anyone ever see this problem, or have the answer? with pics - Page 2

cncguy · 12/03/2016, 12:29 PM

one other thing, should I just try this theory, and see, or would it benefit to get some amino acid supplements? If so, which one?

75mixedreef · 12/03/2016, 03:38 PM

I'd give things a try one step at a time. Feeding more and target feeding your corals is basically the same thing just one is directly for the corals while feeding the fish is a little more indirect. The Xenia is a filter feeder and the volume you have of it clearly has to be depleting the food from the water. Feeding more and removing competition should help move towards the same goal, just don't over do it and cause a nutrient spike. Personally I use Reefroids to target feed my corals but I know I under feed my fish and I'm not even running a skimmer right now.

If you wanted to test this out before removing too much xenia, then turn off your skimmer and remove half of the xenia, maybe less. Those are both doing the same thing, plus by removing some of the xenia you should also reduce the coral warfare, use carbon for the rest and the filtering capabilities of the xenia remaining will remove the need for you to run the skimmer. This is just a theory and you can see how it works for you, but it should be alright. Just try to keep some distance between the xenia and the other corals so the toxins have a chance to be absorbed by the carbon before getting to your other corals.

cncguy · 12/03/2016, 07:14 PM

Sounds like a plan, I'll take out a boat load of Xenia, put in the quarantine tank, and feed the fish some more, and plan on feeding the corals at least a few times a week?

And leave the skimmer off a few days a week?

Then after Santa is done shopping, and holidays are over, get some more fish!!!!

GoVols · 12/03/2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncguy

To answer one question, I just looked at my first post, was 2 January's ago. So I've been trying to address this for well over 2 years......

And for consistency, I'll usually go at least a 2 months, if not longer when trying something

The quote in Timfish's post is exactly what my next move is....
"Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs"

I read an AWESOME thread here last night, 'the secret to colorful, heathly corals....obvious to some, elusive to many'

Almost like a lightbulb came on! I try not to get too excited because I've failed so far, and my little brain doesn't comprehend all the scientific stuff, but......

I think my problem the whole time has been good husbandry, but no food/nutrients in the column.

So, without getting into the technical stuff I don't understand, I think I've been WAY underfeeding, (barely once a day, a small pinch of pellets for 4 fish), and am gonna feed way more than that, because I think my maintenance is good enough to get the bad stuff out after/while it's deteriorating.

Should get some more fish too, and take out a PILE of xenia. Just hate to throw away something living tho;(

So, if my little brain understood that post, basically want a lot in the water comumn, but suck out the detritus regularly before it turns bad?

Is frozen food still good after exp date, maybe just not as good?

Maybe I can Help...

Google This Video - Red Sea Reef Care - Coral Nutrition Program (episode 4/5) HD

Better yet watch all 5 of their Reef Care videos.

If your fish are healthy don't add frozen foods to tank to add organics.

Dosing Reef Energy: Dose time about 30 mins. before lights out. Turn Skimmer off for 1 and a half hours. Leave all other pumps on. Reef energy with flow on will feed ALL of your corals. After 1 and a half hours turn skimmer back on.

If this doesn't work it's Nitrates or Phosphates. I'd never run a reef with out a GFO
reactor.

Hope this helps

75mixedreef · 12/03/2016, 11:40 PM

Like people said before, some do use xenia as their nutrient export system. Xenia will take in dissolved organic compounds, exactly what the skimmer takes out of the water, and PO4 and NO3. So leaving a significant amount of xenia will provide plenty of filtration to completely remove the skimmer entirely. If you are waiting until after Christmas to add more fish then all you need to do is only increase your feeding (fish) slightly at first. Go ahead and start feeding the corals a couple times a week. I was only worried about you adding fish, feeding more, start feeding the corals, removing xenia, and shutting down the skimmer all at the same time. If you don't remove more than 75% of the xenia and don't add fish then it should not have too large of an impact all at once.

Also one thing that may not have been stressed enough, test your phosphates. You want to let your tank get dirtier until you get a reading of around .05 on the phosphate test, then you just want to maintain those levels. It can be difficult to say if you are going too far or not far enough with these situations. As long as you test for nutrients as you go you should be fine with large changes. I'm just a little worried that too small of changes will take too long to let the nutrients rise to a level where they can start to make a noticeable difference. Then you are left wondering if you received bad advice, or just move on to the next idea.

Just remember that all the xenia growth you see is coming from nutrients that other corals are not able to take in.

BTW: I have a mixed reef with plenty of SPS and LPS (I'm more or less trying to kill the softies). At the moment I am running without a skimmer, or any other form of filtration other than live rock and sand and am getting good growth. In two weeks the SPS that was just fragged and added to my tank has encrusted 1/4 inch or more, plus my acros are showing decent growth as well, but are harder to measure because of a lack of reference point. As a disclaimer, I did have an ATS running 2 months ago before the move, but before that my skimmer has not been on in over a year (it died). Our tanks can certainly run in much higher nutrient rich environments than you would think. Mine was just waiting for me to replace the lights after one of my ballasts burnt out. As soon as you hit that target area where the corals are mostly happy, they will surprise you with how fast they can grow (as long as something else doesn't beat them to it).

GoVols · 12/03/2016, 11:54 PM

FYI, You can't guess your Mag. levels. It should be about 3 x's your calcium #.

Mag. Is like grease for corals to take in Calcium and Alk. If Mag is to low your Cal. and Alk ions will attach to each other and corals can't drink in the cal and alk. 3 x's the cal. # for your Mag keeps the Cal and Alk ions separated so corals can in take them.

Like this... Peanut butter sandwich and saliva. You want protein for your body.
1) peanut butter = Calcium
2) bread = Alk
3) saliva = Magnesium

You can stuff #1 and #2 in your mouth but with out #3 it's stuck together as one part and won't get to your stomach.

GoVols · 12/03/2016, 11:59 PM

LPS and SPS need Cal and Alk intake. Xenia pretty much none.

GoVols · 12/04/2016, 12:08 AM

LPS and SPS need Cal and Alk intake. Xenia pretty much none.

KingOfAll_Tyrants · 12/04/2016, 10:17 AM

cncguy,

Nothing to add, but thanks for starting this thread. I've been watching this thread yesterday and today, and it's been very instructive.

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 10:20 AM

Thanks for the advice guys!!! I'm actually more excited about this than any of the other suggestions/ideas I've tried before.

I'm gonna follow these suggestions, and see how things look in a month or so.

I'll get another magnesium test. I understand it needs checked, as that was the one I was checking most at one point, when I was getting my parameters where they should be, and went through more of those tests than any other actually. A couple years ago when I started addressing my problems, it was around 1500, then after getting everything squared away, it runs about 1350, and I add Kent Tech M as maintenance...

GoVols, I love the grease/saliva analogy!!!!

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 10:20 AM

Thanks King, same problem????

KingOfAll_Tyrants · 12/04/2016, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncguy

Thanks King, same problem????

No, I don't have a tank yet, am squirreling this thread and these ideas away for the near future....

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 11:22 AM

Get as much info as you can, and hope you do better than me!!!!!

Good luck

Meshmez · 12/04/2016, 06:09 PM

i agree about it potentially being low nutrients.

My old tank was running for years with decent growth, but nothing amazing, also sps always seemed pale.. I started feeding more and all of a sudden everything started to color up and grow like crazy... unfortunately... i over did it and fed too much too fast and ended up crashing my tank and losing almost everything....

so feed more, but dont overdo it!

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 06:28 PM

Ugh, good advice meshmez. How to avoid that? Just with nitrates and phos?

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 06:38 PM

anybody think I should try the red sea reef energy A and B, or just start with removing most of the xenia and feeding more?

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 06:44 PM

also just checked phosphate, and it is definitely 0, or between that and 0.03 on the salifert test

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 06:53 PM

Does that reading prove I can feed way more than I am? Without overdoing of course

GoVols · 12/04/2016, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncguy

anybody think I should try the red sea reef energy A and B, or just start with removing most of the xenia and feeding more?

If it were me... I get the Xenia out. Soft corals can release chemical war fair on other corals. Had a Toadstool years ago. Every time I added a new LPS or SPS the Toadstool could sense (smell) them in the water flow. That joker would always start releasing chemicals in the war and the chemical war fair was on. This is how they hold and take over new space in the wild on coral reefs. Finally got him out and my entire reef calmed down.

Either way, Please keep us updated with your progress.

Regards, Govols

GoVols · 12/04/2016, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncguy

Thanks for the advice guys!!! I'm actually more excited about this than any of the other suggestions/ideas I've tried before.

I'm gonna follow these suggestions, and see how things look in a month or so.

I'll get another magnesium test. I understand it needs checked, as that was the one I was checking most at one point, when I was getting my parameters where they should be, and went through more of those tests than any other actually. A couple years ago when I started addressing my problems, it was around 1500, then after getting everything squared away, it runs about 1350, and I add Kent Tech M as maintenance...

GoVols, I love the grease/saliva analogy!!!!

Thanks, That's how Lou from Tropic Marin explained it to me years ago.

He's head over Tropic Marin USA.

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 09:29 PM

update, just took out a boat load of xenia, and put in the quarantine tank

Step 1----done!!!

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 09:32 PM

I'd say took out probably at least well over 50%

Only 2 big patches I left were by the anemone, cause he keeps them under control!!!

I'll post pics tomorrow night and show you guys what I've done

Looks like crap right now, and not too worried about the aquascaping right now

cncguy · 12/04/2016, 09:58 PM

last post for the night---

You guys are awesome, thanks!!!

Meshmez · 12/05/2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncguy

Ugh, good advice meshmez. How to avoid that? Just with nitrates and phos?

ya, I would monitor nitrates and phosphate for sure.

alcimedes · 12/05/2016, 03:07 PM

I've seen you ask a few times about whether or not your RODI water could be the culprit.

Have you done a TDS check on the water it's putting out? Is it zero? If it's zero I think you can remove the water from the list of potential culprits.

edit: Also, I thought of all the soft corals Xenia was the one that basically had no chemical defenses, is that inaccurate?

12/03/2016, 11:40 PM	#30
75mixedreef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 255	Like people said before, some do use xenia as their nutrient export system. Xenia will take in dissolved organic compounds, exactly what the skimmer takes out of the water, and PO4 and NO3. So leaving a significant amount of xenia will provide plenty of filtration to completely remove the skimmer entirely. If you are waiting until after Christmas to add more fish then all you need to do is only increase your feeding (fish) slightly at first. Go ahead and start feeding the corals a couple times a week. I was only worried about you adding fish, feeding more, start feeding the corals, removing xenia, and shutting down the skimmer all at the same time. If you don't remove more than 75% of the xenia and don't add fish then it should not have too large of an impact all at once. Also one thing that may not have been stressed enough, test your phosphates. You want to let your tank get dirtier until you get a reading of around .05 on the phosphate test, then you just want to maintain those levels. It can be difficult to say if you are going too far or not far enough with these situations. As long as you test for nutrients as you go you should be fine with large changes. I'm just a little worried that too small of changes will take too long to let the nutrients rise to a level where they can start to make a noticeable difference. Then you are left wondering if you received bad advice, or just move on to the next idea. Just remember that all the xenia growth you see is coming from nutrients that other corals are not able to take in. BTW: I have a mixed reef with plenty of SPS and LPS (I'm more or less trying to kill the softies). At the moment I am running without a skimmer, or any other form of filtration other than live rock and sand and am getting good growth. In two weeks the SPS that was just fragged and added to my tank has encrusted 1/4 inch or more, plus my acros are showing decent growth as well, but are harder to measure because of a lack of reference point. As a disclaimer, I did have an ATS running 2 months ago before the move, but before that my skimmer has not been on in over a year (it died). Our tanks can certainly run in much higher nutrient rich environments than you would think. Mine was just waiting for me to replace the lights after one of my ballasts burnt out. As soon as you hit that target area where the corals are mostly happy, they will surprise you with how fast they can grow (as long as something else doesn't beat them to it). Last edited by 75mixedreef; 12/03/2016 at 11:51 PM.

12/03/2016, 11:54 PM	#31
GoVols Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: VolNation Posts: 456	FYI, You can't guess your Mag. levels. It should be about 3 x's your calcium #. Mag. Is like grease for corals to take in Calcium and Alk. If Mag is to low your Cal. and Alk ions will attach to each other and corals can't drink in the cal and alk. 3 x's the cal. # for your Mag keeps the Cal and Alk ions separated so corals can in take them. Like this... Peanut butter sandwich and saliva. You want protein for your body. 1) peanut butter = Calcium 2) bread = Alk 3) saliva = Magnesium You can stuff #1 and #2 in your mouth but with out #3 it's stuck together as one part and won't get to your stomach. __________________ VFL Current Tank Info: 2013-RSM S-400 (Merlot) / BB / Mixed Reef / Lighting: Kessil AP700 with S-Series led bar / Bubble King 160 skimmer / GEO 2-Stage Cal Reactor with GLA dual-stage regulator / Teco TK-1000 Chiller & Heater / GFO & Purigen reactor's

12/03/2016, 11:59 PM	#32
GoVols Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: VolNation Posts: 456	LPS and SPS need Cal and Alk intake. Xenia pretty much none. __________________ VFL Current Tank Info: 2013-RSM S-400 (Merlot) / BB / Mixed Reef / Lighting: Kessil AP700 with S-Series led bar / Bubble King 160 skimmer / GEO 2-Stage Cal Reactor with GLA dual-stage regulator / Teco TK-1000 Chiller & Heater / GFO & Purigen reactor's

12/04/2016, 12:08 AM	#33
GoVols Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: VolNation Posts: 456	LPS and SPS need Cal and Alk intake. Xenia pretty much none. __________________ VFL Current Tank Info: 2013-RSM S-400 (Merlot) / BB / Mixed Reef / Lighting: Kessil AP700 with S-Series led bar / Bubble King 160 skimmer / GEO 2-Stage Cal Reactor with GLA dual-stage regulator / Teco TK-1000 Chiller & Heater / GFO & Purigen reactor's

12/04/2016, 10:17 AM	#34
KingOfAll_Tyrants Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: East Coast US Posts: 95	cncguy, Nothing to add, but thanks for starting this thread. I've been watching this thread yesterday and today, and it's been very instructive. __________________ Purple tyrannosaurs. Yes.... Current Tank Info: In planning stages. Kessil 360we, eshopps rs-75 sump

12/03/2016, 12:29 PM	#26
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	one other thing, should I just try this theory, and see, or would it benefit to get some amino acid supplements? If so, which one?

12/03/2016, 03:38 PM	#27
75mixedreef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 255	I'd give things a try one step at a time. Feeding more and target feeding your corals is basically the same thing just one is directly for the corals while feeding the fish is a little more indirect. The Xenia is a filter feeder and the volume you have of it clearly has to be depleting the food from the water. Feeding more and removing competition should help move towards the same goal, just don't over do it and cause a nutrient spike. Personally I use Reefroids to target feed my corals but I know I under feed my fish and I'm not even running a skimmer right now. If you wanted to test this out before removing too much xenia, then turn off your skimmer and remove half of the xenia, maybe less. Those are both doing the same thing, plus by removing some of the xenia you should also reduce the coral warfare, use carbon for the rest and the filtering capabilities of the xenia remaining will remove the need for you to run the skimmer. This is just a theory and you can see how it works for you, but it should be alright. Just try to keep some distance between the xenia and the other corals so the toxins have a chance to be absorbed by the carbon before getting to your other corals.

12/03/2016, 07:14 PM	#28
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	Sounds like a plan, I'll take out a boat load of Xenia, put in the quarantine tank, and feed the fish some more, and plan on feeding the corals at least a few times a week? And leave the skimmer off a few days a week? Then after Santa is done shopping, and holidays are over, get some more fish!!!!

12/04/2016, 10:20 AM	#35
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	Thanks for the advice guys!!! I'm actually more excited about this than any of the other suggestions/ideas I've tried before. I'm gonna follow these suggestions, and see how things look in a month or so. I'll get another magnesium test. I understand it needs checked, as that was the one I was checking most at one point, when I was getting my parameters where they should be, and went through more of those tests than any other actually. A couple years ago when I started addressing my problems, it was around 1500, then after getting everything squared away, it runs about 1350, and I add Kent Tech M as maintenance... GoVols, I love the grease/saliva analogy!!!!

12/04/2016, 11:22 AM	#38
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	Get as much info as you can, and hope you do better than me!!!!! Good luck

12/04/2016, 06:09 PM	#39
Meshmez Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,030	i agree about it potentially being low nutrients. My old tank was running for years with decent growth, but nothing amazing, also sps always seemed pale.. I started feeding more and all of a sudden everything started to color up and grow like crazy... unfortunately... i over did it and fed too much too fast and ended up crashing my tank and losing almost everything.... so feed more, but dont overdo it!

12/04/2016, 06:28 PM	#40
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	Ugh, good advice meshmez. How to avoid that? Just with nitrates and phos?

12/04/2016, 06:38 PM	#41
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	anybody think I should try the red sea reef energy A and B, or just start with removing most of the xenia and feeding more?

12/04/2016, 06:44 PM	#42
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	also just checked phosphate, and it is definitely 0, or between that and 0.03 on the salifert test

12/04/2016, 06:53 PM	#43
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	Does that reading prove I can feed way more than I am? Without overdoing of course

12/04/2016, 09:29 PM	#46
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	update, just took out a boat load of xenia, and put in the quarantine tank Step 1----done!!!

12/04/2016, 09:32 PM	#47
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	I'd say took out probably at least well over 50% Only 2 big patches I left were by the anemone, cause he keeps them under control!!! I'll post pics tomorrow night and show you guys what I've done Looks like crap right now, and not too worried about the aquascaping right now

12/04/2016, 09:58 PM	#48
cncguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Kane, PA Posts: 296	last post for the night--- You guys are awesome, thanks!!!

12/05/2016, 03:07 PM	#50
alcimedes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 174	I've seen you ask a few times about whether or not your RODI water could be the culprit. Have you done a TDS check on the water it's putting out? Is it zero? If it's zero I think you can remove the water from the list of potential culprits. edit: Also, I thought of all the soft corals Xenia was the one that basically had no chemical defenses, is that inaccurate?