The Great Seahorse Tank

[RamManOK]

I figured you did but had to give you a hard time

[Russ Braaten]

Travis, just how do you plan on attaching the over-flow to the bottom of the tank?

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by dugg
Travis, if you are going to be putting a cement bottom in the tank, the 1/4 will be just fine, as it will take any hits from falling objects instead of the glass. I would highly recommend the cement bottom. It should be poured to be even with the bottom brace. Looks like it's going to be sweet when it's done.

&

Also, after looking at what you have going here, i would recommend that you start by doing the cement work on the overflow before you put it in the tank, then place it in and pour the floor around it to hold it in place. Then seal it with a bead of silicone from the inside, You don't have much room to work there, and it will be very difficult forming the shapes you want with it inside the tank. Leave the bottom 1 inch of the overflow uncovered with the cement, to make it easier to seal the overflow in place when you install it. The floor will cover the 1 inch gap up when it gets poured in.

Originally posted by Russ Braaten
Travis, just how do you plan on attaching the over-flow to the bottom of the tank?

Russ and Doug, that is the plan, man. I was going to shape the main column/overflow outside of the tank. I was going to see how well cement stuck to PVC first. If it did, then I was going to do the PVC with pure DIY rock. If not, it will get covered with that foam that Doug and Wayne used for their tanks. I was going to place a decent amount of base rock in the DIY rock for added filtration (over time of course) since there won't be much live rock to start with. So essentially the overflow will be "glued" by foam and "wedged" between the glass with more cement. I'm not going to work on rock structure until I can find the best way to make the most porous rock that I can. So far rock salt and portland cement isn't bad.

On a side note, me and Sonya have worked out a plan for the Stand and Canopy. I will try to sketch up a drawing sometime to show what it will look like. We're thinking it will look kind of like a lighthouse. In fact, we almost designed it around a lighthouse.

[luvabunny]

Again Travis, I know nothing about the plumbing mechanics of a tank, but isn't that 6" piece of pipe taking up an awful lot of space in a 20 gal tank? And you're going to pour cement on the bottom and around the sides of the pipe to make shapes?

IMHO - you're going to be squeezing a pair of erectus in that tank. 20 gallons is a minimum requirement for that size species, and it appears you have lessened that by quite a bit. Also, baby seahorses can (and will) go thru the teeth you have drilled in the overflow. Just something to think about if you're dead set on keeping seahorses in that tank.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Yes, that was a large concern about the tank. The volume of water lossed. But you can think of it this way, it would be not much different than building a column of live rock. The 6" Overflow was the only thing that would fit both bulkheads (5" would have worked, but I could only find 6". I don't even know if they make 5"), but it will also be hollow only displacing a little bit of water. The rock will be rather dense but displace about as much water as a solid column formation because the DIY rock might only be a few inches thick at most. So all in all with water displacement factored in it will be just about as much swimming room as a live rock stocked tank. But because the tank is so small in the first place and the goal is to obtain a pair, the addition of a large refugium for food and "chemical filtering" via more algae and a skimmer in there too will hopefully add a little water volume to increase dilution. I'm not worried much about babies and the overflow. I don't know if I even have the means of properly raising them yet. If I was able to raise them though, I would put netting in the overflow to catch them.

Overall, my biggest concern (and yours, too) is overall swimming room. I believe this will be falsely achieved by the fact that they have to swim around rather then back and forth and it increases "upward" activity. I believe the tank will work well. We will most likely start out with one seahorse to test and because of cost and if the seahorse is happy, healthy and swimming/excerising well we will try a second. If the single seahorse ends up not doing well, we will just have to increase the flow on the tank and turn it into a reef

[Travis L. Stevens]

Here is a doodle of what we are going to try to get the complete setup to look like The power cords for everything under the tank will be run along the floor. The power cords to the lighting will be threaded down one of the "frames" on the corner of the tank that will purposely be left hollow to join the other cords underneath the sump so that there are no cords hanging from the top and all of them will be hidden. I'm not too sure how we will do doors though. I was thinking doors on every side for easy access everywhere.

[captbunzo]

Nice pic - what did you make that in?

[Travis L. Stevens]

CorelDraw 12...It took a while because I had to freehand it. It's not a CAD program or anything. Just pure skill

[Russ Braaten]

You will have a major leak problem if you use that system. The water will seep into the overflow and the overflow may just topple over.

Use the tanks strength and use two pieces of glass and make a pie shape overflow with the third side being the glass side of the tank.

silicone glass to glass for a good bong. You can then glue any rock shapes uo the overflow to have a similar design but give the horses a larger area to swim.

[Travis L. Stevens]

You lost me there, Russ. Are you saying ditch the center overflow and make it on the side?

[Russ Braaten]

yup

Unless you are having it in the center of the room it will not hurt the "look"

[Travis L. Stevens]

Ah, I see now. The idea was to have it in the center of a room though.

[luvabunny]

Again, playing devil's advocate here - seahorses don't need any encouragement to swim "upward." They are very vertically inclined. In fact, breeding cannot and will not take place without sufficient upward area for the female to deposit eggs in the male's pouch. As far as "catching" the babies in netting in the overflow - all you will do is drown them. Seahorses (especially babies) are not strong swimmers, and will not be able to swim away from the flow going into the overflow. They will end up pinned against the netting.

Another point, when I said 20 gals was the minimum sized seahorse tank for a pair of erectus, I was not considering having heaping loads of rock in the tank also. That is for a reef tank. Seahorses generally do quite well with nothing more than a sand bottom and lots of caulerpa. That's how they live in the wild. You won't find them in the rocky reef areas. If you are going to have water displacement, whether due to several pounds of LR, or a 6" PVC pipe, you really should start out with more than the minimum requirement.

Travis, I think the tank will look beautiful when you get it finished, but I don't think it is going to end up being a good seahorse tank. I only try to steer you away now, before all the money is spent, because horses don't take to stress very well, and I'd hate to see you throw that much money away on something that will just die. I can see this tank as an awesome coral reef tank, but maybe you should give putting seahorses in it another thought.....or just maybe start looking into a smaller species.

Sorry - and just so that you know - my 4 erectus (2 pairs from the same lady you are getting yours from) are in a 45 gal hex. My 5 reidi are in a 55 gal tank. As with everything in reefing, the bigger the better.

[Russ Braaten]

Than think of a better way to glue the overflow to the bottom. Foam will not hold. There is a glue from Lock Plumbing that is E-5001 which is a great glue that is safe when cured. It is very think and sticks like crazy to both glass and PVC

It is about $5 a tube and you need a caulking gun to use it.

[69vette]

Originally posted by luvabunny
when I said 20 gals was the minimum sized seahorse tank for a pair of erectus,

How big do these seahorses get?

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by 69vette
How big do these seahorses get?

5"-6"

luvabunny, I don't know what I was thinking though. For some reason I was thinking that they were H. reidi and not H. erectus.

How well do seahorses do alone?

[luvabunny]

You're a little on the short side for a full grown erectus. Many of them attain a crown to tail tip length of 7"-8". Reidi can attain a length of 10"-11." My oldest adult male is very close to 11."

I think I know where you're going with the "alone" question, and although they will "live" alone, they are very social and do much better with two or more. They are very interactive with each other, especially if you get a pair.
Also, do you really want to go to all the expense and trouble for this tank for 1 fish?

[luvabunny]

Travis,
There are some smaller species which would do very well in your tank. Although they are not available locally like the erectus are, they might be something to think about. I know there is a lady on seahorse.org who has CB capensis available, but they may be a cold water species. Fuscus are also a wonderful option, and I believe Ocean Rider is going to have them available soon. They are approx 4" full grown. You could probably get 2 pair of those.

If you really want the erectus from Karen, get a pair that are young and much smaller. I don't know if seahorses follow the old standard that they will only grow to the size of their container, but at least they will start out small and hopefully grow slowly.

[aquaman67]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
I don't think it will be too much. I want the tank to be easily converted to any other type of saltwater tank (Softies, SPS, etc) so I am leaving it at 3/4" PVC. The goal is to get something like a Mag 5 or smaller to power up the middle and split four ways at the top. Even if the flow is a little bit too strong, I'll have the LocLine at the ends of the 5-Way Cross to direct flow somewhere to be difused (IE, at a rock or the tank wall.)

With the help of the RC Calculator, a Mag 5 will push it 5 feet up with a few odds and ends in plumbing such as a ball valve to have a flow rate of 228 gph, then you can expect about 57 gph coming out of each return line.

Hey Travis,

First, love the tank idea!

I just set up a tank using a Mag 9.5 for a return pump.

To get 950 GPH from it, you have to use 1.5 inch pipe for the discharge. If you use smaller pipe, you will increase the head pressure and get much less than 950 gallons per hour. One inch pipe cuts the flow rate down to about 700 gallons per hour at six feet.

I'm sure the Mag 5 is the same, it may not need 1.5 inch pipe, but if you are using 3/4 for your return, you might be getting much less than you think. I'd hate for you to have to buy two pumps.

Maybe drop an e-mail and ask what size discharge they recommed for the Mag 5. You might have to step up to a Mag 7 or so.

Another idea that I found here and used was to plumb a tee into the return line under the tank. Put a ball valve on it and have the end empty back into the sump. That way, you can adjust how much water goes into the tank without restricting the pump.

If you're getting too much flow, open the valve on the teed line a little. Some water will just recirculate back into the sump.

Good luck!

[Travis L. Stevens]

So you would suggest captive bred (Endangered in wild) Hippocampus capensis (Knysna seahorse) that grows 12.1 cm (4 3/4") and Hippocampus fuscus (Sea pony) that grows 14.4 cm (5 2/3")? I just want to make sure that we are on the right track Those measurements our from fishbase.org. I'm guessing that is the full grown size and not the average aquarium adult size.

I was definitely hoping to get them (whichever species I get) small so we can watch them grow and mature.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by aquaman67
Hey Travis,

First, love the tank idea!

I just set up a tank using a Mag 9.5 for a return pump.

To get 950 GPH from it, you have to use 1.5 inch pipe for the discharge. If you use smaller pipe, you will increase the head pressure and get much less than 950 gallons per hour. One inch pipe cuts the flow rate down to about 700 gallons per hour at six feet.

I'm sure the Mag 5 is the same, it may not need 1.5 inch pipe, but if you are using 3/4 for your return, you might be getting much less than you think. I'd hate for you to have to buy two pumps.

Maybe drop an e-mail and ask what size discharge they recommed for the Mag 5. You might have to step up to a Mag 7 or so.

Another idea that I found here and used was to plumb a tee into the return line under the tank. Put a ball valve on it and have the end empty back into the sump. That way, you can adjust how much water goes into the tank without restricting the pump.

If you're getting too much flow, open the valve on the teed line a little. Some water will just recirculate back into the sump.

Good luck!

Actually, the plumbing that I currectly have for the return is kind of wierd. The outlet size is actually a 1/2" on the Mag5. So I am going to go from pump->1/2" to 3/4" fitting->3/4" PVC->3/4" Bulkhead->3/4" to 1" fitting-> 1" PVC->1" 5-Way Cross-> 4x 1" to 3/4" FTP fitting-> 4x 3/4" LocLine "starters"-> 4x 3/4" LocLine

I hope that helps explain my wierd return set up. The reason I chose the 3/4" bulkhead/pipe is because the You can go all the way up to a Mag18 (1800 gph) with a 3/4" pipe. Obviously you won't need that much flow in a 20g hex though, but the option to upgrade will be easily converted now. The reason I went from 3/4" to 1" inside the tank is because I can only find 1" 5-Way crosses, plus this will reduce a little bit of head pressure. The reason I went back down to 3/4" LocLine is because I couldn't find 1" LocLine.

The calculations that I provided for the Mag5 return was with a 3/4" vertical pump of 5ft with one ball valve and 4 elbows (to me 4 elbows = 1 5-Way Cross for this purpose). I presume that the RC head loss calculator is accurate. So I am expecting the flow given above or just a hair more because 20"+ of vertical plumbing is 1" pipe.

I found out the idea of the ball valve shortly after I made the first initial sketches. So they tank sketch I did of how the hex will be plumbed is a little off. But thank you for bringing that up.

Edit: I also have a Mag5 already set up as the return in my 29g tank. It goes into a spray bar at the top and provides great flow that isn't too much. I'm guessing the flow from the 5-Way Cross will be very similar to the spray bar on my 29g You can see the effectiveness of the spray bar return on it here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=682697 Note - look at the surface disturbance on the last picture. Now imagine about a third of that since there is a MJ 1200 on the back right that you can't see aimed somewhat at the top of the water and the front left MJ 1200 with the Hydor Flo just shot up at the top of the water.

[luvabunny]

Those were just 2 options I thought you might look into, and BTW, I've never seen nor heard of a fuscus reaching 5 2/3".
There are other small species of seahorses, I just happened to know that those were either already available as CB, or soon would be.

If you get any CB horse, it will probably be young, thus smaller, so you could watch it grow and mature, but be aware that I know of no one who lets them go before 5-6 months old, and mostly grown. While they don't have to be weaned, it does take some time to train them to eat frozen well, and most breeders who put in the time and effort to raise them are going to make sure they are getting along very well before selling them.

There is a species list on www.seahorse.org that, altho very incomplete, lists the most readily available seahorses. Be aware that h. reidi, h. whitei, and h. abdominalis are fairly large horses - barbs, tigertails, h. erectus, and h. kuda are all about the same size, then you get down into h. capensis, h. spinossimus (sp?) and h. fuscus sized horses. There are others, but I'm not that familiar with them.
There are several species of dwarf seahorses - I believe h. zosterae is the only one readily available - but they are much too small for your tank, and eat only BBS, not frozen mysis.
Several species of seahorse are cold water only. That is the case with h. abdominalis and I believe h. capensis. This means the necessity of a chiller. You will just have the check into the species you are interested in to see what it's requirements are.

[Travis L. Stevens]

That works for me. Temperature isn't much of a problem. Obviously going down to the 50s will be, but if it needs to be in cooler water, than that is fine. Since this is a seahorse tank, I can work around the needs of the species.

[cj_basser]

any updates on this project?

I am looking to build the same exact type of setup to put a pair or sea horses in as well.

[Travis L. Stevens]

I'm afraid not. I'm in the process of saving enough money for a Metal Halide for my main display to get rid of (or use as supplements) my PCs. Once that is done, I should be buying the replacement bottom.

I guess as a slight update, I have decided I will go with 1/4" non-tempered glass for the bottom. I'm just going to brace it with a solid piece of wood for it to sit on instead of an open bottom like most stands.