Let's talk about water quality in an SPS tank.

[MiddletonMark]

And what would be `mystery X factors' that we can define?

D.O.M. /Organics would appear to be one.

I'd suggest Bacteria as well. As I would propose that different tanks have different bacterial levels, and in closed aquaria environment ... bacteria often are a dominant player. No idea how to discuss, compare this one; yet that doesn't mean it's not a player + likely relates to or stores compounds [nitrogen, phosphorus] that relate directly to water quality. Given their generally short lifespan, said nutrients are being cycled in and out of the water system.

Tests for Phosphate almost make it a mystery, but maybe not.

What other ones are out there?

It's good to have an idea of what other variables are playing, even if we can't test or directly control them. I'm sure ORP monitors tell an interesting always changing story of many variables [seems like pH does to a degree].

[JB NY]

Originally posted by AlgaeMan
Shouldn't ph be on the list?

I'll edit the fist post to include pH, forgot about that one

I feel pH should be between 8.0-8.3 with the smallest swing you can manage. Mine goes from about 8.15 to 8.30 on a normal 24 hr period.

You can have low pH in the 7.9 and 7.8 but ultimately I think you are best trying to keep it above 8.0.

[aquariumclown]

Originally posted by JB NY
I'll edit the fist post to include pH, forgot about that one

I feel pH should be between 8.0-8.3 with the smallest swing you can manage. Mine goes from about 8.15 to 8.30 on a normal 24 hr period.

You can have low pH in the 7.9 and 7.8 but ultimately I think you are best trying to keep it above 8.0.

This might be a dumb question but, how do you stabalize your PH? During the photoperiod the PH always goes up as we all know.

[JB NY]

Originally posted by aquariumclown
This might be a dumb question but, how do you stabalize your PH? During the photoperiod the PH always goes up as we all know.

High Alk will help stabilize pH. So will a refugium on a reverse daylight lighting schedual. Some people have swings of 7.8 - 8.2 or 8.3 that's a little much IMO. I think pH swings of .2 are good to work towards.

[Julio]

I think one of the best way to keep your water quality high is to have a high turn over of water, i do a 20% water change weekly and i also feed heavily, since i started doing this in Jan. the fish and coral have grown tremendously, more than i really wanted, i had to get rid of some fish that got too big for my tank as they were fraging the sps and not letting me do it.

[reefkeeper1]

For those of you keeping a tight lid on your water chemistry, what test kits are you using? I'm especially interested in the kits you guys are using for Nitrates, PO4, and Magnesium.

I really like the Salifert kits. I use them to test for Calcium, Alkalinity and Magnesium. I don't test for nitrates or phosphates since I don't have a problem with nuisance algae in my tank. I test pH with a Pinpoint pH controller, salinity with a Pinpoint salinity monitor and I check the temperature everytime I glance at the tank with the digital thermometer mounted on the wall behind the tank.

To be honest, I haven't tested with the Salifert kits for months. I watch for nuisance algae, and the growth and color of the corals to make sure water conditions are okay. I feel close observation of your corals on a daily basis is a good way of gauging your water conditions.

Recently, I noticed one of my green table corals in the back is bleaching a little in the tips since I changed from a flat to a parabolic reflector for my metal halide lamps. The bleaching seems to have stabilized and no other corals have been affected, so I'm not going to worry for now.

[Big E]

I would agree with the parameters listed. These seem to be what is mentioned in most reefkeeping texts. Nothing earth shattering, but what interested me was some of the comments.

While I have decided not to continue using Rowaphos, I am not sure we can lower phosphates to the necessary levels through RO/DI, water changes, detritus removal, macroalgae, not overfeeding etc.. Especially if we want to keep fish.

Tom, what do you consider necessary levels? We all/ or most get zero readings so are you referring to vivid colors? And why do you feel this is unattainable with the process you mention above?
Could it be we all tend to want a loaded tank with a large enough variety of fish & corals(the usual TOTM)? How bout a lighter load of fish & corals that better matches the size of tank & export system they are in? Or maybe the way we go about these tasks isn't maximizing them to their fullest benefits. Or the speed of which animals are added to a system sure would make a lot of parameters flucuate.



Joe,
Why is Cyano in the corners here or there okay?

I didn't want to take this post off topic but it looks to be already exhausted..............so when you move on to water movement & maintenance practices, bioload, for other threads, ect. this should get interesting. It would be great if you could continue these. Looks like you got a nice series going here. I think it will promote a lot more "outside the box" thinking.

[agiacosa]

Hi,

I understand what the params should be and why. How about the "hows". Exactly HOW do you keep these water parameters within your target range?

I've read a lot about "food things" floating in the water to feed coral. If you do that, how can water be crystal clear?

[MiddletonMark]

If you're wondering about feeding, I bet JB NY has one part of this series eventually coming up about that. This appears a series of discussions on different `sps tank' topics [a good idea].

If you want to talk about feeding now, there's some good threads on it, very different thoughts to search up. For starters, there's this discussion going on:
what's the best thing to feed sps's

Also I'd suggest checking out Eric Borneman's Coral Food series, this is part 1 of 7 [goes thru various kinds of foods, etc]
Food of the Reefs - Borneman
---

As for how to achieve these, esp. with the point raised above about how we do like to jam our tanks with bioload ... that depends I guess.

Attempting to balance importe with export would be the short answer. I'll leave it for wiser heads to answer the long one.

[Tom Berry]

Big E,

yes, keeping sps with vivid colors is a primary goal for me, and, I believe, many others on this forum. This seems to require levels of phosphates and nitrates (<0.013 ppm phosphates and <0.2 ppm nitrates are targets that I have seen) That are near or below the detection threshold of commonly available hobbyist test kits. There are more expensive kits that can detect lower levels.

A lower bioload can certainly make it easier to maintain these parameters, and some have gone this route. Many of us, however, do not have really large or multiple tanks, and wish to keep colorful fish and other creatures along with our colorful sps. That is why we are pursuing additional means of lowering these levels.

One method that appears to work well is the ZEOvit system developed in Germany. Rather than get into it here, I will refer you to these threads:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=1

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=384195

The first thread on the Advanced Topic forum is long and involved, but worth working your way through.

agiacosa,

on the reefs, there are all kinds of plankton floating around in the water, but the levels of various nutrients dissolved in the water are extremely low.

Tom

[JB NY]

And what would be `mystery X factors' that we can define?

D.O.M. /Organics would appear to be one.


I guess this falls into the all those untestable nutrients that we can have in our systems when all our parameters test as "perfect". Here is what I use as my gage to keeping nutrients levels as low as possible.

How long can you go without cleaning the front of your glass before you can notice it being dirty? I used to only be able to go 3-4 days and then it really needed to be cleaned. Since last August (10 months ago) I got more aggressive on my water quality, and in the past 8 months or so I can easily go 7 days without cleaning my glass and you can hardly even notice any buildup on the glass when I do clean it, which is now once a week.

As far as stuff being in the water column, I've got things floating around as well, but it shouldn't impede you're viewing of the tank (I use no filer socks or sponges to remove anything either).

Here is a picture (from today) looking down my tank, six feet long. I also have not cleaned the glass for 4 days in this picture, you can hardly, if at all, see any build up yet on the glass. And it's clear from one end to the other.



For those of you keeping a tight lid on your water chemistry, what test kits are you using? I'm especially interested in the kits you guys are using for Nitrates, PO4, and Magnesium.

I've had good luck with both Salifert and SeaChem test kits as well.

Why is Cyano in the corners here or there okay

Because almost every tank I have seen in person or on the boards seems to have at least a little. When I write a little, I mean a patch or two here and there. I have some too. But it should only be a little, meaning you have to look for it, not have it visible all over.

I would agree with the parameters listed. These seem to be what is mentioned in most reefkeeping texts.

But I don't think everyone keeps those levels. Keeping SPS and colorful healthy ones, is still a difficult thing to do. From the posts I see in this forum, I would say many people do not keep these levels in their tank. Most people have detectable nitrates, huge temperature swings, hair algae or other PO4 problems (from looking at pictures posted).

I understand what the params should be and why. How about the "hows". Exactly HOW do you keep these water parameters within your target range?

While I have decided not to continue using Rowaphos, I am not sure we can lower phosphates to the necessary levels through RO/DI, water changes, detritus removal, macroalgae, not overfeeding etc.. Especially if we want to keep fish.

Personally I think you can get the levels that are given above. As far as how to do it. The easiest and cheapest way is frequent water changes and carbon. That and aggressive skimming should be able to get most all your levels down as long as you do not stock too heavily with fish. Using a refugium helps a lot. I think many times people are too impatient to wait for the tank to take care of itself.

So what other things are you guys doing to keep your levels down? I'll post everything I do to keep my tank running healthy a little later this morning.

[schanz]

JB, wish I could keep my glass that clean. I've got to clean every other day.

I wonder how big a factor water volume plays here? Are the large tanks really easier?

I've been way too busy lately. I haven't had time to clean the skimmer, feed very much, trim the fuge, do water changes (2 mos?), change DI resin, etc. etc... Things are actually looking pretty good. The only thing I've tested in the last 3 weeks is calcium and it hasn't budged off 420 so I assume everything else is OK. Since the ony additives are a CA reactor, I assume things are relatively balanced.

It just goes to show, sometimes less is more. I did notice that polyp extension wasn't as good as it had been. I quickly discovered the problem: my powerheads and seio were pretty much grown over with coralline and that thick, brown encrusting algae stuff. After a good cleaning, things perked up a lot.

I have 6 fish in my 125 (Prple Tng, CB, Maroon Clown, 3 chromis) I guess the light bioload pays off.

[Big E]

Personally I think you can get the levels that are given above. As far as how to do it. The easiest and cheapest way is frequent water changes and carbon. That and aggressive skimming should be able to get most all your levels down as long as you do not stock too heavily with fish. Using a refugium helps a lot. I think many times people are too impatient to wait for the tank to take care of itself.

Joe, I couldn't agree more...........BUT, the quote above is kinda general. People see a tank like yours & they do all that & it doesn't work. Why? Maybe the % change is not enough or their defination of frequent water changes are different than yours. What more specifically is overskimming? Or under or overstocking? See what I'm gettin at?

I think the successful guys need to be asked more specific questions so each reefer can nail down a regime that works basing it off a proven formula. More numbers & things better defined would help alot. Normally this doesn't happen on these threads.

I'm experienced, but consider myself a noob with acros............3 years & have learned more what not to do than what's best.

I'm about halfway to a nice setup...colors & healthly corals.....& it's pretty simple, alot like what you mention, but I'm trying to nail specifics for better control.

Tom,
Same here...colors, overall health........I've been reading that Zeovit thread, but for me I don't consider it an option. Too costly but interesting. It sure seems the users follow a SPECIFIC & exact regime & I think that's the best part about it. Those guys have a plan or exact blueprint for success.......that's more than half the battle.

[JB NY]

Originally posted by schanz
JB, wish I could keep my glass that clean. I've got to clean every other day.

That's what I mean. Most people need to clean their glass every day or two. It's an easy way to see, literally, how good you water quality is. 5-7 days is where you want to be for high water quality. It's much easier than testing your water all the time.

It's not easy to get there. But once you do, good things will happen in your tank.

[MiddletonMark]

Joe, that's a great quickie reference. It ties into a whole lot of things going on, is fairly easy to keep track of ... great insight IMO.

A great addition to test-able parameters. Hints at stability, definitely requires low dissolved nutrients, and generally a sign of good conditions.

Does anyone monitor ORP? Does that seem useful to watch, predict anything [from practical experience]?

---
As for skimming/overskimming, stocking ... so much is `dependent on situation'. I really learn whenever Joe, or Mojo, or 64Ivy, or some of those I look to for inspiration describe their system ... yet size-wise, equipment-wise ... there's only so much I can `follow their regime' IMO.
Even with exactly the same equipment I'd suspect results vary. I understand the desire for a `game-plan' or even a couple - yet given the amount of unknowns, variance between exact setups/livestock/LR/etc.etc.etc .... IMO it's more important to look at all the parameters and figure how to effect those myself.

That's my take ... but unless you want to switch skimmers, run ozone, and do everything just exactly like someone else's setup ... IMO a better bit to learn the parameters, see how Joe here [and everyone else] achieves them ... and figure what works. Trying to follow an exact plan/rules will leave things like DSB's ... working for some, not for others.

Otherwise it's too easy to think that Ozone generator, or Phosphate media/chamber, or ____ new product will `make things right'. Not to say they won't help, but yet might not solve `my problem' causing imperfection in my tank [and distracts me with gadgets I think I need, instead of other ways to solve the problem]. I could be totally wrong though.

[Big E]

As for skimming/overskimming, stocking ... so much is `dependent on situation'. I really learn whenever Joe, or Mojo, or 64Ivy, or some of those I look to for inspiration describe their system ... yet size-wise, equipment-wise ... there's only so much I can `follow their regime' IMO.

Lol......you adjust to your size tank ect. By gameplan or regime I'm talking about guys like Gregt or Bomber........pretty specific & theres a plan to follow. You adjust it to your system.

As much as Garf gets bashed on RC they have a plan that works for them, another example.

It's when people deviate form the plan that it fails.......but I guess that's human nature to try to tweek.


It's not about following someone elses tank setup by using the same exact brand skimmer.......lol........it's about following a plan.

The huge number of variables is why you need a starting point for success......then adjust to your system over time. It's about reducing variables not adding to them.

I guess I'm not gettin my point across so I'll just close it out here & then next week I'll see a thread about a problem with all the exact parameters posted on the original thread will be in line yet the reefer is exasperated over his problem.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Big E
I guess I'm not gettin my point across so I'll just close it out here & then next week I'll see a thread about a problem with all the exact parameters posted on the original thread will be in line yet the reefer is exasperated over his problem.

No, I think you are explaining ok ... but let me explain where I'm coming from.

I had the pleasure to meet JB NY at IMAC, and we talked about a lot of things.

One such thing ... he has success with Ozone ... which benefits his tank. After talking to him, it was very hard not to be thinking `if I want a comparable tank, I better use Ozone; that's the problem with my tank!'. But yet I doubt he'd say that - suggesting that your idea is great ... if wasn't for idiots like me focusing on the equipment we don't have, the neato gadget ... and not realizing if I clean my skimmer more regularly, feed more/less/different ... I can get the same parameters and great tank.

I guess that's where I lie .. that it seems like there are multiple ways to get to the end result; some more useful in different situations, some potentially mis-applied to bad effect.

Anyway, I've been rambling too much on this thread ... time to shut up and learn

[JB NY]

I'm not sure I can tell you exactly how to achieve success. Mainly because your tank isn't my tank.

A 30 gallon SPS tank will need to be maintained different than my 280 gallon system.

A lot of what I do, is done to fit my schedule, living habits and what not. I can't tell you exactly what to do, because every tank is a little different. You might keep more fish than I, or less. You might have some softies in the tank, or maybe it's a BB tank (I have a DSB).

Actually I was hoping that more people who have strong SPS tanks with good coloration would jump in and offer their thoughts as well.

But, I really believe if all your levels are what we agreed to above and you can go days without cleaning the glass, water quality is not going to be your problem when trying to keep SPS.

But here is what I do to keep my water quality up.

Skimming. I'm not a fan of the light colored skimmate. I pull out a good 6-8 oz of dark (black coffee colored) skimmate a day. I clean my skimmer out every two weeks. I seem to get better performance out of my skimmer after about 3-4 days after cleaning, so I let it go two weeks between cleanings.

Water changes.
20-25% every two weeks. or 10% every week. Shipon and remove as much detritus as you can from the sump or any place else you can during the water change.

Water clarity.
Carbon.
I run 1 cup of carbon for every 100 gallons of water. I used to run it for a few days once a week. I now change it out every week, so I'm running it continually.
Ozone.
I run ozone 4 hours a day at a ratio of about 0.2mg per gallon. So I run my 200mg red sea ozone generator at 30% when running.

PO4 control
I run rowaphos/phosban, 500ml in a reserve flow chamber. I change it out every 4-6 months. I've been doing this for about 16 months.

I run 500ml of rowaphos/phosban as a third chamber of my calcium reactor and change this out whenever I change out the reactor media.

I dose kalk to help with pH and calcium levels.

I have a 55 gallon refugium that has chaetomorpha for nutrient export. I run it on a RDS to help stabilize pH. The tank is bare bottom and I siphon out any detritus during my water changes.

I have 280 lbs of live rock and a 4.5" DSB in the main tank to take care of any nitrates. I blow off my rock work with a turkey baster once a week to get any detritus into suspension.

Depending on your bioload and how heavily you feed. You would need to do more or less water changes IMO. Also if you just can't keep the nitrates down, chances are you have too may fish.

How's that Ed?

[Big E]

Awesome Joe......that's what I'm talkin' about.

[reefcam]

Originally posted by JB NY
How long can you go without cleaning the front of your glass before you can notice it being dirty? I used to only be able to go 3-4 days and then it really needed to be cleaned. Since last August (10 months ago) I got more aggressive on my water quality, and in the past 8 months or so I can easily go 7 days without cleaning my glass and you can hardly even notice any buildup on the glass when I do clean it, which is now once a week.

But wouldn't amount of lighting also cause an accelerated growth in algae? I have two tanks that are plumb together and my my tank with 4 x 400W MH and 6 x 6ft VHO bulbs gets a small dusting of algae on the glass every 2 - 3 days and my little boys tank that has only 2 x 36PC (and gets water from the main tanks overflow) only needs cleaning every 10 days.

But I clean the glass every day or two just to prevent coralline algae from building up.

Just my thought.

As far as small cyano patches, I get them where water flow is very low in certain spots. Typically readjusting my flow will remove the patches from occuring again.

BTW, I use Salifert test kits, but have heard there's a new test kit from Merc (?) from Steve Weast, that will give a better accuracy.

[reefcam]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
No, I think you are explaining ok ... but let me explain where I'm coming from.

I had the pleasure to meet JB NY at IMAC, and we talked about a lot of things.

One such thing ... he has success with Ozone ... which benefits his tank. After talking to him, it was very hard not to be thinking `if I want a comparable tank, I better use Ozone; that's the problem with my tank!'. But yet I doubt he'd say that - suggesting that your idea is great ... if wasn't for idiots like me focusing on the equipment we don't have, the neato gadget ... and not realizing if I clean my skimmer more regularly, feed more/less/different ... I can get the same parameters and great tank.

Joe, I was wondering if you see any difference in tank water quality if you stop using Ozone?

Jim

[John R]

You're tank looks great. I have one thing to ask though (JB NY). Most refugia based tanks I've seen (almost all of them), when looking at them length-wise, seem to have a cloudy look to them. As evidenced in your photo, you don't have this "problem". If you are running a refugium, how are you avoiding this?

Do you think this (having a refugium) can contribute to water quality issues? Both good and bad?

John R.

[JB NY]

Originally posted by reefcam
But wouldn't amount of lighting also cause an accelerated growth in algae? I have two tanks that are plumb together and my my tank with 4 x 400W MH and 6 x 6ft VHO bulbs gets a small dusting of algae on the glass every 2 - 3 days and my little boys tank that has only 2 x 36PC (and gets water from the main tanks overflow) only needs cleaning every 10 days.

I run 3 x 250 watt MH and 3 x 140 watt VHO. 9 hrs for MH and 13 for VHO. I clean once a week. I'll take a picture of my refugium that I haven't cleaned the glass for at least 6 weeks, it's almost crystal clear as well, but I'm only running 1 x 96 watt 6500K PC lamp over it.

Truthfully, I used to think people were making it up about being able to go 5-7 days with out cleaning the glass.

Joe, I was wondering if you see any difference in tank water quality if you stop using Ozone?


I bet I would. But more on the lines of less clarity from my water.

[reefcam]

I was curious on the use of Ozone as I've seen good success with them and see that you have a great looking tank.

Ozone has always been a contraversy for in home and I'm also concern as well.

Do you run carbon on your tank? If so how often and long?

-------------

I run my MH for 9 hrs and VHO for 12 hrs and during the summer, the tank gets the evening Sun hitting it directly. I notice the corals really like it when the sun hits the tank in the evening.
(Yes we get sun in Oregon... sheshh ).

[JB NY]

Originally posted by John R
You're tank looks great. I have one thing to ask though (JB NY). Most refugia based tanks I've seen (almost all of them), when looking at them length-wise, seem to have a cloudy look to them. As evidenced in your photo, you don't have this "problem". If you are running a refugium, how are you avoiding this?

Do you think this (having a refugium) can contribute to water quality issues? Both good and bad?

John R.

I only have Chaetomorpha in my refugium. In February I re-did my plumbing as well as my refugium. I ripped out all the caulerpa and went with only chaetomorpha. But even when I did have caulerpa in the tank I did not have any clouding of the tank, unless the caulerpa went sexual on me

I belive that a well thought out refugium can help tremendously with water quality. But I am now a firm believer in not putting any caulerpa in a tank, esp an SPS tank as the toxins produced by caulerpa can been detrimental to Acroporids. Also, the potential to go sexual, IMO, can sometimes cause more harm than good. Macro algae such as Chaetomorpha and Gracilaria are much better substitutes that will cause no harm to the tank.

Also, I use my refugium for nutrient export only. I don't try and cultivate pods or anything (although there are tons of them in there anyway) in it, just macro algae for nutrient export. I also believe in lots of flow in the refugium, and allowing the top layer of water in the refugium to flow to the overflow.