Bottled Bacteria

[ncaldwell]

Because that sadly isn't how it works with this hobby. You'd be surprised how many arguments my wife gets into with customers who want to put a saltwater fish in freshwater. Sales refused because they want to do it anyway even if it's going to die. The scenario isn't ideal by mine or some others standards but at least they are trying to do right by the animal now. Lesson learned hopefully

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[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Elricsfate,

Thanks for starting this thread. I thought I was aware of everything procedure-wise for the setup of my soon-to-start tank, but while I heard of such products before I had not really paid attention to them until I read this thread.

If I get this right, these products claim to give you a full nitrogen cycle? You set up your tank (say, with dead sand and 1lbs/gal of cured dead rock), apply the product, and then it's claimed that you can start adding fish and at least some soft inverts?

If that's so, it seems to me (based simply on my experience with marketing claims ) that they can make the claim because it's "mostly true". Some posters have said they've been successful with this. From what I've heard, you may be pushing it if you suddenly add a high biomass to your new tank, but it also seems to me that it's hard to prove that any problems were because the product didn't work. (they may also have a warning on the label that says "don't add stuff too fast" )

Finally, what if you add Biospira to a brand new tank that's just gotten an appropriate amount of cured live rock and live sand? Does the rock and sand effectively make the Biospira superfluous?

KoAT

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Originally Posted by ncaldwell

Because that sadly isn't how it works with this hobby. You'd be surprised how many arguments my wife gets into with customers who want to put a saltwater fish in freshwater. Sales refused because they want to do it anyway even if it's going to die. The scenario isn't ideal by mine or some others standards but at least they are trying to do right by the animal now. Lesson learned hopefully

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Good for your wife. I doubt if some vendors even have that much care for their animals (and if I doubted, there's no way I'd buy from them!! Ref: the thread currently in Responsible Reefkeeping about big box Pet-places).

[Dealseer]

Originally Posted by vashawn

i see them but i dont trust em! im sure there a lot of reefers that use em and swear by it but why rush where your dumping tons of money.
I mean it takes what about 30-60days to cycle a tank.

Don't know about "trust", but I love bottled bacteria.

[gone fishin]

I tried a bacteria in a bottle product a number of years ago and did not see much upside to it. I have not tried the biospira product. I have been curious about it and if I start up another tank I think I may give it a try.

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by Raintree

I think adding a bacteria source and then immediately adding fish is risky and a bit irresponsible to say the least. You owe it to the animal that you are taking from the nice, clean, "cycled" ocean to at LEAST drop some ammonia in the tank to see how it's handled.

Why not test the effectiveness with ammonia or fish food instead of with a living animal?

Here is the information straight from IO regarding Bio Spira:

I don't see how I am being irresponsible, if they are providing accurate information. If they are not, then they are being irresponsible.

BIO-Spira® makes your marine aquarium fish-safe instantly.

With patented nitrifying bacteria, BIO-Spira® accelerates the establishment of the bio-filter in newly set up saltwater aquariums. The live bacteria start working immediately to provide a safe and healthy environment for your fish without the long wait. BIO-Spira can also be used after a water change, when adding new fish or after medicating.

• Live nitrifying bacteria start working immediately to reduce dangerous ammonia and nitrite

• BIO-Spira prevents new tank syndrome

• The patented mix of Nitrococcus, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira is proven to work

• Shelf stable formula requires no refrigeration

• 100ml treats up to 30 gallons; 250ml treats up to 75 gallons; 5ml treats 10 gallons

[Elricsfate]

I do appreciate all of the input. As with all things, some people will agree and others will disagree. However, as the tone of some replies seems to indicate that there are those who believe I don't give a crap about the well being of the animals, I want to clear that up.

First, 1 fish in a 75g tank is not a heavy bio load.

Second, I am testing the water twice a day to make sure all is well, and if I need to do water changes I am prepared to do so.

Third, I do not know what kind of moron wants to put a saltwater fish in a freshwater tank, but I am not that kind of moron.

Fourth, "Because that's how everyone else does it" isn't a good enough reason for me to do something.

Fifth, I am relying on a product produced by a manufacturer that hobbyists all over the world rely on for various products (especially salt) which are vital to the lives of their animals. I didn't go buy Jimbob's Super Secret Aquarium Stuff.

Lastly, while everyone is debating whether this process will work or not, or kill the fish or not...the fish is doing just fine, the numbers are acceptable, and the product appears to be doing what it claims to do.

I am the kind of person who will spend $500 trying to save a $5 fish. I am not going to blithely sit here and watch the situation deteriorate. But the simple fact is, *IF* this product and others like it actually do what they claim (and thus far it appears they do), then there is no reason not to use them. There is only one way to get firsthand experience...

[75mixedreef]

When upgrading to a new tank with additional volume, more rock, and new sand (with some seeded) should I put in a bottle of bacteria to be safe? I don't have any fish right now, only corals and one or two peppermint shrimp. Would a bottle of bacteria help at all? Would it hurt at all?

I don't want to lose any corals so I'm willing to consider the snake oil if there seems to be a reason to.

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by 75mixedreef

I don't want to lose any corals so I'm willing to consider the snake oil if there seems to be a reason to.

I'm not going to offer anyone advice.

However, I will say this. If this stuff is snake oil then we all need to stop buying Instant Ocean products, because they make it. We also need to stop shopping at BRS and Marine Depot, because they sell it.

I'll leave it at that.

[GimpyFin]

You're completely fine doing what you did to start the tank, especially with just one fish. I've started all my tanks and QT tanks over the last few years with it. Not once have I harmed a fish or had an ammonia problem doing this. I understand skepticism, but IMO, anybody that thinks there's some sort of cruelty or bad practice by using this is just being ignorant. It's not a magic potion sold off some cheesy infomercial that's going in your tank. It's bottled bacteria that helps break down ammonia, plain and simple. All your doing is shortcutting a normal cycle by adding bacteria that would otherwise slowly develop with an ammonia source.

[75mixedreef]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

I'm not going to offer anyone advice.

However, I will say this. If this stuff is snake oil then we all need to stop buying Instant Ocean products, because they make it. We also need to stop shopping at BRS and Marine Depot, because they sell it.

I'll leave it at that.

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

[gone fishin]

Easy there on Jimbob, he has feelings. Or is that BillyBob never mind

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by 75mixedreef

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

All good. To my mind, "snake oil" implies scam. If I thought any company in this process was scamming people I'd stop doing business with them.

In any event, I have no idea with regard to the formulation and whether it would work for you or not. All I can say at the moment is that it is working for me, in my situation.

I'll update the thread if the fish dies, or the levels go up or down in any significant way, or anything else that I think might be useful to others happens.

In the end, learning from each other's experiences is what this whole thing is supposed to be about.

[Rython]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

I do appreciate all of the input. As with all things, some people will agree and others will disagree. However, as the tone of some replies seems to indicate that there are those who believe I don't give a crap about the well being of the animals, I want to clear that up.

First, 1 fish in a 75g tank is not a heavy bio load.

Second, I am testing the water twice a day to make sure all is well, and if I need to do water changes I am prepared to do so.

Third, I do not know what kind of moron wants to put a saltwater fish in a freshwater tank, but I am not that kind of moron.

Fourth, "Because that's how everyone else does it" isn't a good enough reason for me to do something.

Fifth, I am relying on a product produced by a manufacturer that hobbyists all over the world rely on for various products (especially salt) which are vital to the lives of their animals. I didn't go buy Jimbob's Super Secret Aquarium Stuff.

Lastly, while everyone is debating whether this process will work or not, or kill the fish or not...the fish is doing just fine, the numbers are acceptable, and the product appears to be doing what it claims to do.

I am the kind of person who will spend $500 trying to save a $5 fish. I am not going to blithely sit here and watch the situation deteriorate. But the simple fact is, *IF* this product and others like it actually do what they claim (and thus far it appears they do), then there is no reason not to use them. There is only one way to get firsthand experience...

Well said.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by 75mixedreef

Snake oil doesn't mean scam, it means that what's being sold doesn't live up to its claimed effects. Some bottled bacteria brands are not packaged properly and all you get is dead bacteria. I don't want to add a mix of dead and live bacteria that will cause its own mini cycle, that might work out fine for a new tank, but I'm doing an upgrade with quite a bit invested in corals.

All I mean by snake oil is that I am skeptical of its claims. You are taking it to an extreme with over exaggerated conclusions. BRS and Marine Depot sell plenty of products that some people find useless. Some people think certain fish foods are more harm than good. If people buy something then a seller will continue to sell it. That just makes good business sense.

There is most definitely live bacteria in Bio-Spira.

[newlights]

I use bio spira and have had success and i would say instant is kind of misleading. Its a major kickstart and you can add fish day one, but you can't go and fully stock your tank even with overdosing this stuff. You can add a fish or two but thats about it. And honeslty even though i use and love the stuff the fish i put in on day one or two wouldnt be an expensive one either, nor would i add a less hardy fish just in case. I would also continue to wait on corals for at least 30 days.

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[jayball]

Originally Posted by GimpyFin

Again, this is where some of the confusion happens with Bio spira. You don't need to add an ammonia source like shrimp and do Bio spira both. If you want to use Bio spira, you can skip the shrimp altogether unless you want to cycle the tank normlly and not use Bio spira. The bacteria in bio spira will break down ammonia in lieu of waiting for that bacteria to establish with the cycle and ammonia spike. Just take it slow when adding liveatock.

If the Biospira gave you a effectively cycled aquarium than the ammonia would just be processed. If your aquarium can process 1-2 ppm of ammonia overnight to nitrate than you have an established filter.

I used it when I originally set up the tank and I still use it when I cycle QT tanks. It speeds up the process but it does not set up a fully functioning bio filter all on its own right when you dump it in the tank.

For the OP, monitor your ammonia. If you get any than you should use prime to neutralize it to avoid harming the fish.

[Fnic99]

How long does the bacteria live in the bottle? Is there a shelf life? Temperature range for shipping?

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by StatelineReefer

I still took my time adding livestock, and now three years later, I added a coral!

...Which my sailfin tang immediately began picking at.

Because your tank is too small to properly feed a sailfin tang.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by jayball

For the OP, monitor your ammonia. If you get any than you should use prime to neutralize it to avoid harming the fish.

But not if using copper.

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by jayball

For the OP, monitor your ammonia. If you get any than you should use prime to neutralize it to avoid harming the fish.

Yep. I bought Amquel+ But I also have a bottle of Prime lying about. I am keeping close tabs. Which is not to say that something bad couldn't happen. Just that it hasn't.

Fish is eating, exploring, breathing and acting normally. There is detectable ammonia in the tank, but at last reading it was .25 I did in fact add the proper amount of Amquel immediately after that test.

Tomorrow after work I am going to do a decent water change, just because the Nitrates are going up. So...while I know that high Nitrate levels are not good....the fact that there are Nitrate levels is good. It means the bacteria are doing their job.

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by snorvich

But not if using copper.

I am not going to be using copper, because I also put a Sally Lightfoot in the tank when I bought the fish.

However, I was unaware there was an issue with ammonia neutralizers and copper. Thanks for the heads up! Can you briefly tell me what the issue is so I not only know to avoid it, but why to avoid it?

Thanks

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

I am not going to be using copper, because I also put a Sally Lightfoot in the tank when I bought the fish.

However, I was unaware there was an issue with ammonia neutralizers and copper. Thanks for the heads up! Can you briefly tell me what the issue is so I not only know to avoid it, but why to avoid it?

Thanks

from this
Amquel and Amquel Plust
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1288099

Originally Posted by Boomer

I agree with Bill, Randy and badpacket

As far as any problems with the plus no, it is the issue that their claim reduces nitrates. Well, it seems to but does not as the "plus" in the Amquel Plus interfers with the nitrate test kit giving it very low readings.

There are other problems with almost any form of dechlor, dechloramin or any aldehyde based product when overdosed. They will reduce Cu ++ to Cu+, which is 10 times more toxic. So, in short, using any copper product for treatment and dumping in any of these dechlor's is a big No-No

[GimpyFin]

Originally Posted by newlights

I use bio spira and have had success and i would say instant is kind of misleading. Its a major kickstart and you can add fish day one, but you can't go and fully stock your tank even with overdosing this stuff. You can add a fish or two but thats about it. And honeslty even though i use and love the stuff the fish i put in on day one or two wouldnt be an expensive one either, nor would i add a less hardy fish just in case. I would also continue to wait on corals for at least 30 days.

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Nowhere on the bio spira bottle does it say or recommend you adding a lot of fish initially, nor does Instant Ocean's website. You still take it slow adding fish like you normally would.

Originally Posted by jayball

If the Biospira gave you a effectively cycled aquarium than the ammonia would just be processed. If your aquarium can process 1-2 ppm of ammonia overnight to nitrate than you have an established filter.

I used it when I originally set up the tank and I still use it when I cycle QT tanks. It speeds up the process but it does not set up a fully functioning bio filter all on its own right when you dump it in the tank.

For the OP, monitor your ammonia. If you get any than you should use prime to neutralize it to avoid harming the fish.

It gives you a functioning biofilter, just not a well established one that will handle large bio load. That's why you only add maybe a small fish or two. I've never had ammonia when using it in the last 3-4 years, but I don't push its limits either.

[thegrun]

I was always sceptible about the bacteria in a bottle products, mainly from the products that were on the market ten years or more ago that were all snake oil. A year ago I had an ich outbreak and needed to get some dry rock cycled quickly so as to have biological filtration when the fish completed their 12 day tank transfers. I tried Dr. Tim's One and Only, added pure ammonia and had a complete cycle in 4 days. In most situations I would still go through a regular non bacteria in a bottle cycle, but if the need arises for a quick cycle I would certainly recommend Dr. Tims, but I would be VERY hesitant to put fish in on day one.