LED as main light - Page 2

Obi-dad · 03/14/2004, 06:49 PM

After re-reading my posts, I think I sounded too negative - don't get me wrong, I would love to have a reasonable number of LEDs be suitable for corals. But after looking into this a few years ago, I have my doubts. Time for some measurements with a cheap lux meter.

ONAGI · 03/14/2004, 06:59 PM

I really think that evaluating the effectiveness of LEDs simply in terms of wattage is a mistake. It's the light spectrum that matters not the wattage. The Kelvin, PAR and CRI is what will be most important in how useful the lighting is. This is also why people are wanting to see what a lux meter will read on the LEDS.

Watts per gallon is a rule of thumb measurement people use in this hobby for thier tank needs.

Power compacts typically have lower wattages than VHO's, but they put out comparitive or possibly better lighting as higher powered lights.

I remember reading this in a post that really hashed out the terminology of wattage, Kelvin, PAR and CRI. Wattage was the least useful in evaluating light effectiveness.

MadTownMax · 03/14/2004, 07:11 PM

definately be nice to know what a lux or par meter says, If you can find a reef club near you someone might have a meter and could check out the readings. I have an 1 led moonlight in my tank and it casts great shimmer lines and is really bright.

olemos · 03/14/2004, 07:19 PM

hey if this thing works it will save a ton of money across the years of owning a aquarium
show us pics when it is setup

bluetropic · 03/14/2004, 07:38 PM

I tried to respond earlier but this thing screwed up. Watts is a very poor way of measuring light. MH lose a HUGH amount of power to heat. As for a bad LED, if you divided it up into rows it should not be hard to find a dud. I realize LEDs are spectrum specific, but you could mix them at differant levels to acheive "sunlight". I myself would place the LEDs 1/8th inch apart. I wish I did have a lux meter.

greenbean36191 · 03/14/2004, 07:41 PM

Wattage is more of a measurement of power consumption than light output, but we generally think higher wattage lighting is brighter. This isn't always true though. The way you measure effeciency also isn't a very good way. For example I could replace the element of a MH bulb with something like platinum and it might make less heat (so a higher percentage of the energy would be turned to light), but it would probably also make less light, but it would still be 400w of lighting.
I think wattage is used to describe lighting because if you advertised a bulb as #PAR or #lux you don't have a very good idea of what kind of other hardware (ballast, sockets, wiring) is needed to run it. The simple solution is to group all of the bulbs that use common hardware together which just happens to group them by wattage.

ne pats#2 · 03/14/2004, 07:59 PM

where can you buy these led lights? i would like to try this experiment also. i really love the look of shimmer lines but i do not need halides for my setup so this would be perfect.

sandisct · 03/14/2004, 08:10 PM

wow 1 night away from RC and got so much response.... Will try to get the Lux meter asap.... a friend of mine got 1. so probably would try to take the measurement this 2 days...

Will post the results once i got it.

bluetropic · 03/14/2004, 08:11 PM

Just type in LED (bulk, sale, supplier or whatever) in your explorer search, There are tons of places that sell 'em buy the roll. It should not be hard to find at all, just try you will soon be overwhelmed!

sandisct · 03/14/2004, 08:12 PM

BTW, what is the recommended lux reading for a proper reef tank?

bradwent · 03/14/2004, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandisct
BTW, what is the recommended lux reading for a proper reef tank?

This may be some data of interest to you, Spectral Analysis of MH Lamps - Do ballasts make a difference

This should help to get some values off different MH bulbs.

bluetropic · 03/14/2004, 09:15 PM

I noticed the graphs are quite "spikey", you probably would get a similar effect by using LEDs. Natural sunlight is one "smooth" wave. So if MH can work, why not different LEDs mixed together?

emelton · 03/14/2004, 10:30 PM

Tagging

Reelfun20 · 03/14/2004, 10:49 PM

me too...

Obi-dad · 03/14/2004, 10:57 PM

Anyone like to place a bet that 8W of LED is anywhere near close to the light output of a 250w MH? I have plenty of takers for the opposite side of that bet.

Erick504 · 03/14/2004, 11:11 PM

tagging along

xrunner1234 · 03/14/2004, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandisct
BTW, there is 0 heat emission!!!

If I could do that, I'd be rich.
Tagging..

5thtonbench · 03/14/2004, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Obi-dad
Anyone like to place a bet that 8W of LED is anywhere near close to the light output of a 250w MH? I have plenty of takers for the opposite side of that bet.

I think you would put a lot of people onboard if they would just keep in mind those tiny keychain LED flashlights... they run on a watch battery, last forever off that tiny stinkin battery, and put off as much light as a small mag light. Only difference is, some of the LED keychain lights come with a blindness warning that you could damage your eyes with direct contact. Never seen that on a mag light

And again back to my police-light example, I guess not many have seen the newest cruisers with LED lights... when they pass you, the reflected light through you mirror feels like it burns into your retinas for a minute!

I'm not going to jump on board with a specific comparison like this, but there is no doubt that wattage does not always have a direct corrollation to light output. Its obvious that his tank in those pictures is EXTREMELY bright! But what I think the only real question is CAN you produce a fitting spectrum in relation to sunlight with LED? I think wattage should be removed from the debate all-together!

LED's are remarkable devices, its worth looking into what makes them "tick" for sheer interest. But again, I'm bias, I have worked with LED's a lot

Jim in santa barbara · 03/14/2004, 11:34 PM

Awesome, and thanks for the pic's, can you give a schematic of the wiring from the PS? Also did you mix output degree's of the lamps? Thanks

nanoguy · 03/15/2004, 02:10 AM

Any updated pics with water in the tank?

bluetropic · 03/15/2004, 07:56 AM

I agree with 5thtonbench, you can't compare LEDs to MH they are just too different. LEDs are super-bright, it is only a matter of finding the eight spectrum. Also notice a 250w MH puts almost as much heat in the room as a 200+watt heater, hmmm I wonder why? Could it be it is just not efficiant? LEDs are the basis of some lasers too, again that run off watch batteries.

sandisct · 03/15/2004, 08:06 AM

hey nanoguy... Wats the tank size you are showing below your name??? mine is about that size i think...

bluetropic · 03/15/2004, 08:23 AM

....finding the right spectrum....(typo)

sandisct · 03/15/2004, 10:13 AM

OHH NO!!!!

I accidently cause a crack at the bottom of the tank when i tried to tank the tank down but forgeting to remove the down pipe......arrggghhh... stupid mistake!!!! anyway i can mend the crack???

the crack is in the filter box. would it cause further crack when i add water in it???

Please help.... guess i got to hold it back for a few more days then....

sandisct · 03/15/2004, 10:15 AM

close up

03/14/2004, 06:49 PM	#26
Obi-dad Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CT Posts: 4,314	After re-reading my posts, I think I sounded too negative - don't get me wrong, I would love to have a reasonable number of LEDs be suitable for corals. But after looking into this a few years ago, I have my doubts. Time for some measurements with a cheap lux meter. __________________ Greg, member of ARKSC and CTARS Visit our CTARS club website by clicking my RC name then 'visit homepage' - and please support your LFS Current Tank Info: 75g mostly stonies. DIY LEDs (24 CW XP-G, 48 RB XR-E) on dwizum CAT4101 drivers, DIY Hydra controller, SSB, Korallin Ca Reactor, Euroreef skimmer

03/14/2004, 07:19 PM	#29
olemos Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 1,791	hey if this thing works it will save a ton of money across the years of owning a aquarium show us pics when it is setup __________________ ? Current Tank Info: 350 gl

03/14/2004, 07:38 PM	#30
bluetropic Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orillia,Ontario,Canada Posts: 260	I tried to respond earlier but this thing screwed up. Watts is a very poor way of measuring light. MH lose a HUGH amount of power to heat. As for a bad LED, if you divided it up into rows it should not be hard to find a dud. I realize LEDs are spectrum specific, but you could mix them at differant levels to acheive "sunlight". I myself would place the LEDs 1/8th inch apart. I wish I did have a lux meter. __________________ Allen Eastcott Current Tank Info: Live plants, Flamingos, Tetras, Corys and Barbs

03/14/2004, 07:41 PM	#31
greenbean36191 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 10,598	Wattage is more of a measurement of power consumption than light output, but we generally think higher wattage lighting is brighter. This isn't always true though. The way you measure effeciency also isn't a very good way. For example I could replace the element of a MH bulb with something like platinum and it might make less heat (so a higher percentage of the energy would be turned to light), but it would probably also make less light, but it would still be 400w of lighting. I think wattage is used to describe lighting because if you advertised a bulb as #PAR or #lux you don't have a very good idea of what kind of other hardware (ballast, sockets, wiring) is needed to run it. The simple solution is to group all of the bulbs that use common hardware together which just happens to group them by wattage. __________________ Some say the sun rises in the East. Some say it rises in the West. The truth must be somewhere in the middle. Current Tank Info: tore them down to move and haven't had the time or money to set them back up

03/14/2004, 08:11 PM	#34
bluetropic Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orillia,Ontario,Canada Posts: 260	Just type in LED (bulk, sale, supplier or whatever) in your explorer search, There are tons of places that sell 'em buy the roll. It should not be hard to find at all, just try you will soon be overwhelmed! __________________ Allen Eastcott Current Tank Info: Live plants, Flamingos, Tetras, Corys and Barbs

03/14/2004, 06:59 PM	#27
ONAGI Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NE OHIO Posts: 507	I really think that evaluating the effectiveness of LEDs simply in terms of wattage is a mistake. It's the light spectrum that matters not the wattage. The Kelvin, PAR and CRI is what will be most important in how useful the lighting is. This is also why people are wanting to see what a lux meter will read on the LEDS. Watts per gallon is a rule of thumb measurement people use in this hobby for thier tank needs. Power compacts typically have lower wattages than VHO's, but they put out comparitive or possibly better lighting as higher powered lights. I remember reading this in a post that really hashed out the terminology of wattage, Kelvin, PAR and CRI. Wattage was the least useful in evaluating light effectiveness.

03/14/2004, 07:11 PM	#28
MadTownMax ***erately knowledgable Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Appleton, WI Posts: 2,750 Blog Entries: 1	definately be nice to know what a lux or par meter says, If you can find a reef club near you someone might have a meter and could check out the readings. I have an 1 led moonlight in my tank and it casts great shimmer lines and is really bright.

03/14/2004, 07:59 PM	#32
ne pats#2 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Framingham Ma. Posts: 124	where can you buy these led lights? i would like to try this experiment also. i really love the look of shimmer lines but i do not need halides for my setup so this would be perfect.

03/14/2004, 08:10 PM	#33
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	wow 1 night away from RC and got so much response.... Will try to get the Lux meter asap.... a friend of mine got 1. so probably would try to take the measurement this 2 days... Will post the results once i got it.

03/14/2004, 08:12 PM	#35
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	BTW, what is the recommended lux reading for a proper reef tank?

03/14/2004, 09:15 PM	#37
bluetropic Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orillia,Ontario,Canada Posts: 260	I noticed the graphs are quite "spikey", you probably would get a similar effect by using LEDs. Natural sunlight is one "smooth" wave. So if MH can work, why not different LEDs mixed together? __________________ Allen Eastcott Current Tank Info: Live plants, Flamingos, Tetras, Corys and Barbs

03/14/2004, 10:30 PM	#38
emelton Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Patchogue,NY Posts: 1,097	Tagging __________________ My favorite RC post= "I will be watching you like a hawk and when you break the rules, you will be gone." Now, Sit UBU sit.. GOOD DOG!!! DA Current Tank Info: Building my house aroung my next tank

03/14/2004, 10:49 PM	#39
Reelfun20 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Pensacola, FL Posts: 48	me too...

03/14/2004, 10:57 PM	#40
Obi-dad Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CT Posts: 4,314	Anyone like to place a bet that 8W of LED is anywhere near close to the light output of a 250w MH? I have plenty of takers for the opposite side of that bet. __________________ Greg, member of ARKSC and CTARS Visit our CTARS club website by clicking my RC name then 'visit homepage' - and please support your LFS Current Tank Info: 75g mostly stonies. DIY LEDs (24 CW XP-G, 48 RB XR-E) on dwizum CAT4101 drivers, DIY Hydra controller, SSB, Korallin Ca Reactor, Euroreef skimmer

03/14/2004, 11:11 PM	#41
Erick504 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New orleans Posts: 63	tagging along

03/14/2004, 11:34 PM	#44
Jim in santa barbara Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 333	Awesome, and thanks for the pic's, can you give a schematic of the wiring from the PS? Also did you mix output degree's of the lamps? Thanks __________________ The investigation is going slowly because all the officials who came to investigate the initial incident are now dead- Ap news Stop trying to control everything and just let go. -Tyler Durden Current Tank Info: 40 aga zoos, stars, leathers, mated GSM , PC 65's , wet/dry/refugiums 5 - 15 gal frag/test tanks 20 gal FW Amzn 300 gal pond/aquagarden (6 yo feeders) 20 15's to set-up..lots of other various tubs and containers. Last edited by Jim in santa barbara; 03/15/2004 at 12:02 AM.

03/15/2004, 02:10 AM	#45
nanoguy OG Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Bay Area, Ca Posts: 1,897	Any updated pics with water in the tank? __________________ - JC

03/15/2004, 07:56 AM	#46
bluetropic Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orillia,Ontario,Canada Posts: 260	I agree with 5thtonbench, you can't compare LEDs to MH they are just too different. LEDs are super-bright, it is only a matter of finding the eight spectrum. Also notice a 250w MH puts almost as much heat in the room as a 200+watt heater, hmmm I wonder why? Could it be it is just not efficiant? LEDs are the basis of some lasers too, again that run off watch batteries. __________________ Allen Eastcott Current Tank Info: Live plants, Flamingos, Tetras, Corys and Barbs

03/15/2004, 08:06 AM	#47
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	hey nanoguy... Wats the tank size you are showing below your name??? mine is about that size i think...

03/15/2004, 08:23 AM	#48
bluetropic Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orillia,Ontario,Canada Posts: 260	....finding the right spectrum....(typo) __________________ Allen Eastcott Current Tank Info: Live plants, Flamingos, Tetras, Corys and Barbs

03/15/2004, 10:13 AM	#49
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	OHH NO!!!! I accidently cause a crack at the bottom of the tank when i tried to tank the tank down but forgeting to remove the down pipe......arrggghhh... stupid mistake!!!! anyway i can mend the crack??? the crack is in the filter box. would it cause further crack when i add water in it??? Please help.... guess i got to hold it back for a few more days then....

03/15/2004, 10:15 AM	#50
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	close up