elements to a tank like you would do with a water change, especially a water change using NSW. __________________ Natural Reefer Current Tank Info: 600 gallon Carribean Reef System, ETSS Protein Skimmer, 1.5HP Tradewinds Chiller, Reef Breeders Photon V2+ LED Lighting For The Refugium, Mitra LX7206 LED Lights For Display Tank

10/27/2015, 11:19 AM	#35
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	There are a lot of threads about this, the one in the advanced section has some good info. One issue with not changing water is that problems like rocks becoming saturated with phosphate or trace elements building up or depleting can take a long time to show up. So people think they have figured something out when they don't have algae for 7 months, and then at 18 months the tank crashes. Success in reefing is not less than a year for anything, when it comes to nutrient export I want to see at least 5 years and longer is better. There are tanks that have been successful without water changes, GlennF's is a good example of a sustainable long-term no waterchange regimen. I would do that if I lived in a drought place for ethical reasons, but I don't think it is easier. As with most things, the shortcut is a lot of work. Anybody that acts like they can add a few drops of this or that and have a no water change tank is kidding themself. We are talking about testing and maintaining at minimum: Ca,KH,Mg,Sr,K, and B, as well as tweaking NaCl. Assuming one is planning to run the tank for a long time, a great many reefers quit before they hit 10 years. BTW PaulB does regularly scheduled deep cleaning, he calls it a typhoon or hurricane or supermodel cyclone or something. It involves a diatom filter. I think he's also got a giant skimmer, algae trough, RUGF, and dinitrator. Still he does occasionally dump in some new sea water I think. __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

10/27/2015, 09:00 AM	#28
Dugless Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 416	No matter how much one tries to dodge it, it can't be ignored that a consistent water change schedule is the most obvious commonality shared by successful reef tanks. It doesn't take long to realize the most experienced reefers push this as the staple of success. Not only are they helpful in removing waste and nutrients, they are even more valuable by replacing elements coral rely on to thrive. I find the schedule just as important as the water change itself. Diligence in changing a consistent volume with a reliable timeframe ensures stability. Stability, in my mind, is the number one absolute in keeping coral. Water changes are the simplest and easiest way to keep tank parameters stable. Why would one want to dose a bottle of this and that to try and keep parameters dialed in? There are many elements that go untested which can be easily stabilized by a routine water change schedule. The deficit of such might take time to show itself, but it will. I liken water changes to changing the oil in an engine. If you stop doing them the car will continue to run. No one would argue that the instant you go past the recommended mileage the car will break down. In fact, it might continue for many thousands of miles. But how long down the road before things goes terribly wrong? There are many methods and practices out there in hopes of removing organics and waste within a reef aquarium. Many of which do a very good job. Skimmers, algae, live rock, etc. But no matter how well these items perform, they will never be able to keep up in removing the amount of organics we introduce into the tank by feeding our fish. Skimmers will never remove enough organics on their own. Algae cannot remove particulates before they begin to break down. And the life within our rock and sand can only go so far in consuming these organics. These dissolved organics have to go somewhere, they are never processed to the point of complete elimination. Yes, there are exceptions. You can employ different tasks like siphoning your waste into a filter sock and dosing different items into the tank, but I can't help but ask myself why complicate something that can be so very basic, simple and beneficial as a water change? The only reasons I can think of are time and money. Unfortunately I can't ever imagine a reef aquarium that is set and forget. If this is a goal, I expect there might be some struggles. Even the tasks we automate in order to simplify the work involved require weekly or monthly prep or intervention. Nothing will take care of itself indefinitely. As far as cost, salt is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. I've always thought it a wise decision to pay $45 for a box of salt in order to keep the many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of fish and coral healthy within a reef tank. These are living things and it is only wise to act responsibly when entrusted with their care. For every tank that is successful without performing water changes, I would wager that there are easily many more with proven success by utilizing them.

10/27/2015, 10:01 AM	#32
garygonzales Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: WEST ALLIS ,WI Posts: 922	but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

10/27/2015, 11:38 AM	#36
mhucasey Acros & wieners, oh my! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Oceanside, California Posts: 3,706	There are many misconceptions on this thread, and its doubtful that anyone firmly in either camp will change their mind. But to address the misconceptions: 1) Water change or no, nutrient export must be performed, dirt must be removed, etc. Just because I don't throw away water that is perfectly fine doesn't mean I don't remove a lot of crud via skimmer and the occasional siphoning into a filter sock. 2) I don't do very much testing, I have found that with a well designed system the levels stay pretty constant. I haven't had measurable Phosphate in over a year and a half. My nitrate is intentionally kept at 2-5ppm. The most testing I do is for KH because the demand changes as the coral growth accelerates. I would do this much testing if I was changing water - maybe more as water changes mess with the stable KH. 3) I don't add all that much outside the calcium and alkalinity 2-part solutions- 4 drops lugols per day, 5Ml each of two Fauna Marin color elements supplements per week, 8 drops iron citrate per week, and a ml of sponge supplement twice a week. I add Magnesium every month or so to keep the level above 1400. If I was changing water I would be dosing these items as well. 4) Water changes have no effect on sequestration of Phosphate in rock, unless you have a high phosphate problem. This happens when the phosphate levels are high - binding then occurs to aragonite. When phosphate levels are reduced in the water to lower levels, the aragonite exchanges phosphate back to the water. If you maintain low phosphate levels, no binding to substrate will occur. 5) The salt I lose from the skimmate is replaced by the uptake of the 2-part solutions. Residual Na and Cl from these keeps the salinity of the system pretty stable. these have to be dosed in equal amounts or you will have an ionic imbalance eventually and will need a water change. __________________ - Matt I call the big one "Bitey" - Homer Simpson See my tank thread here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2468548 Current Tank Info: 120 Gallon Rimless Starphire Shallow Reef. Reef Octopus Diablo EXT-200 skimmer, Chaeto Reactor, Lighting: ATI Sunpower 8X39W, 6X39W Sunpower

10/27/2015, 12:27 PM	#37
Dugless Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 416	Unless a skimmer or filter sock is capable of removing in it's entirety the amount of organics introduced daily, the tank can only trend towards decline. Even if the offset is minimal, it still adds up to a losing battle. There isn't a math formula out there that can prove the opposite. Even as waste gets broken down by the different biological activities, it still remains in the aquarium. It is a closed system. There is no magic to it. The only way to remove it completely, is to take water out and replace it. Perhaps the misconception lies in the stubborn denial that water changes are useful. Or that water becoming devoid of trace elements and getting saturated with dissolved organics is perfectly fine.

10/28/2015, 08:44 AM	#44
BlackTip Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 1,598	A guy without any experience here, so I am looking at this topic with unbiased opinion. 99% of reefers use synthetic sea salt. It is made of salt and other mineral and compounds needed by aquatic life. The main purpose of water change are to replenish the minerals consumed by aquatic life and to export SOME of undesirable stuff. Basically it is an attempt to keep the water in balance. Both tasks can be done by other means. The minerals can be replenished by dosing, and the undesirable stuff can be exported by aggressive filtration. So, what is the big deal? The contention points are, is it possible to have a filtration good enough, and is there a way to accurately test and replenish the consumed minerals? Handful of successful cases don't prove the methodology. More time and more successes are needed. To the inexperienced like myself, it seems a lot easier to change water. One step accomplish both tasks - replenish and export. Also, it is a proven method. For someone who like to tinker with water chemistry and like to do a lot of testing, then no water change is an option. __________________ 325G DT. 100G sump. In-sump refugium. SRO-5000SSS. 2 Gyres 150. 2 Water Blaster HY-5000. 2 Razor 320W. Apex Gold. MR2 GFO. 2 800W Heaters. Tunze Osmolater. 2 20g-long QT tanks. Geo 624 CA. 80W UV

10/28/2015, 08:55 AM	#45
jason2459 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Iowa Posts: 9,671	My biggest concerns about those things we can't test for or can't easily and affordably test for to know what all needs replenished or if we are properly exporting those things we don't want that can be harmful if built up or slowly being absorbed by our rocks/sand and eventually leached out. To many unknowns that doing a water change can help provide a buffer against. For me it reduces the burden of in-depth testing and dosing. I will fully admit I'm lazy and overall don't test that often. I will get into moods of testing or experimenting but then go very long periods of doing none of that at all. Automating my water changes was one of the best things I've done and ensures it gets done. One thing against water changes is that occasional bad batch that can throw things off. Or if collecting NSW that strain of a bad virus or bacteria or unknown pollution. RHF is always a good read http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php __________________ rebuild and recovery log: No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage! You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username. Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. \| 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank Last edited by jason2459; 10/28/2015 at 09:02 AM.

10/28/2015, 09:12 AM	#46
Green Chromis Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: miami,florida Posts: 640	Hi Jason, on using NSW, yes you need to be careful where you collect your water from. I have been using NSW for over 30yrs. in various systems, including my current system for over 20yrs., and have never had a problem with pollutants of other dangerous organisms. I collect all my water form the Gulfstream or Outer Reefs off the Florida Keys, and use it only a few hours after collection. The way I use it would add a lot of undesirables to the system if present, but so far only beneficial plankton and other organisms. __________________ Natural Reefer Current Tank Info: 600 gallon Carribean Reef System, ETSS Protein Skimmer, 1.5HP Tradewinds Chiller, Reef Breeders Photon V2+ LED Lighting For The Refugium, Mitra LX7206 LED Lights For Display Tank

10/28/2015, 09:26 AM	#49
Scorpius Stick Head Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 1,208	I do very few water changes on my 72 gal total system. Maybe 10 gals every month. I've gone a few months with no water changes and things did fine. __________________ Current Tank 65gal DSA rimless. Vortech MP-10 x4 Vectra M1. Kessil A360we x3 4-24in T5's. BRS 2 part LPS/SPS mixed reef. Will do ______ for Acropora.