For those considering a generator - or Not! - Page 2

NewSaltyReefer · 01/18/2006, 11:39 AM

What about one of those UPS (uninteruptible power supplies) for a computer...has anyone used one of those?

jeffbrig · 01/18/2006, 11:48 AM

Check out this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=753266

Yes, I have UPS's in addition to my generator. Different items for different types of power problems. UPS = short term, generator = long outage.

NewSaltyReefer · 01/18/2006, 12:10 PM

Thanks!!

davidgottlieb · 01/18/2006, 12:38 PM

Yeah. Before you go giving that kind of advice, please give the warnings as well. MAKE SURE YOU TURN OFF YOUR MAIN before you turn on the switch that goes to your 220 plug.
In other words, if you turn on your generator and your neighbors lights come on, you're probably in deep sh$%. They sell switches now that keep you from messing up. Either your 220 plug switch is on or your main is on. You can't have both on at the same time. That will keep you from killing someone and going to jail.

Loralie · 01/18/2006, 02:12 PM

I have on that runs all three tanks and some of the household stuff and it is the best thing I have purchased. I debated on either a calcium reactor or generator, my husband said generator, and it was the best decision. I live in MN and we have the ice/snow problem too. The one decision I never second guessed

PRC · 01/18/2006, 02:19 PM

A generator was one of the better investments I've ever made. $500 for 5500W, runs the tank, refrigerator a few lights and an AC unit. All are plugged directly into the generator.
Please DO NOT backfeed directly into your house wiring. I honestly don't believe that someone would offer that advice. It's not only illegal but also very dangerous. You could easily kill someone by doing this improperly or by simply forgetting to throw a switch, is it really worth the risk? If you want power to your whole house have an electrician install a real transfer switch.

Pandora · 01/18/2006, 02:21 PM

Having lost 2 tanks to power outtages (one outtage which lasted over a week, one which lasted only 3 days, but everything was dead by the end), I have to agree on the devastating loss. Not only financially... thousands of dollars worth of livestock; but it's just heartbreaking to see all the love & time invested, all the long hours of careful adjustment of trace elements & pH in the hopes of seeing one more polyp on your frag, go down the drain overnight. I bought a $200 portable generator off of eBay (after trying a portable car battery recharger/jumper, but even a small mag pump would always overload it; and the battery powered air pump doesn't support the tank for that long, and always has problems when I most need it). I guess it just figures... a year goes by and no problems.

But it does give peace of mind now. It only takes one of these incidents to change how you think!

Another suggestion for those who can't afford them (or live in buildings that prohibit them... it's covered on my balcony, but technically, I'm not supposed to use these). Join your local reef club. If it's anything like mine, you'll have people who are kind enough to temporarily house your livestock during outtages, until you get back on your feet. Wish I knew that before I had to go day by day watching everything except my damsel die in a putrid soup of decay.... I am sure this fish can live in toilet water now.

davidgottlieb · 01/18/2006, 02:52 PM

Backfeeding power into your house is not illegal. If you kill or hurt someone and they catch you, they'll lock you up for man slaughter.
A transfer switch does exactly what you have to do it just does it for you. It can fail just like you can. They do have safety mechanisms now that will keep you from making an oops which I am all for.

jeffbrig · 01/18/2006, 03:24 PM

At its root, a transfer switch is a simple DPDT switch, albeit a large one that can carry a lot of current. The likelihood of that mechanically failing such that the two inputs (generator vs. power line) are shorted together is so small as to be completely ignored.

Morgandy · 01/18/2006, 03:38 PM

Our generator, LIFE SAVING as it is, is deafening loud...do any of you ever get neighbors in the middle of the night who complain by chance? My neighbors are awesome, but sometimes I feel so guilty keeping it on due to the noise. Just curious about others..

JimR · 01/18/2006, 03:54 PM

We just had an ice storm and power went out at 6am this morning. Luckly, I have a Generac 7500/12500watt electric start.
I have a 30amp 220v twist lock outlet right under my outside service box. I flip off the mains, and flip on the generator outlet. Have a special male to male cord that locks into the gen 30amp 220, then to the outside outlet.

You can back feed from a house outlet, just be careful. Only problem, that will only run 50% of your house, sense your 110 outlet is only one leg of the box. You shouldnt worry to much about over running the 15amp outlet, because the genny 110 outlet your running off of should be a 15amp curcuit also. The genny outlet would throw a breaker before you cause fire damage to the house wiring ( unless your in a super old house ). Either way, just dont sleep when your back feeding electricity, and make sure to turn the mains off BEFORE you plug the genny in, and make sure the genny is off and unplugged before you turn your mains back on.

PRC · 01/18/2006, 04:51 PM

I usually turn mine off at night, since it is a cheapo (deafening) model, and run my tank on batteries. One of my neighbors has a little Honda that's only about 2kW but it's amazingly quiet. Unfortunately I thik it cost about $1000 though.

scunan · 01/18/2006, 04:57 PM

My tank is running on a generator right now here in maine, I have not had power for over three hours now. Oh yeah i hokked up the computer too lol

pfish · 01/18/2006, 05:01 PM

I put in a 12 kw natural gas fired unit in, made by kholler. It automatically switches when it senses the power going down and switches back when the power comes back. Once a week it self tests.
It switches so fast that I don't even have to set the clocks. It powers the whole house and is wired into the main fuse box.
$8,500 installed, sounds like a lot but I feel it is worth it to save my 240 gal reef with all the time and money I have into that, plus it's pretty convenient for the rest of the house.

unsane · 01/18/2006, 05:22 PM

If you pull the meter base you should be able to back feed worry free correct?

mike89t · 01/18/2006, 05:29 PM

My dad just brought me his 300W Honda generator that he never uses anymore. Should be enough to keep the water circulating and a small heater on! This thing is ultra quiet!

AZDesertRat · 01/18/2006, 05:33 PM

Not correct.As I stated before you are still bonded or grounded to the power grid. If you are out of phase or polarity you could still backfeed onto the power grid.
It is illegal in all the utilities I know of to backfeed your home with out properly installed and inspected transfer switch.

davidgottlieb · 01/19/2006, 11:18 AM

Ok. So even if you have a transfer switch you still have to tell that transfer switch to transfer right?

conda · 01/19/2006, 11:38 AM

My setup is like JimR described. I have a twist lock box that takes the power into a subpanel. This sub panel has six switches with three settings-Main, Off, and Gen. When the power is on, these six switches are in the Main setting receiving power from the main power source. When the power is off and using the generator, I need to switch them to the Gen setting. This directly feeds each circuit. No back feeding here. When the power comes back on, those circuits I have set to Gen get no main power until I switch them back.

jeffbrig · 01/19/2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by avansickle
Our generator, LIFE SAVING as it is, is deafening loud...do any of you ever get neighbors in the middle of the night who complain by chance? My neighbors are awesome, but sometimes I feel so guilty keeping it on due to the noise. Just curious about others..

No qualms here about running 24/7, but my generator isn't what I would call deafening (it's Honda-powered). Also, if you can help other people out, there's going to be a lot less resentment. I ran a cord to 2 of my neighbors so they could keep their fridge and a light on. Since the generator was running overnight, a few other neighbors would come by in the morning with a coffee maker and brew a pot using the spare outlet. I charged electric razors, cell phones, batteries, etc. We did this for 6 days, and no one ever complained.

jeffbrig · 01/19/2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidgottlieb
Ok. So even if you have a transfer switch you still have to tell that transfer switch to transfer right?

Well, yes and no. With a manual transfer switch it's as you described. There are also some fancy automatic transfer switches out there. When combined with an electric start generator these can crank the generator and then switch over to backup power on their own.

davidgottlieb · 01/19/2006, 12:33 PM

Yeah. See that's like $7,000 right there. I don't see any reason in buying a manual transfer switch when it's going to take the same effort in flipping off the main.

PRC · 01/19/2006, 12:49 PM

I think jeffbrig explained the transfer switch pretty well but there still seems to be some confusion. Basically, with a transfer switch (manual or automatic) your house can be connected to the utility OR the generator but never to both at the same time. It's a function of how the switch operates rather than being a function of whether or not you remember to flip the switch. If you don't flip the switch you don't get any power from your generator.
While backfeeding may not be illegal in all places, it is most certainly against code to backfeed without an approved transfer switch. Which means, besides the danger of killing someone, if your house burns down the insurance company will wish you good luck instead of writing you a check.

davidgottlieb · 01/19/2006, 01:27 PM

Ok. How would one catch their house on fire by not using a transfer switch?

AZDesertRat · 01/19/2006, 02:49 PM

Just like I explained before. Even when your breaker is open you are still connected to the utility. You have 3 or 4 wires which include the grounding, a common and two seperate 120V corcuits which make up the 240V side. The breakers only disconnect to hot or load side but not the common or ground side so you still have a physical connection to the utility. If your polarity is not the same as the utilities you run the risk of blowing something up or electrocuting someone. By the same token when they heat their system back up they can send out of phase juice to your generator possibly blowing it up. A transfer switch either auto or manual is the only way to safely hook up to your entire house, otherwise just use extension cords to run certain things.

01/18/2006, 11:39 AM	#26
NewSaltyReefer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 96	What about one of those UPS (uninteruptible power supplies) for a computer...has anyone used one of those? __________________ Please can I upgrade my tank...PLEASE...PRETTY PLEASE!! Current Tank Info: 29g Reef

01/18/2006, 11:48 AM	#27
jeffbrig Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 5,548	Check out this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=753266 Yes, I have UPS's in addition to my generator. Different items for different types of power problems. UPS = short term, generator = long outage. __________________ Beware the power of stupid people in large groups..... Current Tank Info: formerly 250g room divider

01/18/2006, 12:10 PM	#28
NewSaltyReefer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 96	Thanks!! __________________ Please can I upgrade my tank...PLEASE...PRETTY PLEASE!! Current Tank Info: 29g Reef

01/18/2006, 12:38 PM	#29
davidgottlieb Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 647	Yeah. Before you go giving that kind of advice, please give the warnings as well. MAKE SURE YOU TURN OFF YOUR MAIN before you turn on the switch that goes to your 220 plug. In other words, if you turn on your generator and your neighbors lights come on, you're probably in deep sh$%. They sell switches now that keep you from messing up. Either your 220 plug switch is on or your main is on. You can't have both on at the same time. That will keep you from killing someone and going to jail. __________________ View Everything About My Reef At - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx Current Tank Info: View Everything About My Tank Here - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx

01/18/2006, 02:21 PM	#32
Pandora Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland near DC Posts: 1,706	Having lost 2 tanks to power outtages (one outtage which lasted over a week, one which lasted only 3 days, but everything was dead by the end), I have to agree on the devastating loss. Not only financially... thousands of dollars worth of livestock; but it's just heartbreaking to see all the love & time invested, all the long hours of careful adjustment of trace elements & pH in the hopes of seeing one more polyp on your frag, go down the drain overnight. I bought a $200 portable generator off of eBay (after trying a portable car battery recharger/jumper, but even a small mag pump would always overload it; and the battery powered air pump doesn't support the tank for that long, and always has problems when I most need it). I guess it just figures... a year goes by and no problems. But it does give peace of mind now. It only takes one of these incidents to change how you think! Another suggestion for those who can't afford them (or live in buildings that prohibit them... it's covered on my balcony, but technically, I'm not supposed to use these). Join your local reef club. If it's anything like mine, you'll have people who are kind enough to temporarily house your livestock during outtages, until you get back on your feet. Wish I knew that before I had to go day by day watching everything except my damsel die in a putrid soup of decay.... I am sure this fish can live in toilet water now. __________________ Where are we going... And why am I in this handbasket? Current Tank Info: 75gal reef tank, 30 gal octopus tank, Other: 75gal planted Amazon tank

01/18/2006, 02:12 PM	#30
Loralie Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: minnesota Posts: 568	I have on that runs all three tanks and some of the household stuff and it is the best thing I have purchased. I debated on either a calcium reactor or generator, my husband said generator, and it was the best decision. I live in MN and we have the ice/snow problem too. The one decision I never second guessed

01/18/2006, 02:19 PM	#31
PRC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 708	A generator was one of the better investments I've ever made. $500 for 5500W, runs the tank, refrigerator a few lights and an AC unit. All are plugged directly into the generator. Please DO NOT backfeed directly into your house wiring. I honestly don't believe that someone would offer that advice. It's not only illegal but also very dangerous. You could easily kill someone by doing this improperly or by simply forgetting to throw a switch, is it really worth the risk? If you want power to your whole house have an electrician install a real transfer switch.

01/18/2006, 02:52 PM	#33
davidgottlieb Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 647	Backfeeding power into your house is not illegal. If you kill or hurt someone and they catch you, they'll lock you up for man slaughter. A transfer switch does exactly what you have to do it just does it for you. It can fail just like you can. They do have safety mechanisms now that will keep you from making an oops which I am all for. __________________ View Everything About My Reef At - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx Current Tank Info: View Everything About My Tank Here - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx

01/18/2006, 03:24 PM	#34
jeffbrig Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 5,548	At its root, a transfer switch is a simple DPDT switch, albeit a large one that can carry a lot of current. The likelihood of that mechanically failing such that the two inputs (generator vs. power line) are shorted together is so small as to be completely ignored. __________________ Beware the power of stupid people in large groups..... Current Tank Info: formerly 250g room divider

01/18/2006, 03:38 PM	#35
Morgandy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 1,173	Our generator, LIFE SAVING as it is, is deafening loud...do any of you ever get neighbors in the middle of the night who complain by chance? My neighbors are awesome, but sometimes I feel so guilty keeping it on due to the noise. Just curious about others.. __________________ Amy. Current Tank Info: Numerous past tanks (down to nano now)

01/18/2006, 03:54 PM	#36
JimR Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mid Michigan Posts: 247	We just had an ice storm and power went out at 6am this morning. Luckly, I have a Generac 7500/12500watt electric start. I have a 30amp 220v twist lock outlet right under my outside service box. I flip off the mains, and flip on the generator outlet. Have a special male to male cord that locks into the gen 30amp 220, then to the outside outlet. You can back feed from a house outlet, just be careful. Only problem, that will only run 50% of your house, sense your 110 outlet is only one leg of the box. You shouldnt worry to much about over running the 15amp outlet, because the genny 110 outlet your running off of should be a 15amp curcuit also. The genny outlet would throw a breaker before you cause fire damage to the house wiring ( unless your in a super old house ). Either way, just dont sleep when your back feeding electricity, and make sure to turn the mains off BEFORE you plug the genny in, and make sure the genny is off and unplugged before you turn your mains back on.

01/18/2006, 04:51 PM	#37
PRC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 708	I usually turn mine off at night, since it is a cheapo (deafening) model, and run my tank on batteries. One of my neighbors has a little Honda that's only about 2kW but it's amazingly quiet. Unfortunately I thik it cost about $1000 though.

01/18/2006, 04:57 PM	#38
scunan Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 298	My tank is running on a generator right now here in maine, I have not had power for over three hours now. Oh yeah i hokked up the computer too lol

01/18/2006, 05:01 PM	#39
pfish Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 289	I put in a 12 kw natural gas fired unit in, made by kholler. It automatically switches when it senses the power going down and switches back when the power comes back. Once a week it self tests. It switches so fast that I don't even have to set the clocks. It powers the whole house and is wired into the main fuse box. $8,500 installed, sounds like a lot but I feel it is worth it to save my 240 gal reef with all the time and money I have into that, plus it's pretty convenient for the rest of the house.

01/18/2006, 05:22 PM	#40
unsane Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 217	If you pull the meter base you should be able to back feed worry free correct?

01/18/2006, 05:29 PM	#41
mike89t Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chandler, Az Posts: 1,889	My dad just brought me his 300W Honda generator that he never uses anymore. Should be enough to keep the water circulating and a small heater on! This thing is ultra quiet! __________________ Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. Current Tank Info: Sold my 150G reef tank. :^(

01/18/2006, 05:33 PM	#42
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Not correct.As I stated before you are still bonded or grounded to the power grid. If you are out of phase or polarity you could still backfeed onto the power grid. It is illegal in all the utilities I know of to backfeed your home with out properly installed and inspected transfer switch.

01/19/2006, 11:18 AM	#43
davidgottlieb Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 647	Ok. So even if you have a transfer switch you still have to tell that transfer switch to transfer right? __________________ View Everything About My Reef At - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx Current Tank Info: View Everything About My Tank Here - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx

01/19/2006, 11:38 AM	#44
conda Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Birchrunville, Pennsylvania Posts: 538	My setup is like JimR described. I have a twist lock box that takes the power into a subpanel. This sub panel has six switches with three settings-Main, Off, and Gen. When the power is on, these six switches are in the Main setting receiving power from the main power source. When the power is off and using the generator, I need to switch them to the Gen setting. This directly feeds each circuit. No back feeding here. When the power comes back on, those circuits I have set to Gen get no main power until I switch them back.

01/19/2006, 12:33 PM	#47
davidgottlieb Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 647	Yeah. See that's like $7,000 right there. I don't see any reason in buying a manual transfer switch when it's going to take the same effort in flipping off the main. __________________ View Everything About My Reef At - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx Current Tank Info: View Everything About My Tank Here - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx

01/19/2006, 12:49 PM	#48
PRC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 708	I think jeffbrig explained the transfer switch pretty well but there still seems to be some confusion. Basically, with a transfer switch (manual or automatic) your house can be connected to the utility OR the generator but never to both at the same time. It's a function of how the switch operates rather than being a function of whether or not you remember to flip the switch. If you don't flip the switch you don't get any power from your generator. While backfeeding may not be illegal in all places, it is most certainly against code to backfeed without an approved transfer switch. Which means, besides the danger of killing someone, if your house burns down the insurance company will wish you good luck instead of writing you a check.

01/19/2006, 01:27 PM	#49
davidgottlieb Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 647	Ok. How would one catch their house on fire by not using a transfer switch? __________________ View Everything About My Reef At - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx Current Tank Info: View Everything About My Tank Here - http://thegottliebclan.com/DavidsMarineAquarium/tabid/67/Default.aspx

01/19/2006, 02:49 PM	#50
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Just like I explained before. Even when your breaker is open you are still connected to the utility. You have 3 or 4 wires which include the grounding, a common and two seperate 120V corcuits which make up the 240V side. The breakers only disconnect to hot or load side but not the common or ground side so you still have a physical connection to the utility. If your polarity is not the same as the utilities you run the risk of blowing something up or electrocuting someone. By the same token when they heat their system back up they can send out of phase juice to your generator possibly blowing it up. A transfer switch either auto or manual is the only way to safely hook up to your entire house, otherwise just use extension cords to run certain things.